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Post by TheTerrorBeyond on Dec 17, 2014 21:15:26 GMT -5
I set up Dirac this evening and configured everything using the nine microphone placements, etc. Here's the thing... the volume of my system was greatly reduced after running Dirac and exporting the filters. In addition to the volume being greatly reduced, the system is now overly bright. I cannot easily A-B between Preset 1 and Dirac, as Preset 1 is far, far louder than Dirac.
The speaker readings were done using a microphone stand to ensure that the same height was used for each relative position.
Any ideas? What am I doing wrong?
My setup includes the following:
XMC-1 (naturally)
Enlightened Audio Designs Powermaster 2000
Definitive Technology BP3000TL (L - R)
Definitive Technology CLR3000 (center)
Definitive Technology BPVX-P (surrounds)
Sunfire True Sub Signature (sub)
XMC-1 is connected to the amplifier with AudioQuest Anaconda XLR cables.
Sources are connected to the XMC-1 with AudioQuest Carbon HDMI cables.
Speakers are connected with AudioQuest Gibraltar cables. All speakers are bi-wired.
Individual subwoofers are in each speaker and the sub amp is connected with analog Audioquest Viper RCA cables.
My environment is a large-ish room of about 20'x20' or thereabouts.
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Post by viper6 on Dec 17, 2014 21:23:51 GMT -5
I haven't been able to set mine up yet, but I have seen multiple instances where the recommendation was NOT to have each measurement at the same height.
I have also seen the issue of volume come up here before, and I think the answer was that lower relative volume is a necessary consequence of the correction, depending on the filters created.
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Post by total2727 on Dec 17, 2014 21:35:43 GMT -5
I haven't been able to set mine up yet, but I have seen multiple instances where the recommendation was NOT to have each measurement at the same height. I have also seen the issue of volume come up here before, and I think the answer was that lower relative volume is a necessary consequence of the correction, depending on the filters created. Just got done with my set up, and yes the pic shows different heights for all the positions and that is the way I measured. I did notice a drop in volume with dirac vs preset 1 but is was not much. But WOW!! Dirac really did a outstanding job on my set up. Move the height of the mic and I think you will see a big change.
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Post by rogerlons on Dec 18, 2014 9:13:27 GMT -5
On my rig, the Dirac setup is about 3-4 dB quieter. Sounds great though!
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Post by deewan on Dec 18, 2014 9:25:19 GMT -5
+1... The nine Dirac measurements should NOT be taken at the same height.
Another thing to consider as I've run across this myself on more than one occasion, the system could seem overly bright to your ears now, but the onscreen Dirac graphs should prove what you are hearing is nearly flat across the board. I'm not saying this is the case, but your setup and room prior to Dirac could have been so bad with higher frequencies that now Dirac has fixed it, the sound seems 'wrong'.
I EQ'ed a room for a friend 5-6 years ago, he also changed speakers at the same time. When I finished he HATED the sound. Using freq sweeps, REW, and a SPL meter I showed him his room was as flat as I could get it with the equipment he had. It just so happened his idea of great sound was from low-budget speakers in an overly dampened room with some horrific Audessey settings. The "auto" aided setup had him convinced that his bad sound was the golden standard and anything else was wrong. After a few days he mentioned he loved the new sound and details were finer than they had ever been before. Again, not saying this is the case, but could be a very minor factor.
