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Post by pop on Apr 9, 2015 23:21:58 GMT -5
lets say they are in the same enclosure and cost the same price. What would set Mcintosh apart from Emotiva?
Recently I have started selling audio/video and I am having two very hard hurdles. First one is the ungodly expensive cables. This I understand though and accept it for what it is.
I need to set my mind at ease. I am jaw dropped by Mcintosh prices when I know the performance from Emotiva (I know, old news, but let's discuss) I recommend Rotel, as the price is live able, but their is a shortage of high power amplifiers in their lineup.
So what is it? Is it the internals in Mcintosh? Design? Like I stated, same enclosure, same price. What's the main differences?
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Post by teaman on Apr 9, 2015 23:31:25 GMT -5
lets say they are in the same enclosure and cost the same price. What would set Mcintosh apart from Emotiva? Recently I have started selling audio/video and I am having two very hard hurdles. First one is the ungodly expensive cables. This I understand though and accept it for what it is. I need to set my mind at ease. I am jaw dropped by Mcintosh prices when I know the performance from Emotiva (I know, old news, but let's discuss) I recommend Rotel, as the price is live able, but their is a shortage of high power amplifiers in their lineup. So what is it? Is it the internals in Mcintosh? Design? Like I stated, same enclosure, same price. What's the main differences? I think reputation has a lot to do with it. In my thirty years of audio interest I have never seen any negative feedback or heard any horror stories about Mcintosh equipment. I admire that Emotiva has had very few hiccups along the way, but they are still a really new company. I owned Technics components for thirty years and had very little to complain about. That reputation for quality turned me on to Panasonic as a whole after the Technics brand was abolished. Panasonic too has served me well. With time I think Emotiva will gain more and more momentum in the A/V world. I am seeing frequent reviews now, whereas only a few years ago they seemed like an unknown commodity. As with Mcintosh equipment, the Emotiva stuff is built like tanks and from 99% of the feedback here in the forum over the last few years customers are happy. Mcintosh has definitely carved out a niche with the front meters and such and much to it's credit so has Emotiva with it's blue lights. I hope Emotiva does not move away from this for the few that find the lights annoying, I think it sets them apart.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Apr 9, 2015 23:51:38 GMT -5
lets say they are in the same enclosure and cost the same price. What would set Mcintosh apart from Emotiva? Recently I have started selling audio/video and I am having two very hard hurdles. First one is the ungodly expensive cables. This I understand though and accept it for what it is. I need to set my mind at ease. I am jaw dropped by Mcintosh prices when I know the performance from Emotiva (I know, old news, but let's discuss) I recommend Rotel, as the price is live able, but their is a shortage of high power amplifiers in their lineup. So what is it? Is it the internals in Mcintosh? Design? Like I stated, same enclosure, same price. What's the main differences? I think your parameters are too extreme (or absurd?). Same price ... Is the Mac as cheap as an Emo or an Emo as expensive as a Mac? Same enclosure ... Emotiva looks good, but a backlit Mac panel is a thing of beauty (which is of course subjective), and their meters are very accurate. I agree with teaman on long standing reputation, it's also built very well and it sounds excellent - when coupled with the right speakers. If you're going to sell a product like McIntosh you have to see it from your customers perspective and not necessarily your own. I sold Mac in the 70's, at the time I really liked SAE, but it attracted a different type of customer. I had a friend with a Tri-amped Mac / JBL system, it looked and sounded awesome. I never doubted that his system wasn't worth every penny he paid for it. If we all just needed to get to work why do we need so many different cars, you know, cause the world would be a pretty boring place if everyone drove a black Ford.
