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Post by fbczar on Apr 22, 2015 22:29:56 GMT -5
I am trying to play a DSD64 download. I use Audirvana 2.0 on my IMac. The IMac is connected to the XMC-1 via a mini display port to HDMI adapter and HDMI cable. HDMI is selected on both the iMac and the XMC-1. Audirvana is setup to play native DSD,but no sound. USB works fine. DSD converted to PCM by Audirvana works fine. I would appreciate any advice on how to set things up to play DSD.
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Post by markc on Apr 23, 2015 0:34:05 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that this isn't meant to work on the XMC-1 as DOP (a novel protocol for DSD sent over HDMI as a specially encoded PCM signal) is not supported on the XMC-1.
Keith L specifically mentioned in a previous post that there were no firm plans to implement this, which is a shame.
There is NO other way to get multichannel DSD out of a computer (PC or Mac) (I believe stereo DSD can be sent over USB as the USB DACS will accept it) - it has to be transcoded to PCM and 176.4kHz 24 bit is the best format to choose IF your graphics solution has this as a frequency option for it's HDMI output.
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Post by JNieves on Apr 23, 2015 0:46:13 GMT -5
I am trying to play a DSD64 download. I use Audirvana 2.0 on my IMac. The IMac is connected to the XMC-1 via a mini display port to HDMI adapter and HDMI cable. HDMI is selected on both the iMac and the XMC-1. Audirvana is setup to play native DSD,but no sound. USB works fine. DSD converted to PCM by Audirvana works fine. I would appreciate any advice on how to set things up to play DSD. Should be in the options. This is from the user manual (page 28, here's a link): DSD'playback' These options (just under the list of available sample rates) enable to select the way DSD audio is sent to the DAC, and the (if needed) DSD to PCM conversion algorithm: - Native DSD Capability: Automatic Detection should work for nearly all DACs. Although, if the native DSD capabilities of your DAC are not automatically recognized (DSD64 and/or DSD128 not highlighted), you can force native DSD streaming (DSD over PCM standard 1.0 is the most common streaming method found in recent DSD DACs) - DSD to PCM Algorithm: When not using native streaming, the DSD signal needs to be converted to PCM before being sent to the DAC. 64bit Multistage gives the best results and should be used except if you have CPU performance issues. Simple Decimation (the algorithm used before version 1.3) enables to convert to 96kHz for devices limited to this sample rate and not offering 88.2kHz. Hope it helps. I use it with a Mac Mini with the HDMI out, and have used it with a MacBook Pro with the MDP to HDMI cable. Ended up converting to PCM so Dirac could process the music. |
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Post by fbczar on Apr 23, 2015 7:52:32 GMT -5
I am trying to play a DSD64 download. I use Audirvana 2.0 on my IMac. The IMac is connected to the XMC-1 via a mini display port to HDMI adapter and HDMI cable. HDMI is selected on both the iMac and the XMC-1. Audirvana is setup to play native DSD,but no sound. USB works fine. DSD converted to PCM by Audirvana works fine. I would appreciate any advice on how to set things up to play DSD. Should be in the options. This is from the user manual (page 28, here's a link): DSD'playback' These options (just under the list of available sample rates) enable to select the way DSD audio is sent to the DAC, and the (if needed) DSD to PCM conversion algorithm: - Native DSD Capability: Automatic Detection should work for nearly all DACs. Although, if the native DSD capabilities of your DAC are not automatically recognized (DSD64 and/or DSD128 not highlighted), you can force native DSD streaming (DSD over PCM standard 1.0 is the most common streaming method found in recent DSD DACs) - DSD to PCM Algorithm: When not using native streaming, the DSD signal needs to be converted to PCM before being sent to the DAC. 64bit Multistage gives the best results and should be used except if you have CPU performance issues. Simple Decimation (the algorithm used before version 1.3) enables to convert to 96kHz for devices limited to this sample rate and not offering 88.2kHz. Hope it helps. I use it with a Mac Mini with the HDMI out, and have used it with a MacBook Pro