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Post by tunatamer on Dec 21, 2014 0:12:24 GMT -5
Please point me to where the manual says that DSD is not handled correctly direct and has to be converted to pcm for Dirac to be effective. I looked at the dirac manual and did not find that. Thanks! I have been working 7 days a week lately, so I didn't have much time to do the set up the way I would of liked. I just wanted to try it before I had to leave for work, so I put in the sacd dsd of pink Floyd dark side of the moon that I am very familiar with. I was so disappointed with how it sounded with dirac, and I thought about it all day at work as to what happened. When I got home, I read the manual and didn't realize that dirac will not work if my oppo was set to bitstream dsd digital so I set it for pcm and then set the xmc to auto, as the sacd is a multi channel mix. Let me tell you I was blown away with how great it sounded compared to before in pre-set1. I also didn't remember that dirac will only work in stereo mode, not reference or direct which I initially thought. I can't wait to set it up properly once I get my mic stand and have more time, but I am so happy the way it sounds right now. I loved my xmc-1 before and thought it sounded wonderful, but now it exceeded my expectations with dirac. This is one bad ass processor. Way to go emotiva!
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Post by adam631 on Dec 21, 2014 0:32:01 GMT -5
Look in the updated XMC manual on page 19. It clearly states that dsd has no bass management or other processing. I was initially really disappointed in that as my oppo supports dsd direct, however once I played the pcm signal that has dirac processing enabled, there was such an improvement in the sound I was hearing that I could care less about dsd now
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Post by unclegit on Dec 21, 2014 0:48:19 GMT -5
Dirac in my room is a massive win.
Unbelievable change - the sound is so much more immersive now - the first beach assault in Live, Die, Repeat is amazing. Where have you been all my life XMC-1 / Dirac ?
Dan can have his XMC-1 back - as soon as he can pry it from my cold dead hands....
The only thing is my bass is a lot lower than previous - I'm used to feeling the punch in the chest from my SVS sub - I had to dial it down to -18 DB on the back panel on the sub to get it low enough to calibrate.
The XMC-1 with Dirac really is all it was promised to be and more.
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Post by ansat on Dec 21, 2014 1:04:04 GMT -5
So far I LOVE it!! I have ran Dirac about 4 or 5 times so far just moving speakers around and playing with crossover points.The detail and sound stage are just so much better.The only issue so far is running my 3 subs, I know this not ideal but 3 is what I have to work with. I use the front 2 for music as they are a horn type design (Wo32's)and use the 15 inch Def Tec for movies.I love the tip about running all together for Dirac to measure!! Going to try that soon, if Dirac can work my weird sub problem out I will be totally impressed!!!! What all options do you have for outboard time alignment. Any phase knobs? Tony
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Post by ansat on Dec 21, 2014 1:19:50 GMT -5
Dirac in my room is a massive win. Unbelievable change - the sound is so much more immersive now - the first beach assault in Live, Die, Repeat is amazing. Where have you been all my life XMC-1 / Dirac ? Dan can have his XMC-1 back - as soon as he can pry it from my cold dead hands.... The only thing is my bass is a lot lower than previous - I'm used to feeling the punch in the chest from my SVS sub - I had to dial it down to -18 DB on the back panel on the sub to get it low enough to calibrate. The XMC-1 with Dirac really is all it was promised to be and more. As long as you have one sub turning the gain back up on the sub will only effect crossover points. If your sub has dsp, then you want to boost 40-60hz to get that chest punch back. My laymen scale Stomach grumbling \ gut wrenching bass is 40hz and lower. punch in the chest is usually 40-60hz Ear popping is usually 60+ Remember if you add gain back to the sub, you will shift a relatively flat curve up. This will also add a hump to your crossover point (making it more pronounced). Since we have no dsp options after dirac, care should be taken not to over do it Tony
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Post by unclegit on Dec 21, 2014 4:14:37 GMT -5
Yea it's an SVS SB13 Ultra so it has all kinds of bells and whistles.