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Post by garbulky on Apr 10, 2015 0:59:36 GMT -5
As has been mentioned it's not the same enclosure. Those meters are expensive. The tubes are more expensive. I believe the transformers are wound on Mcintosh's own machines. I've heard reports that Mcintosh has service stations that can bring most of their units regardless of their age - and some are very old - back to working original condition. That kind of service standard and longevity speaks volumes for a certain kind of customer that cares more about stuff getting done than anythng. For instance, that customer doesn't want to deal with boxing stuff up and postage lines etc. He wants to go to a dealer etc. All those cost money. And even though they obviously make a good amount of profit, it's also marketted towards a different segment. This is not knocking Emotiva, just saying they are different
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Post by 1960broookwood on Apr 10, 2015 3:09:30 GMT -5
As has been mentioned it's not the same enclosure. Those meters are expensive. The tubes are more expensive. I believe the transformers are wound on Mcintosh's own machines. I've heard reports that Mcintosh has service stations that can bring most of their units regardless of their age - and some are very old - back to working original condition. That kind of service standard and longevity speaks volumes for a certain kind of customer that cares more about stuff getting done than anythng. For instance, that customer doesn't want to deal with boxing stuff up and postage lines etc. He wants to go to a dealer etc. All those cost money. And even though they obviously make a good amount of profit, it's also marketted towards a different segment. This is not knocking Emotiva, just saying they are different QFT My brother in law sold Mac as a part time job in high school and still uses the gear he bought in 1973. There are 5 factory authorized service centers within a short drive from my home in the Midwest.
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Post by linvincible on Apr 10, 2015 3:24:53 GMT -5
Mac monoblocks don't tick...
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Post by vneal on Apr 10, 2015 6:51:03 GMT -5
I have a 15 year old hand made McIntosh amp that sounds great. Fit of finish is eye candy. I used to have all Mac gear. Preamp , tuner, CD. Their processors are so damn overpriced that I bought the little UMC200 that did more than my outdated McIntoch MX119. So I sold it. The Oppo sounded better than the Mc CD player, so I sold it. I still like their amps though, and I still like their tuners but who uses a tuner? At least in my area nothing is worth listening to other than talk radio or sports radio.
I bought all Mac gear used so I let someone else take the 30% hit. When I sold the gear I basically broke even.
The McIntosh appeal is part looks part snob appeal. Their products are good but not SOTA. It is similar to buying a Rolex watch. I have the money to buy the McIntosh----it is just that Emotiva is a huge bargain and you cut out the middle man.Emotiva seems to be a no nonsense company. I think Oppo is too. As time passes I will probably purchase more gear from both companies
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Apr 10, 2015 7:47:22 GMT -5
I bought all Mac gear used so I let someone else take the 30% hit. When I sold the gear I basically broke even. Yup, 30-40% off the top is usual dealer markup.
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Post by pop on Apr 10, 2015 8:11:44 GMT -5
lets say they are in the same enclosure and cost the same price. What would set Mcintosh apart from Emotiva? Recently I have started selling audio/video and I am having two very hard hurdles. First one is the ungodly expensive cables. This I understand though and accept it for what it is. I need to set my mind at ease. I am jaw dropped by Mcintosh prices when I know the performance from Emotiva (I know, old news, but let's discuss) I recommend Rotel, as the price is live able, but their is a shortage of high power amplifiers in their lineup. So what is it? Is it the internals in Mcintosh? Design? Like I stated, same enclosure, same price. What's the main differences? I think your parameters are too extreme (or absurd?). Same price ... Is the Mac as cheap as an Emo or an Emo as expensive as a Mac? Same enclosure ... Emotiva looks good, but a backlit Mac panel is a thing of beauty (which is of course subjective), and their meters are very accurate. I agree with teaman on long standing reputation, it's also built very well and it sounds excellent - when coupled with the right speakers. If you're going to sell a product like McIntosh you have to see it from your customers perspective and not necessarily your own. I sold Mac in the 70's, at the time I really liked SAE, but it attracted a different type of customer. I had a friend with a Tri-amped Mac / JBL system, it looked and sounded awesome. I never doubted that his system wasn't worth every penny he paid for it. If we all just needed to get to work why do we need so many different cars, you know, cause the world would be a pretty boring place if everyone drove a black Ford. What I am getting at is simple. By defining same price same enclosure we are now talking about the inner workings of the amplifiers themselves. Mcintosh isn't something you try to sell. You have a small window of opportunity if they don't know Mcintosh already. Someone jumping into a 2 channel rig for the first time is highly likely to purchase Rotel vs. Mcintosh. Under the hood. Where is the difference? Does Mcintosh use better quality components? I'm not picking at Mcintosh or Emotiva, just trying to get a bit better of an understanding. I am obviously not trying to stop anyone from purchasing Mcintosh, and I wish I could tell them to buy Emotiva. Unfortunately I can't. Even with my work discount Emotiva is still to me a no brAiner over Mcintosh. In fact I am tucking away money for 2 Xpa1 for my soon to have 802d.
