insightfulman
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Post by insightfulman on Mar 2, 2015 13:37:51 GMT -5
I have been running XSP-1 Gen 2 with it's built in phono preamp. I used to use it with Bellari VP 130 with Mullard tube but overall I liked the built in phono preamp on the XSP-1 better. My source is Marantz Tt-15s1 with Clearaudio Virtuoso wood MM cart and XPa-2 gen 2 amp and Magnepan 1.7 with dual REL Strata 3 subs.
Lately I've been noticing the bass response isn't as punchy or tight as I think it should be and the top end sounded bit crispy with lack of focus- all this fault of my new ERC-3 purchase which I'm loving :-)
I could totally live with this but the upgrade bug has bitten me and am thus looking for suggestions. I'm leaning towards something like this:
jolida jd9 mark2 factory upgraded
Musical Surroundings Nova 2
musical fidelity kW phono
Parasound JC-3
Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
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Post by stads77 on Mar 2, 2015 13:48:48 GMT -5
Ever thought of trying the Budgie Tube Phono pre with some upgrades tubes? I am really considering it these days.
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Post by drtrey3 on Mar 2, 2015 14:21:03 GMT -5
I have lusted after the Parasound JC-3 myself, so I feel your interest.
Trey
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insightfulman
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Post by insightfulman on Mar 2, 2015 14:51:23 GMT -5
stads77, yes, I used to have the Bellari VP130 which is a tube phono preamp and I rolled few tubes and eventually settled for Mullard reissue. But once I got XSP-1, I liked the overall presentation of its built in phono preamp better than the Bellari. But considering the Clearaudio cart that I have is about a $900 I think I dedicated phono stage would help but then it could all be wishful thinking.
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Post by brubacca on Mar 2, 2015 15:46:09 GMT -5
Since I like to have some tubes in my system I would recommend the Jolida Mk2 Upgrade. I know my dealer likes this pre as his recommendation for his Rega TT up to at least Rp6.
He also reps the Bellari phono pres and stated that the Jolida is a much better pre.
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Post by chaosrv on Mar 2, 2015 15:58:17 GMT -5
I have been debating on whether or not to "upgrade" my phono pre as well. So I will ask you the same questions I have been asking myself:
Where in the chain do you have your XSP? Are you using the HT Bypass (with the UMC connected to the XSP) or the output of the XSP to the UMC.
If you buy a new phono preamp, would you keep the XSP or sell it?
If you sell it you would then have to hook up your new phono stage to the UMC and if I am not mistaken, the bass management is in the digital domain. If you are spending this kind of money, I would expect analog bass management would be an important feature. That is why I haven't pulled the XSP out of my system yet in favor of an XPS-1 or something else connected to my XMC.
If I was to buy a new non-Emotiva phono stage, I would buy a Ray Samuels F-117 Nighthawk. (rechargeable) battery-operated mm/mc with a lot of gain & loading options. Best part, no dip switches!
I still might..but I'll almost certainly keep the XSP in the chain as well.
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Post by brubacca on Mar 2, 2015 16:07:27 GMT -5
I use a Lounge Audio LCR phono pre. I can't say that I have compared it to the XSP-1 or others, but the cost was right and the glowing reviews got me to spend my money there.
It does sound good with my 2M Blue.
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insightfulman
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Post by insightfulman on Mar 2, 2015 16:30:00 GMT -5
chaosrv: My turntable feeds into the XSP-1 which in turn connect to XPA-2 via XLR but it also connects to UMC-200 via XLR with HT Bypass mode. I'm leaning towards the JC3 because of XLR and the Musical Surroundings Nova 2 because of its battery power which intrigues me as I tend to listen to music quite loud on Sunday's :-) So with new phono preamp I'd keep the XSP-1 which I think is fantastic- I'm just not sure its built in preamp is the right match for my turntable/cartridge.
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Post by stads77 on Mar 2, 2015 16:43:35 GMT -5
I'll be honest, I did not find the XSP-1's phono stage any better then other 100-200 dollar stages I've used. I do think you will notice an improvement with any of your choices.
My system is very solid state and cold at times, so I'm debating adding some warmth to my records, which is why I'm considering the Budgie.
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insightfulman
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Post by insightfulman on Mar 6, 2015 0:52:01 GMT -5
I changed my mind and went after current models and after extensive research and listening sessions of the following phono preamps:
Musical Surroundings Nova II
Graham Slee Reflex M
Sutherland Engineering 20/20
SimAudioMoon
Luxman 200
I just ordered the Musical Surroundings Nova II. It should be here on Tuesday.