I'll probably spring for the full version of Dirac when it arrives for a more controllable target curve.
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Post by bitzerjdb on Dec 21, 2014 7:47:08 GMT -5
How does it sound....one word, Excellent - my HT never sounded better. My room is a sonic nightmare (open doorways, glass, fireplace, etc.). Dirac did it's magic and it is amazing....even my wife commented that she didn't have to ask me "what did they say" during the movie.
Summary, tight base, clear vocals, excellent sound field.
The change reminds me of when I first connected a DVD player to my old Rear Projection TV. First comment, wow, I didn't know the TV could produce an image that looked so good....TV and VHS really stinks!
Dirac is the real deal...it works!
FYI - My system is a 7.1 system
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Post by geebo on Dec 21, 2014 9:54:46 GMT -5
Please point me to where the manual says that DSD is not handled correctly direct and has to be converted to pcm for Dirac to be effective. I looked at the dirac manual and did not find that. Thanks! I have been working 7 days a week lately, so I didn't have much time to do the set up the way I would of liked. I just wanted to try it before I had to leave for work, so I put in the sacd dsd of pink Floyd dark side of the moon that I am very familiar with. I was so disappointed with how it sounded with dirac, and I thought about it all day at work as to what happened. When I got home, I read the manual and didn't realize that dirac will not work if my oppo was set to bitstream dsd digital so I set it for pcm and then set the xmc to auto, as the sacd is a multi channel mix. Let me tell you I was blown away with how great it sounded compared to before in pre-set1. I also didn't remember that dirac will only work in stereo mode, not reference or direct which I initially thought. I can't wait to set it up properly once I get my mic stand and have more time, but I am so happy the way it sounds right now. I loved my xmc-1 before and thought it sounded wonderful, but now it exceeded my expectations with dirac. This is one bad ass processor. Way to go emotiva! If you bitstream DSD the XMC will decode and play it just fine but there is no processing available including PEQ and Dirac. It's in the XMC manual, not the Dirac manual. The XMC-1 offers audiophile quality playback of DSD audio (when received via HDMI from an SACD or a DSD audio file), which bypasses all processing for the most accurate audio rendition possible....and also: Because DSD digital audio cannot be processed in the normal way, and because most purists who choose to listen to unconverted DSD content prefer to avoid any and all conversions and processing, the playback options for DSD content on the XMC-1 are limited. Two channel DSD content may be played in modes equivalent to Stereo and All Stereo, with no bass management or other processing. Surround Sound DSD content may be played in its original 5.1 channels, or the XMC-1 can be configured to duplicate the Surround Channels into the Rear Surround Channels (if you have a 7.1 or 7.2 system), also with no bass management or other processing.
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Post by barrak on Dec 21, 2014 15:50:53 GMT -5
I have used the Tact room EQ system for years, but the company went bust. The XDM-1 has replaced the Tact in my system since September, and I am impressed with it by itself, but I surely did miss the room EQ. Once I got used to it, I never turned it off. Now the Dirac system has been up and running for two whole days, so I only have first impressions, but they are generally quite favorable. Better noise floor and EQ capability. Sucks power like crazy (and I have 570 RMS watts per channel). It seems just barely enough. A lot of folks will need new amps. I will be happier when I can draw my own curves and switch them on the fly. The stock Dirac curve is very good (modeled on Peter Walker's slope), but like some others, I have bumped the bass up a couple of db. A bit of patience, and I look forward to zeroing in on my specific room and equipment problems and getting back to using three curves. Sources: MacMini, Sota Turntable/Souther Amp: Wyred4Sound ST-1000 digital Pre: Emotiva XMC-1 Analog Pre: Music Reference RM-5 (tube) Speakers: Soundlab Aura (modified) Sub:RythmiK F15 Try adding some gain in the Dirac Speaker set to get your headroom back. Your speaker RMS rating is based on a full signal output and since dirac attuniated all the signals, your no longer getting the power level you were. Tony Another possible explanation that applied to me once is, I had a huge room mode that shook my flimsily hung ceiling and dictated my peak volume setting. Tact tamed that boom and I managed to raise the volume further to enjoy full movie dynamics. I bet my amps worked a lot harder then.