with the MDP to HDMI cable. Ended up converting to PCM so Dirac could process the music. Thanks for your reply. I agree that the PCM version may be the way to go so Dirac a can be involved, and it really does sound great, even with the PCM conversion, but I would really like to see what a pure DSD stream sounds like. Which specific setting do you use in Audirvana, Automatic Detection or one of the other two DSD output settings? I have tried all three. With Automatic Detection the DSD64 and DSD 128 are grayed out. When I use the other two settings DSD64 and DSD 128 are shown in black, but in all cases no sound. |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Apr 23, 2015 8:17:57 GMT -5
[stands on soapbox] PCM with Dirac will sound better than DSD with nothing. Your room makes the biggest difference in sound not the transport coding type. Too much hype made over DSD. If it was so great why hasn't Sony released their entire catalog in this (their very own) format? Makes you think..... [/gets off soapbox]  |
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Post by markc on Apr 24, 2015 2:54:00 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply. I agree that the PCM version may be the way to go so Dirac a can be involved, and it really does sound great, even with the PCM conversion, but I would really like to see what a pure DSD stream sounds like. Which specific setting do you use in Audirvana, Automatic Detection or one of the other two DSD output settings? I have tried all three. With Automatic Detection the DSD64 and DSD 128 are grayed out. When I use the other two settings DSD64 and DSD 128 are shown in black, but in all cases no sound. As per my original reply, there is no way the XMC-1 will accept DSD over HDMI from a PC (yet???) - no PC/Mac has the hardware (or protocols?) for sending DSD straight: It has to be sent as DSD over PCM (DOP) which the XMC-1 won't accept, unfortunately, as per KeithL official response on this forum.
A SACD player like the Oppo BDP105 will send straight non transcoded DSD over HDMI (from either a SACD or DSD files) as this is in it's hardware, but it can't be done with a HTPC.
I would, however, refine my original answer for PCM conversion of DSD if you are using Dirac processing on the XMC-1:
Dirac uses 48kHz internally so it is better to convert DSD to 24 bit 48kHz PCM on the computer and output that, rather than to 24/176.4 which is mathematically better, as 24/176.4 will be reconverted to 24/48 in the XMC ready for Dirac involving two lossy conversion processes rather than one.
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Apr 24, 2015 7:14:50 GMT -5
]Dirac uses 48kHz internally so it is better to convert DSD to 24 bit 48kHz PCM on the computer and output that, rather than to 24/176.4 which is mathematically better, as 24/176.4 will be reconverted to 24/48 in the XMC ready for Dirac involving two lossy conversion processes rather than one. While mathematically 24/48 vs 24/176 there is a difference, compared to the change involved with room correction vs not at the speaker level is a whole order of magnitude greater.  In other words, picking the difference between the same song blind from 24/48 and 176 is hard. Picking room correction vs not (any room correction) blind is very easy. |
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Post by fbczar on Apr 24, 2015 7:23:56 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply. I agree that the PCM version may be the way to go so Dirac a can be involved, and it really does sound great, even with the PCM conversion, but I would really like to see what a pure DSD stream sounds like. Which specific setting do you use in Audirvana, Automatic Detection or one of the other two DSD output settings? I have tried all three. With Automatic Detection the DSD64 and DSD 128 are grayed out. When I use the other two settings DSD64 and DSD 128 are shown in black, but in all cases no sound. As per my original reply, there is no way the XMC-1 will accept DSD over HDMI from a PC (yet???) - no PC/Mac has the hardware (or protocols?) for sending DSD straight: It has to be sent as DSD over PCM (DOP) which the XMC-1 won't accept, unfortunately, as per KeithL official response on this forum.
A SACD player like the Oppo BDP105 will send straight non transcoded DSD over HDMI (from either a SACD or DSD files) as this is in it's hardware, but it can't be done with a HTPC.