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Post by TheTerrorBeyond on Dec 18, 2014 11:35:16 GMT -5
+1... The nine Dirac measurements should NOT be taken at the same height. Another thing to consider as I've run across this myself on more than one occasion, the system could seem overly bright to your ears now, but the onscreen Dirac graphs should prove what you are hearing is nearly flat across the board. I'm not saying this is the case, but your setup and room prior to Dirac could have been so bad with higher frequencies that now Dirac has fixed it, the sound seems 'wrong'. I EQ'ed a room for a friend 5-6 years ago, he also changed speakers at the same time. When I finished he HATED the sound. Using freq sweeps, REW, and a SPL meter I showed him his room was as flat as I could get it with the equipment he had. It just so happened his idea of great sound was from low-budget speakers in an overly dampened room with some horrific Audessey settings. The "auto" aided setup had him convinced that his bad sound was the golden standard and anything else was wrong. After a few days he mentioned he loved the new sound and details were finer than they had ever been before. Again, not saying this is the case, but could be a very minor factor. Well, my room could be problematic, but my equipment is certainly not "low-budget" by any stretch of the imagination. |
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Post by ansat on Dec 18, 2014 13:08:59 GMT -5
+1... The nine Dirac measurements should NOT be taken at the same height. Another thing to consider as I've run across this myself on more than one occasion, the system could seem overly bright to your ears now, but the onscreen Dirac graphs should prove what you are hearing is nearly flat across the board. I'm not saying this is the case, but your setup and room prior to Dirac could have been so bad with higher frequencies that now Dirac has fixed it, the sound seems 'wrong'. I EQ'ed a room for a friend 5-6 years ago, he also changed speakers at the same time. When I finished he HATED the sound. Using freq sweeps, REW, and a SPL meter I showed him his room was as flat as I could get it with the equipment he had. It just so happened his idea of great sound was from low-budget speakers in an overly dampened room with some horrific Audessey settings. The "auto" aided setup had him convinced that his bad sound was the golden standard and anything else was wrong. After a few days he mentioned he loved the new sound and details were finer than they had ever been before. Again, not saying this is the case, but could be a very minor factor. Well, my room could be problematic, but my equipment is certainly not "low-budget" by any stretch of the imagination. Can you post a screen capture of what dirac saw? If you saved your measurement, open Dirac and load your measurement. Click on filter Design and make sure that the before and after check marks are checked. Use the snipping tool in windows to snip that part of the screen. You should have something that looks similar to this  Tony |
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Post by deewan on Dec 18, 2014 15:03:33 GMT -5
Well, my room could be problematic, but my equipment is certainly not "low-budget" by any stretch of the imagination. Sorry if you took my comment that I was saying you had low budget anything. I didn't mean that way. Simply that my friend moved from low budget gear with terrible high freq reproduction to a good set of speakers with a tuned system and all of a sudden his system seemed bad to him. I'm guessing the mic locations and some room acoustics played havoc with your filters. |
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Post by TheTerrorBeyond on Dec 18, 2014 15:30:48 GMT -5
Well, my room could be problematic, but my equipment is certainly not "low-budget" by any stretch of the imagination. Sorry if you took my comment that I was saying you had low budget anything. I didn't mean that way. Simply that my friend moved from low budget gear with terrible high freq reproduction to a good set of speakers with a tuned system and all of a sudden his system seemed bad to him. I'm guessing the mic locations and some room acoustics played havoc with your filters. No worries... my room is a horrid mess. I need to set it up properly... and I need to redo the Dirac setup with different microphone heights. I looked at the top view, not the front view on the Dirac software and just moved the microphone to the set locations without moving them lower in the front (it appears that the front should be lower). I have to wait until people are out of the house, as I have three kids, a dog, and a wife who is downstairs doing laundry and all kinds of noisy stuff.  |
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Post by TheTerrorBeyond on Dec 18, 2014 15:32:48 GMT -5
Well, my room could be problematic, but my equipment is certainly not "low-budget" by any stretch of the imagination. Can you post a screen capture of what dirac saw? If you saved your measurement, open Dirac and load your measurement. Click on filter Design and make sure that the before and after check marks are checked. Use the snipping tool in windows to snip that part of the screen. You should have something that looks similar to this Tony I am going to redo the setup this evening when things get a little less noisy around here... and I am going to lower the microphone in the front positions. I didn't look at that view in the software before and just used the overhead view to find the positions... my fault there. |
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Post by ansat on Dec 18, 2014 15:34:33 GMT -5
Can you post a screen capture of what dirac saw? If you saved your measurement, open Dirac and load your measurement. Click on filter Design and make sure that the before and after check marks are checked. Use the snipping tool in windows to snip that part of the screen. You should have something that looks similar to this Tony I am going to redo the setup this evening when things get a little less noisy around here... and I am going to lower the microphone in the front positions. I didn't look at that view in the software before and just used the overhead view to find the positions... my fault there. Not all the front positions are lower. You will have some that are higher then the listening position and some that are lower. The only one at ear level is the first measurement. |
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Post by roadrebel on Dec 18, 2014 15:49:47 GMT -5
I will be able to compare with your result as soon as I get my kit/key. We may have some system specific concerns with our speakers of choice. I have the exact same hardware (minus the sunfire sub) with an additional set of Def tech surrounds for rears.