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Post by GreenKiwi on Mar 6, 2015 2:09:51 GMT -5
I'll be honest, I did not find the XSP-1's phono stage any better then other 100-200 dollar stages I've used. I do think you will notice an improvement with any of your choices. My system is very solid state and cold at times, so I'm debating adding some warmth to my records, which is why I'm considering the Budgie. Isn't the XSP-1's phono stage, effectively a 100-200 phono stage? They pulled it out into a separate box and it's selling for $150. |
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Post by plm on Mar 6, 2015 2:36:15 GMT -5
My picks would have been either the Jolida JD9 with upgrades (I have one that I've further upgraded to really step it up a level, and it's fantastic), or the Parasound JC3+. Of the Parasounds I'd go for the 3+ over the 3 in order to get all the loading options. That's one of the reasons I love the flexibility of the Jolida, and it has punch that you would associate with solid state rather than tube.
Did you get a chance to listen to to either of these before making your shortlist? I've been really keen to try the JC3+ in my system since I'm running a JC2 preamp right now.
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Post by stads77 on Mar 6, 2015 5:40:37 GMT -5
I'll be honest, I did not find the XSP-1's phono stage any better then other 100-200 dollar stages I've used. I do think you will notice an improvement with any of your choices. My system is very solid state and cold at times, so I'm debating adding some warmth to my records, which is why I'm considering the Budgie. Isn't the XSP-1's phono stage, effectively a 100-200 phono stage? They pulled it out into a separate box and it's selling for $150. Absolutely, it was not a dig at the phono stage, but rather my observation, to not expect it to do the work of a phono stage in the much higher range of cost. As it performs well on its own, but the real advantage to the preamp is in its stereo use, not so much phono. SO I say feel free to upgrade the phono stage performance by buying a better stand alone unit. IMHO |
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Post by vneal on Mar 6, 2015 8:02:57 GMT -5
I am looking for a Phono Pre upgrade. Pre $800 range
I don't want to mess with tubes
candidates?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 6, 2015 10:53:06 GMT -5
There is a huge difference between how different phono preamps sound - which is sort of odd since what they're supposed to do and sound like is pretty well defined. There are several reasons for this. First, it is somewhat tricky to design circuitry that can deal with the low signal levels put out by a phono cartridge without adding a lot of noise; and they then have to apply a lot of gain to that low level signal without adding much distortion, which also requires careful design. Also, some cartridges are quite fussy about the input load provided by the phono preamp - so they sound different with different preamps that offer slightly different input loads. However, as far as I can tell, the main reason is simply that, since cartridges vary widely in their frequency response, and vinyl lovers tend to themselves have different sonic preferences, many makers of phono preamps deliberately prefer to offer a "distinctive sound" in the hopes that it will complement the particular quirks of some cartridges... or because they're hoping to appeal to the expectations of a certain market. (For example, boosting the upper midrange will make a cartridge sound "more detailed", and boosting the bass may make it seem as if the cartridge has better low bass response - either of which may make a particular cartridge deficient in that area sound better.) After all, if all phono preamps actually followed the standard, then they would all sound pretty much the same, and there would be little excuse to buy this or that premium model. Where I'm getting at with this rant is that the phono section in our XSP-1 preamp (and our little XPS-1, which is basically the same circuitry) really do offer performance comparable with many other phono preamps out there costing much more - including some whose price tag is just plain ridiculous. So, while it's not at all unlikely that a $5,000 phono preamp will sound different, don't assume that it will actually be better. The XSP-1 is also very accurate, which means that it will let you hear what your cartridge sounds like, without editorializing of otherwise messing around with the sound. So, if you're looking for a new phono preamp, in the hopes of improving the performance of your system, don't not consider the XPS-1 as an option just because it's a lot cheaper than the one you have now.... with phono preamps, the performance doesn't necessarily have much to do with the price tag, so the XPS-1 just might perform significantly better than the $500 or $1000 model you've been considering, or the expensive phono preamp you already have (the XPS-1 is really that good). Also, since most reviews are based on "flavor preference" rather than performance, don't assume that a particular expensive model that some reviewer considers to work well with his favorite boutique cartridge will deliver excellent performance with your cartridge - unless you use the same brand and model. (Note that the XPS-1 is basically the same as the phono preamp in our XSP-1. Therefore, the only reason someone with an XSP-1 would also buy an XPS-1 phono preamp would be to add a second phono input to the XSP-1.) I am looking for a Phono Pre upgrade. Pre $800 range I don't want to mess with tubes candidates? |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 6, 2015 12:24:37 GMT -5