I would, however, refine my original answer for PCM conversion of DSD if you are using Dirac processing on the XMC-1:
Dirac uses 48kHz internally so it is better to convert DSD to 24 bit 48kHz PCM on the computer and output that, rather than to 24/176.4 which is mathematically better, as 24/176.4 will be reconverted to 24/48 in the XMC ready for Dirac involving two lossy conversion processes rather than one.
Thanks for the reply. Can you help on this problem? I use Audirvana 2.0 on a late 2009 iMac connected to my Emotiva XMC-1 processor via an asynchronous USB port and via HDMI. There are no problems over HDMI, all the high res PCM formats play. DSD is converted to PCM. However, with USB I cannot send anything above 48kHz to my processor. For example, when I play a 24/96 file or higher that information shows at the top right of the Audirvana screen, but on the top left side of the Audirvana screen it shows: DAC: 16/48kHz Stereo. On the screen where the audio device is selected 44.1 and 48 are highlighted but all other sampling rates from 88kHz thru 192kHz are grayed out. With the USB Stream the XMC-1 shows 48kHz even when a 96/24 file is being played on the computer. With HDMI all sampling rates are available and the readout on my XMC-1 confirms it is receiving the high res file. On another subject I cannot send a DSD file to the processor via HDMI. All DSD files are converted to PCM. I love your software. I would appreciate any help you can give me. |
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Post by msamblanet on Apr 24, 2015 8:06:40 GMT -5
I cannot send a DSD file to the processor via HDMI. All DSD files are converted to PCM. As far as I know, no computer sources support DSD over HDMI as the devices/drivers do not support it. The technical "workaround" is DoP (DSD over PCM) but the XMC-1 does not support it. As for your other problem, I do not do much audio on the Mac but make sure you have the App configured to exclusive access to the sound output. Also depending on your bitrates, be aware that some cards have limits on what bitrates they support - I replaced an nVidia card in my HT computer because they did not support 88k or 176k audio (but it supported 96/192 fine). |
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Post by XTC on Apr 24, 2015 8:11:44 GMT -5
]Dirac uses 48kHz internally so it is better to convert DSD to 24 bit 48kHz PCM on the computer and output that, rather than to 24/176.4 which is mathematically better, as 24/176.4 will be reconverted to 24/48 in the XMC ready for Dirac involving two lossy conversion processes rather than one. While mathematically 24/48 vs 24/176 there is a difference, compared to the change involved with room correction vs not at the speaker level is a whole order of magnitude greater. In other words, picking the difference between the same song blind from 24/48 and 176 is hard. Picking room correction vs not (any room correction) blind is very easy. I believe marckc was saying it's better to only convert the file once. Have the computer convert DSD to 48kHz then pass it to the XMC-1 and no further conversion is going to happen, rather than have the computer convert DSD to 176.4kHz and pass it to the XMC-1 which will convert the 176.4kHz file to 48kHz. I don't know if anyone could hear the difference, or even if there is one. The theory being the less conversion of the data the better. |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Apr 24, 2015 10:50:02 GMT -5
While mathematically 24/48 vs 24/176 there is a difference, compared to the change involved with room correction vs not at the speaker level is a whole order of magnitude greater. In other words, picking the difference between the same song blind from 24/48 and 176 is hard. Picking room correction vs not (any room correction) blind is very easy. I believe marckc was saying it's better to only convert the file once. Have the computer convert DSD to 48kHz then pass it to the XMC-1 and no further conversion is going to happen, rather than have the computer convert DSD to 176.4kHz and pass it to the XMC-1 which will convert the 176.4kHz file to 48kHz. I don't know if anyone could hear the difference, or even if there is one. The theory being the less conversion of the data the better. I totally did get that. But wanted to point out that sometimes in this hobby we get caught up in these details that in the grand scheme of things make little difference audibly when compared to something big difference wise like room correction. Now if we were talking about a headphone system where these things make a bigger impact due to the isolated system, then I would not even have even brought this up. |
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Post by fbczar on Apr 25, 2015 14:43:25 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply. I agree that the PCM version may be the way to go so Dirac a can be involved, and it really does sound great, even with the PCM conversion, but I would really like to see what a pure DSD stream sounds like. Which specific setting do you use in Audirvana, Automatic Detection or one of the other two DSD output settings? I have tried all three. With Automatic Detection the DSD64 and DSD 128 are grayed out. When I use the other two settings DSD64 and DSD 128 are shown in black, but in all cases no sound. As per my original reply, there is no way the XMC-1 will accept DSD over HDMI from a PC (yet???) - no PC/Mac has the hardware (or protocols?) for sending DSD straight: It has to be sent as DSD over PCM (DOP) which the XMC-1 won't accept, unfortunately, as per KeithL official response on this forum.