Bi-poles have been an issue for most room correction, I was hoping Dirac would possibly handle it better but Maybe not.
Are you running an LFE input to the 3000s? If so is it setup mono or stereo?
I suspect it might be a mess with the big 18" drivers run in both L and R channel sweeps and then again for LFE. This on top of the normal bi-pole speak arrangement as large as these.
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Post by ansat on Dec 18, 2014 15:57:49 GMT -5
I will be able to compare with your result as soon as I get my kit/key. We may have some system specific concerns with our speakers of choice. I have the exact same hardware (minus the sunfire sub) with an additional set of Def tech surrounds for rears. Bi-poles have been an issue for most room correction, I was hoping Dirac would possibly handle it better but Maybe not. Are you running an LFE input to the 3000s? If so is it setup mono or stereo? I suspect it might be a mess with the big 18" drivers run in both L and R channel sweeps and then again for LFE. This on top of the normal bi-pole speak arrangement as large as these. I think that the bipoles will be ok. You should not see any problems with the SPL measurement, but Dirac will not be able to do much with the impulse on 250hz and above. (rear firing speakers will prevent any help from dirac) But you should see the bass cleaned up on the mains. As for the BPVX-P - since the drivers wont interact much until the 2nd or 3rd reflection. I think those will eq nicely. Tony |
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Post by roadrebel on Dec 18, 2014 17:16:16 GMT -5
I will be able to compare with your result as soon as I get my kit/key. We may have some system specific concerns with our speakers of choice. I have the exact same hardware (minus the sunfire sub) with an additional set of Def tech surrounds for rears. Bi-poles have been an issue for most room correction, I was hoping Dirac would possibly handle it better but Maybe not. Are you running an LFE input to the 3000s? If so is it setup mono or stereo? I suspect it might be a mess with the big 18" drivers run in both L and R channel sweeps and then again for LFE. This on top of the normal bi-pole speak arrangement as large as these. I think that the bipoles will be ok. You should not see any problems with the SPL measurement, but Dirac will not be able to do much with the impulse on 250hz and above. (rear firing speakers will prevent any help from dirac) But you should see the bass cleaned up on the mains. As for the BPVX-P - since the drivers wont interact much until the 2nd or 3rd reflection. I think those will eq nicely. Tony I hope you are right, but with the 18" drivers/1000 watt amp in each unit being matrixed with LFE and speaker level via Linkwitz Riley crossover system between the subwoofers and the midrange/tweeter drivers is difficult at best. Now add in the potential issue as you have seen with dual subwoofers and Dirac I think it might be bumpy. In general they have a huge 20-30hz spike then a valley from 40-50hz before the second spike from 60-80. They are a bit muddy, especially if you try to run them in "mono". I have spent a fair amount of time filtering the combo to get it to balance well but still just isn't as clean. I have been waiting to see what I can do with Dirac before my next move which would be to just run the BP3000 fronts and a full range only and add in subs. I guess we will find out soon. |
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Post by ansat on Dec 18, 2014 17:31:06 GMT -5
I think that the bipoles will be ok. You should not see any problems with the SPL measurement, but Dirac will not be able to do much with the impulse on 250hz and above. (rear firing speakers will prevent any help from dirac) But you should see the bass cleaned up on the mains. As for the BPVX-P - since the drivers wont interact much until the 2nd or 3rd reflection. I think those will eq nicely. Tony I hope you are right, but with the 18" drivers/1000 watt amp in each unit being matrixed with LFE and speaker level via Linkwitz Riley crossover system between the subwoofers and the midrange/tweeter drivers is difficult at best. No add in the potential issue as you have seen with dual subwoofers and Dirac I think it might be bumpy. In general they have a huge 20-30hz spike then a valley from 40-50hz before the second spike from 60-80. They are a bit muddy, especially if you try to run them in "mono". I guess we will find out soon. I missed the part "Individual subwoofers are in each speaker and the sub amp is connected with analog Audioquest Viper RCA cables." Mixing in the LFE will make this a mess and adding a sunfire at the same time could hurt things even worse. I would suggest unplugging the LFE from the main speakers as the XMC has the extended bass option that should do the same thing. I would then recommend running dirac over again with this method. DefTech likes to crossover their subs in the 250 range, which a null in the prime vocal range would make things appear brighter. Tony |