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Post by jmasterj on Apr 10, 2015 8:35:27 GMT -5
I believe that a line taken from the emotiva "About Us" statement best describes the difference between the two companies. "Emotiva is a new company with a new business model for a new century". They have a proven product at a reasonable price, a solid customer base, and a reputation for excellent customer service. I believe if Emotiva continues on it's current course it's reputation in the industry will continue to grow and the company will continue to prosper.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Apr 10, 2015 9:20:28 GMT -5
In my experience the thing that distinguished McIntosh from most mainstream amps (besides their physical design) was extremely low noise floor (like -122db in the best case I can recall measuring) and low THD on the order of .001% within its power band. They also tended to overbuild their power supplies giving very high impulse power capability which means they can handle dynamic peaks with less distortion than most. But I haven't been inside an audio test lab since 1992 so this is only their older stuff (before they sold out to Denon.)
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 10, 2015 9:39:39 GMT -5
I'm been around the audio industry for, well, more years than I care to admit - and I seem to have a different take on McIntosh than a lot of people. Also, from what I've seen through the years, the relationship between McIntosh and other products has changed between "back then" and now. Please note that Emotiva doesn't have "official opinions" about our competitors - and this is MY PERSONAL TAKE ON THE SITUATION. Back in the days when tube equipment dominated, McIntosh was considered to be a premium brand for several reasons. First, their amplifiers had truly awesome build quality, and they offered a warranty to match. Back then, literally, if you found a McIntosh amp laying in the middle of the freeway, complete with tread marks and bullet holes, they would fix it or give you a new one - for free - period. Lifetime warranty to anyone who walked in with one - original owner or not. The amp itself weighed three times as much as the competitors product, was built like a tank, and looked really nice as well. Second, their equipment worked really well. Their fancy "unity coupled" transformer wasn't just hype; old McIntosh tube amps had lower distortion and actually sounded cleaner than most of the competition. At that point, I would have been quite comfortable as describing the situation as "McIntosh equipment costs an awful lot more than anybody else but, if you can afford it, it sounds really good, is built really well, has the best warranty, and looks pretty good. (Remember that McIntosh tube amps looked modern compared to what else was out there.) However, at least with the people I hung around with, a lot of that changed when solid state replaced tubes. At that point, McIntosh TUNERS, like the MR77 and MR78 were considered to be really exceptional performers. However, most people I knew didn't consider their solid state amps to be exceptional in terms of actual audio performance. Their reliability was still very good, but they didn't measure - or sound - better than other units out there that were a lot cheaper. The autotransformers that McIntosh still used in their amps added a lot of weight and cost, and actually prevented them from matching the better distortion performance of direct-coupled solid state designs. They also limit the damping factor significantly. (The transformers did offer absolute protection from having your speakers burned out by a shorted output transistor, which was more common back then, and allowed the amp to deliver its rated power equally into speakers of various impedances, but it was questionable whether either of those factors justified the cost, weight, and performance hit - and that became more true as the technology progressed.) At that point the aesthetics of McIntosh equipment became what I would call "high quality retro" - I personally like big blue meters, but the paint-on-glass face plates made a lot of their equipment look dated (like a vintage car with big fins - you either like the look or don't). For better or worse, it looked like "your dad's fancy stereo" and "a new Mac looked a lot like an old Mac". (Back then, the "modern look" was silver face plates, knurled knobs, and white meters - remember those? Macs had glass front panels with painted writing and chrome knobs.) If you had asked me about McIntosh solid state equipment about twenty five years ago, I would have said something like: Their higher end tuners, like the MR77 and MR78, are really good; their solid state power amps are built like tanks, and