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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 22, 2014 15:07:22 GMT -5
Sucks power like crazy (and I have 570 RMS watts per channel). It seems just barely enough. A lot of folks will need new amps. I've read this comment a few times form a few people and it doesn't make sense to me. If the average volume is say 75 db before Dirac correction and after correction it is still 75 db then the amp/s shouldn't be working any harder. Dirac is simply lessening the higher volume frequencies while increasing the lower volume frequencies. Net there should be no difference. Unless we turn the volume up because it sounds better due to the superior/more even spread of frequency reproduction. Or am I missing something? Merry Xmas Gary
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Post by barrak on Dec 22, 2014 15:19:15 GMT -5
... For example, while Dirac's test tone calibration is user friendly and ensures weakest speaker protection, it does not touch on the possibility that matching the weakest speaker capability could bring down significantly the dynamic range of the entire system. If I had tiny surrounds, I would rather have them bypassed than be part of the room correction, for this reason. Heck... some users with excellent speakers and rooms would rather have room correction applied to the subs exlusively or to only sub-200Hz. I t would be nice of Emotiva/Dirac would allow such selectivity with level matching. The lack of bass-boosted target curves in the basic version could also turn off the uninitiated HT user. I truly believe that Emotiva would serve its interest best if they ditched the basic version, or at least give the user the option of music vs. movie automated target curves. Can you expand on this a bit. I don't have DIRAC yet but reviewing the manual and following the experience of others I don't see how the set up process protects the weakest speaker? or how that would limit dynamic range? Sorry... forgot to answer the bit about protecting the weakest speaker. I actually take what I said back. This speaker protection is taking place in the correction computing phase, not the measurement phase, and in three different ways: 1) limiting frequency extension of target curves, 2) only partial correction of sharp dips, and 3) level matching the different speaker measurements by attenuating strong performer rather than boosting weak performers, with overall loss of digital dynamic range if the performance gap is too wide. Again, that's how Tact behaved. I'm yet to have personal experience with Dirac.
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Post by jmilton on Dec 22, 2014 15:20:39 GMT -5
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Post by barrak on Dec 22, 2014 15:38:38 GMT -5
Sucks power like crazy (and I have 570 RMS watts per channel). It seems just barely enough. A lot of folks will need new amps. I've read this comment a few times form a few people and it doesn't make sense to me. If the average volume is say 75 db before Dirac correction and after correction it is still 75 db then the amp/s shouldn't be working any harder. Dirac is simply lessening the higher volume frequencies while increasing the lower volume frequencies. Net there should be no difference. Unless we turn the volume up because it sounds better due to the superior/more even spread of frequency reproduction. Or am I missing something? Merry Xmas Gary Suppose you have a very capable full range speaker that, due to room interaction is putting out an elevated output 10-15 dB higher between 100-300Hz compared to the rest of the spectrum. Subjectively, you set your volume control to where its loud enough for you based on the 100-300Hz segment giving you, say, a perceived/measured 80 dB SPL. Now, after room correction, this hump is brought down in level to the rest of the speaker's spectrum. You would then naturally raise the volume by those 10-15 dB to get that same 80 dB SPL... except now the entire spectrum is raised by those 10-15 dB. The amp would probaby need to triple its power output to keep up with you. This, and what I said in my two previous posts is the reason why I opted for Seaton Catalyst-12 for LCR, each with dual 12" woofers and 2,000 Watts of internal tri-amplification.
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 22, 2014 16:22:02 GMT -5
I've read this comment a few times form a few people and it doesn't make sense to me. If the average volume is say 75 db before Dirac correction and after correction it is still 75 db then the amp/s shouldn't be working any harder. Dirac is simply lessening the higher volume frequencies while increasing the lower volume frequencies. Net there should be no difference. Unless we turn the volume up because it sounds better due to the superior/more even spread of frequency reproduction. Or am I missing something? Suppose you have a very capable full range speaker that, due to room interaction is putting out an elevated output 10-15 dB higher between 100-300Hz compared to the rest of the spectrum. Subjectively, you set your volume control to where its loud enough for you based on the 100-300Hz segment giving you, say, a perceived/measured 80 dB SPL. Now, after room correction, this hump is brought down in level to the rest of the speaker's spectrum. You would then naturally raise the volume by those 10-15 dB to get that same 80 dB SPL... except now the entire spectrum is raised by those 10-15 dB. The amp would probaby need to triple its power output to keep up with you. This, and what I said in my two previous posts is the reason why I opted for Seaton Catalyst-12 for LCR, each with dual 12" woofers and 2,000 Watts of internal tri-amplification. Sure, but the presumption is that the 100 to 300 hz segment is dominant in any sound track or music, which it typically isn't. For example the human voice is around 300 Hz to 3400 Hz, far too wide a spread for an isolated acoustic bias. I'll admit my view is affected by the assumption that some attempt would be made to even out any ridiculous acoustic emphasis prior to using ay room correction software. As good as Dirac is I personally wouldn't be trying to get it to fix a 15 db hole or bump in the room's frequency response. Merry Xmas Gary