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Post by barrak on Dec 21, 2014 15:59:54 GMT -5
I have used the Tact room EQ system for years, but the company went bust. The XDM-1 has replaced the Tact in my system since September, and I am impressed with it by itself, but I surely did miss the room EQ. Once I got used to it, I never turned it off. Now the Dirac system has been up and running for two whole days, so I only have first impressions, but they are generally quite favorable. Better noise floor and EQ capability. Sucks power like crazy (and I have 570 RMS watts per channel). It seems just barely enough. A lot of folks will need new amps. I will be happier when I can draw my own curves and switch them on the fly. The stock Dirac curve is very good (modeled on Peter Walker's slope), but like some others, I have bumped the bass up a couple of db. A bit of patience, and I look forward to zeroing in on my specific room and equipment problems and getting back to using three curves. Sources: MacMini, Sota Turntable/Souther Amp: Wyred4Sound ST-1000 digital Pre: Emotiva XMC-1 Analog Pre: Music Reference RM-5 (tube) Speakers: Soundlab Aura (modified) Sub:RythmiK F15 Another Tactician, I see. Which unit did you have? Would like to hear your impression on how Dirac compares to Tact. I still have my Tact RCS 2.0 and TCS-II, but they're half a world away and the TCS needs a new power board. Luckily, it's outsourced and still available. I hear you regarding missing editing your own curves. I will also miss the TCS feature that allowed the user to cross any channel to any other channel... I actually set my old HT in a 5.3 configuration!!! Dual mono subs for the LFE and stereo subs for bass management.
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Post by barrak on Dec 21, 2014 16:11:22 GMT -5
A flat curve takes a while to get used to. Unfortunately, lively and accurate do not go hand and hand. I always recommend leaving the corrections in place for at least a good week before making final decisions. But as always, to each his own. Tony Thx for the comment. I think it's a good idea to give it some time, and you're right - my preset is lively, but probably not accurate. There is a reason why Tact used to provide a host of preset target curves with varying degrees of bass humps. Try boosting the bass for now, and if you like what you hear then maybe Dirac Full is in your future. That's my plan any way.
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Post by total2727 on Dec 21, 2014 19:16:44 GMT -5
What all options do you have for outboard time alignment. Any phase knobs? TonyI only have adjustment on the Def Tec, phase, crossover,gain. The WO32 are passive being powered by upa200 from my XMC
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Post by ansat on Dec 21, 2014 19:54:22 GMT -5
Tony, I only have adjustment on the Def Tech, phase, crossover,gain. The WO32 are passive being powered by upa200 from my XMC Not a whole lot of options then. but dirac seems to do best, with just 1 sub from what I seen. With my three subs, I was able to get good results summing them into 1 output. For yours, you would sum then phase adjust for max output. Tony
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Post by samujohn on Dec 21, 2014 20:20:07 GMT -5
Sources: MacMini, Sota Turntable/Souther Amp: Wyred4Sound ST-1000 digital Pre: Emotiva XMC-1 Analog Pre: Music Reference RM-5 (tube) or Emotiva XPS-1 Speakers: Soundlab Aura (modified) Sub:RythmiK F15
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Post by samujohn on Dec 21, 2014 20:37:44 GMT -5
Another Tactician, I see. Which unit did you have? Would like to hear your impression on how Dirac compares to Tact. I still have my Tact RCS 2.0 Hi Barrak, I started with the RCS 2.0 paired with a Conrad /Johnson SS amp. Later,I bought a Tact 2150XDM Digital Integrated amplifier which sounded cleaner with my Acoustat 2+2's, but not with my next speakers, which were Soundlabs M-1's. Long story short, I liked what the Tact did, but the interface was crazy hard to set up. The Dirac is much easier to install and seems to fill the big valleys- like the floor bounce- better. Until I get the full version I cannot make reasonable judgments about its effectiveness potential, but since Boz is gone, we have little choice.