they'll probably run forever, but you can certainly find other brands that sell for 1/3 the price that measure better... and those others might quite possibly sound a little better as well. (You may or may not hear the difference, but I wouldn't bet on the McIntosh one sounding noticeably better. You're paying for build quality and reliability - not specifically sound quality.) Some of their lower solid state tuner models, and their receivers, were not well received at all. I'll admit that I haven't "followed" their products much since then, but my impression is that their current products combine "competent performance", good looks (I happen to like the way they look now a lot), and still very good build quality. Please don't take exception to my use of terms like "competent performance". I'm personally convinced that a $1200 Oppo 105 is probably THE best performing Blu-Ray player you can buy AT ANY PRICE. That means that, if McIntosh or anyone else sells one for more, what you're paying for is better build quality and good looks. Likewise, while I'm willing to believe that a McIntosh amp is built really well, and may last 100 years longer than one made by someone else, I'm not convinced that it will sound better than someone else's (and I'm also not convinced that a Rolls Royce Silver Shadow would get me the three miles to work any better than my Nissan Versa.) It's also interesting to note that McIntosh has changed hands a few times in recent years... and their service is rumored to have gotten downright spotty. On the upside, a lot of people still like McIntosh equipment a lot, and it generally maintains very good resale value. And, of course, it looks very nice, is very well made, usually has a very nice "feel" to it, and I'm pretty sure it all sounds just fine.
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Post by pop on Apr 10, 2015 10:04:43 GMT -5
Excellent insight Keith! Very well explained and understandable.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Apr 10, 2015 10:20:49 GMT -5
I think your parameters are too extreme (or absurd?). Same price ... Is the Mac as cheap as an Emo or an Emo as expensive as a Mac? Same enclosure ... Emotiva looks good, but a backlit Mac panel is a thing of beauty (which is of course subjective), and their meters are very accurate. I agree with teaman on long standing reputation, it's also built very well and it sounds excellent - when coupled with the right speakers. If you're going to sell a product like McIntosh you have to see it from your customers perspective and not necessarily your own. I sold Mac in the 70's, at the time I really liked SAE, but it attracted a different type of customer. I had a friend with a Tri-amped Mac / JBL system, it looked and sounded awesome. I never doubted that his system wasn't worth every penny he paid for it. If we all just needed to get to work why do we need so many different cars, you know, cause the world would be a pretty boring place if everyone drove a black Ford. What I am getting at is simple. By defining same price same enclosure we are now talking about the inner workings of the amplifiers themselves. Mcintosh isn't something you try to sell. You have a small window of opportunity if they don't know Mcintosh already. Someone jumping into a 2 channel rig for the first time is highly likely to purchase Rotel vs. Mcintosh. Under the hood. Where is the difference? Does Mcintosh use better quality components? I'm not picking at Mcintosh or Emotiva, just trying to get a bit better of an understanding. I am obviously not trying to stop anyone from purchasing Mcintosh, and I wish I could tell them to buy Emotiva. Unfortunately I can't. Even with my work discount Emotiva is still to me a no brAiner over Mcintosh. In fact I am tucking away money for 2 Xpa1 for my soon to have 802d. I wish I could answer your question about parts and build, I no longer study how their gear is made. I think the video Chuck posted gives you some idea, I know their parts are very high quality. When I sold Mac I was lucky enough to work for one of the largest Mac dealers in LA, they flew the owner and all the salespeople to Binghamton, NY for a factory tour. I can tell you it was the most first class business experience I've ever had. After a comfortable flight we were treated to a fabulous meal, with more great food, wine, and drink than anyone could imagine. The next day we toured all parts of the factory watching every part of the manufacturing, testing, and shipping process. We also auditioned equipment in the listening / demo room, and saw their R&D facilities - Mac was very forward in their test and measurement process. These were the years Gordon Gow was president and my word what an amazing personality he was. A very