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Post by barrak on Dec 22, 2014 16:34:53 GMT -5
Suppose you have a very capable full range speaker that, due to room interaction is putting out an elevated output 10-15 dB higher between 100-300Hz compared to the rest of the spectrum. Subjectively, you set your volume control to where its loud enough for you based on the 100-300Hz segment giving you, say, a perceived/measured 80 dB SPL. Now, after room correction, this hump is brought down in level to the rest of the speaker's spectrum. You would then naturally raise the volume by those 10-15 dB to get that same 80 dB SPL... except now the entire spectrum is raised by those 10-15 dB. The amp would probaby need to triple its power output to keep up with you. This, and what I said in my two previous posts is the reason why I opted for Seaton Catalyst-12 for LCR, each with dual 12" woofers and 2,000 Watts of internal tri-amplification. Sure, but the presumption is that the 100 to 300 hz segment is dominant in any sound track or music, which it typically isn't. For example the human voice is around 300 Hz to 3400 Hz, far too wide a spread for an isolated acoustic bias. I'll admit my view is affected by the assumption that some attempt would be made to even out any ridiculous acoustic emphasis prior to using ay room correction software. As good as Dirac is I personally wouldn't be trying to get it to fix a 15 db hole or bump in the room's frequency response. Merry Xmas Gary Absolutely... When possible, room correction should be used as a precision instrument, not a sledge hammer. The good news is, when a sledge hammer is needed (as in Sauron99's man cave on the other thread), a quality room correction product such as Dirac's or Tact's, coupled with a huge speaker/amp dynamic reserve, is certainly up to the task.
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Post by SticknStones on Dec 22, 2014 16:37:54 GMT -5
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 22, 2014 16:42:37 GMT -5
What is the cost to upgrade to the full Dirac Live version? They have said $99, but it is not yet available. Mark
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Post by jjkessler on Dec 22, 2014 16:45:11 GMT -5
That seems pretty reasonable compared to what the gear all cost
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Post by barrak on Dec 22, 2014 17:44:00 GMT -5
Okay, Here is my Dirac run from today. It sounds great but takes way more volume than before and I have to ratchet up the tone control for bass to about 5db. It sounds great. But I am still learning about curves. Would I want the upgrade to push the bass up a bit? What is your read? Settings: Fronts Large - B&W 802, Sub: Dual Mono, All other speakers set to small. Nice looking impulse response for the mains. From all the examples I've see so far, it seems that Dirac is limiting correction boosts to 10 dB max, hence the dip in the after-curve at 70 Hz. A re-positioning of the 802's might fill up that nasty hole. Either that or get some real subs and cross the 802's around 80-100 Hz. By the way, my 802's produced very similar curves to yours beyond 2 KHz, so don't bother trying to even them out up there. Quick questions: How much more you have to raise the volume to get similar sound as before (in dB, and without bass boost)? By how much did you have to reduce the sub(s) gain (if any) during the calibration phase?
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Post by samujohn on Dec 22, 2014 18:54:13 GMT -5
Sources: MacMini, Sota Turntable/Souther Amp: Wyred4Sound ST-1000 digital Pre: Emotiva XMC-1 Analog Pre: Music Reference RM-5 (tube) or Emotiva XPS-1 Speakers: Soundlab Aura (modified) Sub:RythmiK F15
Hi Gary, I wish I knew more of the technical answers, but basic math is some help. Amplifier power is not arithmetical, but logarithmic, so twice one is not two, but ten. I am old enough to remember when power amps had about twelve watts, and the biggest McIntosh amp on the market was fifty watts. Horn speakers can be well over one hundred DBSPL efficient, while my Soundlab electrostats are down in the seventies. Lots of room to screw up the math with numbers like these. That is why Dirac is smart to limit folks to a preset curve, plus limits on corrections until they get a little experience. When you start drawing you own graphs things will get complicated in a hurry, and the solutions are often not obvious. The other thing to keep in mind is that we are dealing with human perception, not just math. That subject can get dense quickly.
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Post by SticknStones on Dec 22, 2014 19:49:46 GMT -5
Okay, Here is my Dirac run from today. It sounds great but takes way more volume than before and I have to ratchet up the tone control for bass to about 5db. It sounds great. But I am still learning about curves. Would I want the upgrade to push the bass up a bit? What is your read? Settings: Fronts Large - B&W 802, Sub: Dual Mono, All other speakers set to small. Nice looking impulse response for the mains. From all the examples I've see so far, it seems that Dirac is limiting correction boosts to 10 dB max, hence the dip in the after-curve at 70 Hz. A re-positioning of the 802's might fill up that nasty hole. Either that or get some real subs and cross the 802's around 80-100 Hz. By the way, my 802's produced very similar curves to yours beyond 2 KHz, so don't bother trying to even them out up there. Quick questions: How much more you have to raise the volume to get similar sound as before (in dB, and without bass boost)? By how much did you have to reduce the sub(s) gain (if any) during the calibration phase? Hi and thanks for the response. I am playing the XMC around -11 to +4 where before I would be -20's as loud. In terms of the subs I had each one at about 1:00 and now they are between 9:00 and 10:00. With regard to the nasty hole at 70db I cannot move the 802's. We are in the process of selling our house and I will have the audio in the basement at the new house and could probably test again and see if I need new subs. I must say that the Dirac is a game changer and I could not part with it now that I have been properly introduced.