Sources: MacMini, Sota Turntable/Souther Amp: Wyred4Sound ST-1000 digital Pre: Emotiva XMC-1 Analog Pre: Music Reference RM-5 (tube) or Emotiva XPS-1 Speakers: Soundlab Aura (modified) Sub:RythmiK F15
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Post by barrak on Dec 22, 2014 11:02:30 GMT -5
Another Tactician, I see. Which unit did you have? Would like to hear your impression on how Dirac compares to Tact. I still have my Tact RCS 2.0 Hi Barrak, I started with the RCS 2.0 paired with a Conrad /Johnson SS amp. Later,I bought a Tact 2150XDM Digital Integrated amplifier which sounded cleaner with my Acoustat 2+2's, but not with my next speakers, which were Soundlabs M-1's. Long story short, I liked what the Tact did, but the interface was crazy hard to set up. The Dirac is much easier to install and seems to fill the big valleys- like the floor bounce- better. Until I get the full version I cannot make reasonable judgments about its effectiveness potential, but since Boz is gone, we have little choice. Totally agree... Tact room correction was powerful but a beast to use, especially balancing the sub/LFE levels. We did learn a lot from it, though. For example, while Dirac's test tone calibration is user friendly and ensures weakest speaker protection, it does not touch on the possibility that matching the weakest speaker capability could bring down significantly the dynamic range of the entire system. If I had tiny surrounds, I would rather have them bypassed than be part of the room correction, for this reason. Heck... some users with excellent speakers and rooms would rather have room correction applied to the subs exlusively or to only sub-200Hz. I t would be nice of Emotiva/Dirac would allow such selectivity with level matching. The lack of bass-boosted target curves in the basic version could also turn off the uninitiated HT user. I truly believe that Emotiva would serve its interest best if they ditched the basic version, or at least give the user the option of music vs. movie automated target curves.
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Post by jjkessler on Dec 22, 2014 11:35:54 GMT -5
What is the cost to upgrade to the full Dirac Live version?
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Post by DellaDog on Dec 22, 2014 11:36:16 GMT -5
Another Tactician, I see. Which unit did you have? Would like to hear your impression on how Dirac compares to Tact. I still have my Tact RCS 2.0 Hi Barrak, I started with the RCS 2.0 paired with a Conrad /Johnson SS amp. Later,I bought a Tact 2150XDM Digital Integrated amplifier which sounded cleaner with my Acoustat 2+2's, but not with my next speakers, which were Soundlabs M-1's. Long story short, I liked what the Tact did, but the interface was crazy hard to set up. The Dirac is much easier to install and seems to fill the big valleys- like the floor bounce- better. Until I get the full version I cannot make reasonable judgments about its effectiveness potential, but since Boz is gone, we have little choice. Totally agree... Tact room correction was powerful but a beast to use, especially balancing the sub/LFE levels. We did learn a lot from it, though. For example, while Dirac's test tone calibration is user friendly and ensures weakest speaker protection, it does not touch on the possibility that matching the weakest speaker capability could bring down significantly the dynamic range of the entire system. If I had tiny surrounds, I would rather have them bypassed than be part of the room correction, for this reason. Heck... some users with excellent speakers and rooms would rather have room correction applied to the subs exlusively or to only sub-200Hz. I t would be nice of Emotiva/Dirac would allow such selectivity with level matching. The lack of bass-boosted target curves in the basic version could also turn off the uninitiated HT user. I truly believe that Emotiva would serve its interest best if they ditched the basic version, or at least give the user the option of music vs. movie automated target curves. Now that's something I didn't think about when running Dirac in my setup. I have a decent front 3 setup with a REL Storm III sub, but in wall surrounds. I decided that Dirac "tamed" my system way too much - maybe it was compensating for my challenged surrounds. I'm going to rerun it with just the front 3 & sub and see what I get. Thanks.