engaging man who not only knew the business, but also an engineer who designed many of their first products; he would quickly dissect any pseudo technology with sound science, engineering, and measurements. Mr. Gow also lead a business / sales meeting and discussed many of the features and selling points of the product (we even met Frank McIntosh who joined us). All in all a fabulous and informative trip that I'll never forget. These were also the days of the 'Mac Clinics', where technicians (dressed in white lab coats) would setup a test bench in the store. Customers could bring any manufactures amplifier in to be tested, they would give you a printout of the power and distortion for your amp. If you brought in a McIntosh amp they would not only test it, but fix it on the spot (regardless of warranty status). This even included giving you free tubes if that's what it took to bring your gear into spec. At the time we could use this as part of our sales pitch, along the lines of 'lifetime warranty'. Bang & Olufsen briefly tried to emulate this with in store turntable clinics. I've also owned several Mac pieces over the years and they performed (and looked) wonderfully. All this has surely biased me in favor of Mac, and I am also one who appreciates their classic design aesthetic. So while I probably haven't answered your question, maybe I've given some background on some of the reasons they became such a great company. Are you in a Magnolia store? I can imagine that making the sale a bit harder as you have so much walk through traffic it must be hard to qualify the potential Mac customer (but I do miss the days of salesman discounts and am envious of your pending 802 purchase). - Bruce There are many videos online, here's one of Gordon Gow discussing the Unity Transformer (which I assume became their fabled Autoformer).
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Post by pedrocols on Apr 10, 2015 11:08:08 GMT -5
lets say they are in the same enclosure and cost the same price. What would set Mcintosh apart from Emotiva? Recently I have started selling audio/video and I am having two very hard hurdles. First one is the ungodly expensive cables. This I understand though and accept it for what it is. I need to set my mind at ease. I am jaw dropped by Mcintosh prices when I know the performance from Emotiva (I know, old news, but let's discuss) I recommend Rotel, as the price is live able, but their is a shortage of high power amplifiers in their lineup. So what is it? Is it the internals in Mcintosh? Design? Like I stated, same enclosure, same price. What's the main differences? Mcintosh has been around since way before you were even born and still a successful company today...That should tell you something...Even way before I was born and I am 44..
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 10, 2015 11:30:22 GMT -5
You need to be very careful when you use terms like "better components".... Components can be rated by a whole series of different parameters - for example a "simple capacitor" can be rated on: How accurate it's value is (how close the value is to what the label says) How much that value drifts over the life of the part How much that value changes when the temperature changes (like when the equipment warms up) ESL - an electrical characteristic called Equivalent Series Inductance ESR - an electrical characteristic called Equivalent Series Resistance Life/temperature - capacitors are typically rated to have an average life expectancy of xx hours at yy degrees centigrade (life gets shorter as the temperature goes up). A "cheap" 10 uF capacitor is the size of a pea and costs a dime; a "fancy" one is guaranteed to last 100 years, whether it's sitting in boiling water or buried in arctic ice, is the size of a computer hard drive, weighs a pound, and costs $50. And, after all that, whether they'll sound any different will depend on the circuit you're using them in. There is a lot of "audiophile folklore" about certain super-expensive types of capacitors magically sounding better. The reality is that, yes, in some circuits, some capacitors do create distortion that makes them sound pretty bad, but most of them sound the same. And a good designer knows which circuit is which, uses the "good" cap where it counts, and doesn't waste money using a fancy part where it doesn't matter. (Again, this will depend on the circuit; you wouldn't want to use electrolytic caps in certain applications in the signal path, but they work just fine in other places, and they work great in most power supply applications; and using the expensive part where it doesn't matter isn't going to do anything but raise the price. And, in some circuits, a part really needs to be within a fraction of a percent