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Post by moodyman on Dec 22, 2014 20:17:06 GMT -5
From all the examples I've see so far, it seems that Dirac is limiting correction boosts to 10 dB max, hence the dip in the after-curve at 70 Hz. A re-positioning of the 802's might fill up that nasty hole. Either that or get some real subs and cross the 802's around 80-100 Hz. By the way, my 802's produced very similar curves to yours beyond 2 KHz, so don't bother trying to even them out up there. You can't boost your way out of a true room null (i.e. "nasty hole")..no matter how big your amps...hence the 10 dB boost limitation. Your gonna need to change your listening position or move your speakers..
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Post by ansat on Dec 22, 2014 20:56:54 GMT -5
From all the examples I've see so far, it seems that Dirac is limiting correction boosts to 10 dB max, hence the dip in the after-curve at 70 Hz. A re-positioning of the 802's might fill up that nasty hole. Either that or get some real subs and cross the 802's around 80-100 Hz. By the way, my 802's produced very similar curves to yours beyond 2 KHz, so don't bother trying to even them out up there. You can't boost your way out of a true room null (i.e. "nasty hole")..no matter how big your amps...hence the 10 dB boost limitation. Your gonna need to change your listening position or move your speakers.. Also remember that dirac is showing the average of 9 posirions. That null might not be at your listening position Tony
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Post by SticknStones on Dec 23, 2014 20:36:37 GMT -5
I am going to do another filter set tomorrow, toe in the speakers a bit more and tweak the gain and output. I was listening to music too loud today and my left ear hurts. I am loving it but pushed it too far today.
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xlr8ed
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Post by xlr8ed on Dec 24, 2014 1:07:37 GMT -5
My Dirac experience mirrors many of the sentiments noted across several threads. How does it sound?- in a word, brilliant!
- a noticeable improvement in clarity
- a noticeably wider soundstage
- a decrease in volume (which was countered by adding ~5db to each channel)
- a noticeable reduction in bass. This is obvious in the graphs and I will tackle this either by 1) upgrading to the full version of Dirac (when available) or 2) changing my system to 2.2 channel (as EACH of the Triton One towers has a 1600w active sub that can be run independently from the mids/tweeter) or 3) turn up the bass level on the speaker directly.
Set up experience- applying the v2.0 firmware was a straightforward affair, although getting audio pass through to work on standby took several reboots (ref: emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/39664/xmc-video-on-standby-pass?page=4)
- the XMC-1 automatically obtained an IP without issue (192.168.1.127)
- installing Dirac Live LE and connecting to XMC-1 via wifi from my laptop went without a hitch the first time. On a one subsequent retry, Dirac Live LE failed to find the XMC-1, however rebooting the XMC-1 and my laptop resolved this.
- my location has a lot of ambient noise, so I dialed back the gain to ~0.
- one side of the listening room has floor to ceiling windows which induced gain on that side (see graphs), so I had to dial back the overall volume to prevent clipping
- the measurement process was simple and took ~15 mins to complete all 9 measurements. Tip: be sure to look at the front and top microphone views within the Dirac software as the rear measurements height are greater than the those at the front. The Dirac tutorial video (from Lonnie/Andrew) does a great job at explaining the process (ref: emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/xmc-1)
MeasurementsBefore EQAfter EQFeature Request- the ability to set Dirac sweep volume for the subwoofer independently to the volume for the mains. Rationale - When I configured my system as 2.2 channel, I found the subs were too 'hot' despite being turned to their minimum setting. I had to dial the overall Dirac sweep volume right back to prevent clipping, however this resulted in the mains being too quiet to be effectively measured.
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Dec 24, 2014 8:34:17 GMT -5
Okay, Here is my Dirac run from today. It sounds great but takes way more volume than before and I have to ratchet up the tone control for bass to about 5db. It sounds great. But I am still learning about curves. Would I want the upgrade to push the bass up a bit? What is your read? Settings: Fronts Large - B&W 802, Sub: Dual Mono, All other speakers set to small. I'm getting what I consider to be weak bass as well. Mids and highs are really good, though. The tone controls (or boosting the subs' volume) makes it better but I'm still waiting for the full version so I can edit the curve as I like it.
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Post by ludi on Dec 31, 2014 9:43:12 GMT -5
Yesterday I received my XMC-1, one day ahead of schedule. I was able to get it installed and I only did the basic setting. The setup was easy and I met no issue. The way the triggers work is an improvement compared to the UMC-1.
I have not yet received the Dirac license, all the listening I've done is without any tweaks or filter settings. The XMC-1 replaces my UMC-1, and the first impressions are positive. Not a difference of day and night, but definitely better. It sounds more detailed, more precise. Not sure if an how much improvements the Dirac will bring, I'm already very happy with the current sound.
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