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Post by tubby on Dec 22, 2014 12:04:04 GMT -5
... For example, while Dirac's test tone calibration is user friendly and ensures weakest speaker protection, it does not touch on the possibility that matching the weakest speaker capability could bring down significantly the dynamic range of the entire system. If I had tiny surrounds, I would rather have them bypassed than be part of the room correction, for this reason. Heck... some users with excellent speakers and rooms would rather have room correction applied to the subs exlusively or to only sub-200Hz. I t would be nice of Emotiva/Dirac would allow such selectivity with level matching. The lack of bass-boosted target curves in the basic version could also turn off the uninitiated HT user. I truly believe that Emotiva would serve its interest best if they ditched the basic version, or at least give the user the option of music vs. movie automated target curves. Can you expand on this a bit. I don't have DIRAC yet but reviewing the manual and following the experience of others I don't see how the set up process protects the weakest speaker? or how that would limit dynamic range?
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Post by barrak on Dec 22, 2014 14:38:46 GMT -5
... For example, while Dirac's test tone calibration is user friendly and ensures weakest speaker protection, it does not touch on the possibility that matching the weakest speaker capability could bring down significantly the dynamic range of the entire system. If I had tiny surrounds, I would rather have them bypassed than be part of the room correction, for this reason. Heck... some users with excellent speakers and rooms would rather have room correction applied to the subs exlusively or to only sub-200Hz. I t would be nice of Emotiva/Dirac would allow such selectivity with level matching. The lack of bass-boosted target curves in the basic version could also turn off the uninitiated HT user. I truly believe that Emotiva would serve its interest best if they ditched the basic version, or at least give the user the option of music vs. movie automated target curves. Can you expand on this a bit. I don't have DIRAC yet but reviewing the manual and following the experience of others I don't see how the set up process protects the weakest speaker? or how that would limit dynamic range? I haven't received my key yet, so I'm drawing on my experience with Tact and from what I learned from the Emotiva/Dirac manual. Instead of going through a technical explanation (which would require me to brush up on my signal processing understanding, might be too boring for you, would probably leave you unconvinced, or simply, Dirac is implicitly compensating for this effect), let me suggest the following experiment (best way to gain experience, really). Start with a 2.1 setup with the sub gain maxed out. execute Dirac process from calibration to filter programming. While doing the calibration (page 15 of the Dirac manual), You'll most probably need to reduce the level of the hot sub. The manual appropriately guides you to reduce the sub level at the sub controls instead of at the on-screen volume control. Go against this recommendation for the sake of this experiment. What you did here is basically put your mains at a deficit of 6-12 dB, maybe a lot more depending on how powerful is your sub compared to your mains. This deficit is played out during the measurement phase, negatively affecting the S/N ratio of your mains' measurements. If Dirac is not smarter than Tact, this deficit might be carried over to the computed filters which would affect your system's dynamic range... meaning, the usable volume range on the XMC-1 when listening would be too narrow. Since I don't know how Dirac handle such a situation when level matching the mains and sub, I would caution against raising the XMC-1 volume too high to avoid the possibility of digital clipping or the sub's amplifier clipping.Next, repeat the process, this time following the Emotiva/Dirac manual when it comes to reducing the hot sub level, i.e., do it from the sub's gain control. Rerun the volume calibration-to-filter programming process and listen again to the corrected system. If Dirac is anything like Tact, you should be able to easily discern improvement in both loudness headroom and clarity of soft passages. The manual pays attention to this issue and properly mitigates it for sub integration. It doesn't say what needs to be done (if any), when you have a mixture of speakers in the room. You can live with non-optimal surrounds performance, but not with a compromized center speaker. To give you an idea, in my old setup I had B&W N802 for mains and a Klipsch RC-64 center speaker. After correction, vocals articulation suffered severely after Tact correction, to the point that I was doing much better with deleting the center speaker and splitting its signal between the mains (phantom center). The N802's were a beast.
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