of its rated value to work right; in others, as long as it's within 50%, it won't make any difference at all.) Here at Emotiva, we use "good quality commercial parts"; which is a nice way of saying that we use parts that perform well enough to make our equipment sound really good, and that will make your Emo equipment work for a long time under normal conditions. For example, if we were to replace every part in our XPA-1 with "the best parts available", it would be the size of a refrigerator, it would weigh four or five hundred pounds, and we'd have to sell it for $200k .... but it probably wouldn't sound much different - if at all (but, if you buried it in your air-raid shelter, it would probably still work when someone dug it up in 500 years). Incidentally, while the length of a company's warranty doesn't always correlate directly to the quality of the parts they use, they may sometimes be related. In the very early days McIntosh offered an unlimited lifetime warranty. The current McIntosh warranty on "Home Audio Equipment" is Three Years (except 90 days on tubes). Here at Emotiva we give you a Five Year warranty. Hmmmmm..... I think your parameters are too extreme (or absurd?). Same price ... Is the Mac as cheap as an Emo or an Emo as expensive as a Mac? Same enclosure ... Emotiva looks good, but a backlit Mac panel is a thing of beauty (which is of course subjective), and their meters are very accurate. I agree with teaman on long standing reputation, it's also built very well and it sounds excellent - when coupled with the right speakers. If you're going to sell a product like McIntosh you have to see it from your customers perspective and not necessarily your own. I sold Mac in the 70's, at the time I really liked SAE, but it attracted a different type of customer. I had a friend with a Tri-amped Mac / JBL system, it looked and sounded awesome. I never doubted that his system wasn't worth every penny he paid for it. If we all just needed to get to work why do we need so many different cars, you know, cause the world would be a pretty boring place if everyone drove a black Ford. What I am getting at is simple. By defining same price same enclosure we are now talking about the inner workings of the amplifiers themselves. Mcintosh isn't something you try to sell. You have a small window of opportunity if they don't know Mcintosh already. Someone jumping into a 2 channel rig for the first time is highly likely to purchase Rotel vs. Mcintosh. Under the hood. Where is the difference? Does Mcintosh use better quality components? I'm not picking at Mcintosh or Emotiva, just trying to get a bit better of an understanding. I am obviously not trying to stop anyone from purchasing Mcintosh, and I wish I could tell them to buy Emotiva. Unfortunately I can't. Even with my work discount Emotiva is still to me a no brAiner over Mcintosh. In fact I am tucking away money for 2 Xpa1 for my soon to have 802d.
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Post by vneal on Apr 10, 2015 11:45:44 GMT -5
I'm been around the audio industry for, well, more years than I care to admit - and I seem to have a different take on McIntosh than a lot of people. Also, from what I've seen through the years, the relationship between McIntosh and other products has changed between "back then" and now. Please note that Emotiva doesn't have "official opinions" about our competitors - and this is MY PERSONAL TAKE ON THE SITUATION. Back in the days when tube equipment dominated, McIntosh was considered to be a premium brand for several reasons. First, their amplifiers had truly awesome build quality, and they offered a warranty to match. Back then, literally, if you found a McIntosh amp laying in the middle of the freeway, complete with tread marks and bullet holes, they would fix it or give you a new one - for free - period. Lifetime warranty to anyone who walked in with one - original owner or not. The amp itself weighed three times as much as the competitors product, was built like a tank, and looked really nice as well. Second, their equipment worked really well. Their fancy "unity coupled" transformer wasn't just hype; old McIntosh tube amps had lower distortion and actually sounded cleaner than most of the competition. At that point, I would have been quite comfortable as describing the situation as "McIntosh equipment costs an awful lot more than anybody else but, if you can afford it, it sounds really good, is built really well, has the best warranty, and looks pretty good. (Remember that McIntosh tube amps looked modern compared to what else was out there.) However, at least with the people I hung around with, a lot of that changed when solid state replaced tubes. At that point, McIntosh TUNERS, like the MR77 and MR78 