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Post by roadrebel on Dec 18, 2014 19:43:18 GMT -5
Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread, but I think we can work through this together over time. This is a sweep of the LF speaker only with XMC set flat and built in subwoofer gain set at 1/2 for all sweeps. The three graphs are full range sweep,80hz cutoff and the sweep of the sub built in via LFE.  |
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Post by jking on Dec 18, 2014 20:01:53 GMT -5
I set up Dirac this evening and configured everything using the nine microphone placements, etc. Here's the thing... the volume of my system was greatly reduced after running Dirac and exporting the filters. In addition to the volume being greatly reduced, the system is now overly bright. I cannot easily A-B between Preset 1 and Dirac, as Preset 1 is far, far louder than Dirac. The speaker readings were done using a microphone stand to ensure that the same height was used for each relative position. Any ideas? What am I doing wrong? My setup includes the following: XMC-1 (naturally) Enlightened Audio Designs Powermaster 2000 Definitive Technology BP3000TL (L - R) Definitive Technology CLR3000 (center) Definitive Technology BPVX-P (surrounds) Sunfire True Sub Signature (sub) XMC-1 is connected to the amplifier with AudioQuest Anaconda XLR cables. Sources are connected to the XMC-1 with AudioQuest Carbon HDMI cables. Speakers are connected with AudioQuest Gibraltar cables. All speakers are bi-wired. Individual subwoofers are in each speaker and the sub amp is connected with analog Audioquest Viper RCA cables. My environment is a large-ish room of about 20'x20' or thereabouts. Just use the trim control which is under inputs I believe and bring the level back up a bit. |
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Post by wizardofoz on Dec 18, 2014 20:17:52 GMT -5
Like REW does the dirac interface have the option to take/save a screen image? If not then what is the sequence in windoze...so long since I have to use this os I can't remember
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Dec 18, 2014 20:19:42 GMT -5
I set up Dirac this evening and configured everything using the nine microphone placements, etc. Here's the thing... the volume of my system was greatly reduced after running Dirac and exporting the filters. In addition to the volume being greatly reduced, the system is now overly bright. I cannot easily A-B between Preset 1 and Dirac, as Preset 1 is far, far louder than Dirac. The speaker readings were done using a microphone stand to ensure that the same height was used for each relative position. Any ideas? What am I doing wrong? My setup includes the following: XMC-1 (naturally) Enlightened Audio Designs Powermaster 2000 Definitive Technology BP3000TL (L - R) Definitive Technology CLR3000 (center) Definitive Technology BPVX-P (surrounds) Sunfire True Sub Signature (sub) XMC-1 is connected to the amplifier with AudioQuest Anaconda XLR cables. Sources are connected to the XMC-1 with AudioQuest Carbon HDMI cables. Speakers are connected with AudioQuest Gibraltar cables. All speakers are bi-wired. Individual subwoofers are in each speaker and the sub amp is connected with analog Audioquest Viper RCA cables. My environment is a large-ish room of about 20'x20' or thereabouts. It can reduce the overall level of the system in order to balance out the system as a whole. This should not be a problem as the XMC has plenty of gain in it. I would re-run your test and position the mic correctly. Lonnie |
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Post by ansat on Dec 18, 2014 21:29:41 GMT -5
Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread, but I think we can work through this together over time. This is a sweep of the LF speaker only with XMC set flat and built in subwoofer gain set at 1/2 for all sweeps. The three graphs are full range sweep,80hz cutoff and the sweep of the sub built in via LFE. I still think it will be ok unless you run the LFE to them as well. Right now, The only successful method I have found for 2+ subs is with outboard dsp. Although we might want to take this over to my Dirac Measurements with REW thread as not to post a bunch of graphs in this one. Tony |
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