I think you really need to define what you mean by "better" here. I'm pretty sure you would indeed hear a difference with any of the choices I saw listed. However, I'm not sure that any of them are significantly quieter, lower in distortion, or more accurate to the RIAA curve than our little XPS-1. (Those are the things a phono preamp is supposed to do.) There are many phono preamps available, some for a lot of money, that may suit the preferences of a certain reviewer, or may happen to have coloration that complements the coloration of some particular cartridge, but don't do the job they're intended to do any better than the XPS-1. Phono preamps are really one of those types of product where you need to be very careful to distinguish between "different", "better", and "correct". The XPS-1 was designed to apply the correct RIAA frequency response curve; it will not make your records warmer, or cooler, or more detailed... because all of those are colorations. Phono preamps are one of those things where there actually is an objective "correct". Once you abandon that goal for "simply picking one you think sounds nicer", the whole game changes; if the $500 one and the $5000 one are equally inaccurate then, by all means, pick the one you like; just don't assume that the $5000 one is technically better than the $500 one, or that the $4500 is necessarily buying you anything other than that particular designer's favorite colorations; because, at that point, you're really just picking one "designer flavor" over another. (Personally, I'm an objectivist... so, if there is an obvious "right", then that's what I want.) The objective reality is that you can design a phono preamp for under $200 that is pretty close to being "objectively perfect" - which is what we did (it follows the RIAA curve very closely, and fails to introduce audible noise, distortion, or coloration). If we were to decide to design a $5000 phono preamp, it would have lots of cool features and useful bells and whistles, but I wouldn't expect it to sound much different than the XPS-1. And, if you compare any number of "audibly accurate" phono preamps, you shouldn't expect to hear much difference either. (I'm not saying that ALL sub-$200 are great, or even good; I can only speak for ours :  . Please note that I'm NOT trying to discourage anyone from spending as much as they like, and getting something they really love, regardless of whether it's accurate, or complements their cartridge, or just plain sounds nice to them. What I am doing is trying to impress on you that $200 is plenty of budget to design a really excellent quality phono preamp - and there is no reason to assume that one that costs more can or will be better in any meaningful way. There are some very expensive phono preamps that are very good, and some that are not. (And, even if I had $1 million in the bank, I wouldn't buy a more expensive phono preamp unless it actually DID something better than the $200 one.  ) When you're comparing phono preamps, you really need to FORGET ABOUT THE PRICE (unless it rules out certain ones that you just plain can't afford). I'll be honest, I did not find the XSP-1's phono stage any better then other 100-200 dollar stages I've used. I do think you will notice an improvement with any of your choices. My system is very solid state and cold at times, so I'm debating adding some warmth to my records, which is why I'm considering the Budgie. Isn't the XSP-1's phono stage, effectively a 100-200 phono stage? They pulled it out into a separate box and it's selling for $150. |
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Post by stads77 on Mar 6, 2015 12:43:45 GMT -5
So maybe the question is, how/why is the Xps-1 any better then other phono stages that cost similar? Why is it "better" then other inexpensive phono stages. It seems like the argument could be flipped around to show that the phono stage in the Xsp-1 is not only as good as others costing more, but not really any better then others costing the same or even less. When it comes to vinyl playback, lets be honest most of us are looking for that "sweet" and "musical" sound that makes us really enjoy listening to our collection, and as silent a background as possible as vinyl records tend towards more noise. So you are probably right Keith, it is at times about the coloration of the phono stage that makes some phono stages set apart as "better" sounding then one such as the XPS-1. That is one big reason I enjoy listening to vinyl, it can grab ahold of my bones in a way that seems unique to digital recordings. Probably because it is less "perfect" then its digital brother from point A to B (B being my ears). I'm probably crazy too though  |
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insightfulman
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Have you seen the 6 fingered man?
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Post by insightfulman on Mar 6, 2015 12:46:51 GMT -5
As always thanks Keith for your insight and as usually the case I totally agree with you. I have the XSP-1 gen 2 and I liked its built in phono stage better than the Bellari (tubed) which is why I didn't like the JD9 as much as I felt the tube sound added just too much colorations at cost of accuracy.
There are many reasons I went with the Nova II. Overall it was the best fit in terms of loading flexibility and overall sound - not to mention cost: I was trying to keep it in the $1000-$2000 range.
I did like the sound of JC3 but without loading options I would need to step up to the JC3+ and even in the used market they are going for $2000+. I also talked to the folks over at Musical Surroundings and they were super nice and that really helped as well.
I did hear enough diligence between the built in XSP-1 phono stage and the Nova II (I took my own mobility fidelity vinyls) to justify the purchase. Granted it wasn't a DBX listening session and it could totally be my own expectation bias, regardless, I will give it a shot for 60 days (return policy) in my own setting and see if it justifies the cost over the XSP-1 built in phono stage.
For the price I also liked the SimaAudio Moon 110LP at $649.
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Post by vneal on Mar 7, 2015 16:56:32 GMT -5
No offense to Emotiva but I want a phono- pre with a face plate and would prefer a thin but standard width one. Looks mater so make the phono pre look good also. Preferably one with a removable cord. I think the pedestrian wall-adapter power supply—are generally under powered and noisy little varmints- you can add a green light and charge $299 for it. I will buy one tommorrow
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 1:56:41 GMT -5
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.
) When you're comparing phono preamps, you really need to FORGET ABOUT THE PRICE (unless it rules out certain ones that you just plain can't afford). 