were considered to be really exceptional performers. However, most people I knew didn't consider their solid state amps to be exceptional in terms of actual audio performance. Their reliability was still very good, but they didn't measure - or sound - better than other units out there that were a lot cheaper. The autotransformers that McIntosh still used in their amps added a lot of weight and cost, and actually prevented them from matching the better distortion performance of direct-coupled solid state designs. They also limit the damping factor significantly. (The transformers did offer absolute protection from having your speakers burned out by a shorted output transistor, which was more common back then, and allowed the amp to deliver its rated power equally into speakers of various impedances, but it was questionable whether either of those factors justified the cost, weight, and performance hit - and that became more true as the technology progressed.) At that point the aesthetics of McIntosh equipment became what I would call "high quality retro" - I personally like big blue meters, but the paint-on-glass face plates made a lot of their equipment look dated (like a vintage car with big fins - you either like the look or don't). For better or worse, it looked like "your dad's fancy stereo" and "a new Mac looked a lot like an old Mac". (Back then, the "modern look" was silver face plates, knurled knobs, and white meters - remember those? Macs had glass front panels with painted writing and chrome knobs.) If you had asked me about McIntosh solid state equipment about twenty five years ago, I would have said something like: Their higher end tuners, like the MR77 and MR78, are really good; their solid state power amps are built like tanks, and they'll probably run forever, but you can certainly find other brands that sell for 1/3 the price that measure better... and those others might quite possibly sound a little better as well. (You may or may not hear the difference, but I wouldn't bet on the McIntosh one sounding noticeably better. You're paying for build quality and reliability - not specifically sound quality.) Some of their lower solid state tuner models, and their receivers, were not well received at all. I'll admit that I haven't "followed" their products much since then, but my impression is that their current products combine "competent performance", good looks (I happen to like the way they look now a lot), and still very good build quality. Please don't take exception to my use of terms like "competent performance". I'm personally convinced that a $1200 Oppo 105 is probably THE best performing Blu-Ray player you can buy AT ANY PRICE. That means that, if McIntosh or anyone else sells one for more, what you're paying for is better build quality and good looks. Likewise, while I'm willing to believe that a McIntosh amp is built really well, and may last 100 years longer than one made by someone else, I'm not convinced that it will sound better than someone else's (and I'm also not convinced that a Rolls Royce Silver Shadow would get me the three miles to work any better than my Nissan Versa.) It's also interesting to note that McIntosh has changed hands a few times in recent years... and their service is rumored to have gotten downright spotty. On the upside, a lot of people still like McIntosh equipment a lot, and it generally maintains very good resale value. And, of course, it looks very nice, is very well made, usually has a very nice "feel" to it, and I'm pretty sure it all sounds just fine. Having owned everything mentioned above I can say this is an honest assessment of McIntosh. I do like the look as I like the look of Emotiva. And actually the two look good together. I just sold an old modified MR 78 Mac tuner and I can assure you in blood it sounds better than any Emotiva tuner. I stated above FM sucks so FM is pretty much dead I think for home or high fidelity use. I have compared my power amp to Emotiva and I can hear no difference. Being that said I can easily sell it and buy the top of the line Emotiva preamp and 7 channel poweramp with the funds and have $$$ left over for several good bottles of wine.---- and have thought about it. The used market for amps especially is very high. Answering their service issue. I have never had any service done outside of a tuner alighnment. I live in Houston the 4th largest USA city who has several dealers and none actually are a AUTHORIZED REPAIR CENTER. It goes to Birmingham NY or semi locally Beaumont TX. I lived in Dallas FTWoth in the 70s-80s and delt with a really good McIntosh audio store in FtWorth called Marvins Electronics(McIntosh, Klipsch, Yamaha, Nacamichi, Denon, NAD, Oracle, WTT, Dalquest,) were their brands. Like many they are no longer in business. In most high end audio circles McIntosh is looked down upon but so is Emotiva. Brands in high regard are Wilson, ARC, Bryston on and on
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Post by deltadube on Apr 10, 2015 13:35:48 GMT -5
lets say they are in the same enclosure and cost the same price. What would set Mcintosh apart from Emotiva? Recently I have started selling audio/video and I am having two very hard hurdles. First one is the ungodly expensive cables. This I understand though and accept it for what it is. I need to set my mind at ease. I am jaw dropped by Mcintosh prices when I know the performance from Emotiva (I know, old news, but let's discuss) I recommend Rotel, as the price is live able, but their is a shortage of high power amplifiers in their lineup. So what is it? Is it the internals in Mcintosh? Design? Like I stated, same enclosure, same price. What's the main differences? can you explain how you understand the ungodly expensive cables.. this is the most marked up item on the planet ... cheers
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Post by Poodleluvr on Apr 10, 2015 14:02:51 GMT -5
You need to be very careful when you use terms like "better components".... Components can be rated by a whole series of different parameters - for example a "simple capacitor" can be rated on: How accurate it's value is (how close the value is to what the label says) How much that value drifts over the life of the part How much that value changes when the temperature changes (like when the equipment warms up) ESL - an electrical characteristic called Equivalent Series Inductance ESR - an electrical characteristic called Equivalent Series Resistance Life/temperature - capacitors are typically rated to have an average life expectancy of xx hours at yy degrees centigrade (life gets shorter as the temperature goes up). [/quote] Mr. Keith: When Emotiva designed the XPA-1 Gen2 and the XPA-1L, was any special consideration given towards MTBF calculations (mean time between failure)for electronic components selected due to the extra heat attributed from Class A operation? Thanks!, Poodleluvr
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Post by The History Kid on Apr 10, 2015 14:15:53 GMT -5
I think reputation has a lot to do with it. In my thirty years of audio interest I have never seen any negative feedback or heard any horror stories about Mcintosh equipment. I admire that Emotiva has had very few hiccups along the way, but they are still a really new company. I owned Technics components for thirty years and had very little to complain about. That reputation for quality turned me on to Panasonic as a whole after the Technics brand was abolished. Panasonic too has served me well. With time I think Emotiva will gain more and more momentum in the A/V world. I am seeing frequent reviews now, whereas only a few years ago they seemed like an unknown commodity. As with Mcintosh equipment, the Emotiva stuff is built like tanks and from 99% of the feedback here in the forum over the last few years customers are happy. Mcintosh has definitely carved out a niche with the front meters and such and much to it's credit so has Emotiva with it's blue lights. I hope Emotiva does not move away from this for the few that find the lights annoying, I think it sets them apart. I like this idea mainly because I'm probably a classic readout of the customer you're referring to. From the time that I started playing with audio, I was always taught that you would always do right by buying Yamaha. They had reputation, and finding a way to service them was fairly easy. I had never heard of Emotiva except maybe a few times thrown around on audiophile websites. Of course, those kinds of names I figured, no way in hell I could afford or land anytime soon. So when it was finally time to move away from Yamaha (because I was so frustrated with not liking what I heard in their new offerings), it was a welcome surprise to see the prices on Emo gear be what they are. But again, I had never heard of them, and was still nervous all the way until I fired the Fusion and XDA up together for the first time. Only took a few hours listening to change my mind and make me an Emo-fanboy. But I think the regular Joe has the same kind of mindset. Regardless if it's a respected brand that has some fire behind it like McIntosh, or something a lot less grisly (unless you count the M series) like Yamaha. Shoot, I still have a neighbor that insists that Marantz receivers are ever the only option - I think most of us know that's not 100% true, but he speaks off of the fact the brand's been around and kicking butt for over half of his lifetime.
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