A SACD player like the Oppo BDP105 will send straight non transcoded DSD over HDMI (from either a SACD or DSD files) as this is in it's hardware, but it can't be done with a HTPC.
I would, however, refine my original answer for PCM conversion of DSD if you are using Dirac processing on the XMC-1:
Dirac uses 48kHz internally so it is better to convert DSD to 24 bit 48kHz PCM on the computer and output that, rather than to 24/176.4 which is mathematically better, as 24/176.4 will be reconverted to 24/48 in the XMC ready for Dirac involving two lossy conversion processes rather than one.
Can you point me to the comments concerning DSD by Keith? |
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Post by markc on Apr 25, 2015 17:43:02 GMT -5
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Post by fbczar on Apr 25, 2015 19:51:59 GMT -5
Marks, Thanks for the link. If I am interpreting what Keith is saying correctly he is talking specifically about playing copies of SACD's rather than DSD downloads in general. It is clear that the XMC-1 will only play DSD over HDMI and it is clear it cannot play downloaded copies of SACD's. I do not think Keith is saying that DSD downloads, other than those that were made from SACD's, cannot be played on the XMC-1. Anyway, I hope I am correct. I will try to contact Keith Directly, or failing that perhaps he can comment on what we are talking about. Thanks again for your help. |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 25, 2015 21:12:20 GMT -5
Hmmm....so the problem may be with streaming DSD over the HDMI connection on the computer side of things. Keyword being having DSD being output to the HDMI output port on the PC. Possibly not the XMC-1 side.I assume the HDMI port was essentially a graphics card port that was originally meant to transport PCM audio. For instance, you can't bit stream hi-def audio data over the HDMI port due to security restrictions. The asus HDAV soundcard I believe was the only one that could. I may be off base here but maybe this article may help. It may have to do with the HDMI version on the mac. www.missingremote.com/guide/bitstreaming-hdmi-hd-audio-formats-your-htpc |
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Post by fbczar on Apr 26, 2015 0:26:43 GMT -5
Hmmm....so the problem may be with streaming DSD over the HDMI connection on the computer side of things. Keyword being having DSD being output to the HDMI output port on the PC. Possibly not the XMC-1 side.I assume the HDMI port was essentially a graphics card port that was originally meant to transport PCM audio. For instance, you can't bit stream hi-def audio data over the HDMI port due to security restrictions. The asus HDAV soundcard I believe was the only one that could. I may be off base here but maybe this article may help. It may have to do with the HDMI version on the mac. www.missingremote.com/guide/bitstreaming-hdmi-hd-audio-formats-your-htpcThanks for the link. In my system all high res formats, other than DSD, play over HDMI or USB. Unfortunately, DSD always converts to 176/24 PCM. Keith says the XMC-1 can definitely play DSD64. Must be a setting on the Mac or Audirvarna that is causing the problem. |
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Post by markc on Apr 26, 2015 4:33:16 GMT -5
At the risk of repeating myself, stop torturing yourself trying to find a solution!
A computer (PC or Mac) currently CANNOT output a pure DSD stream over HDMI. It doesn't matter that the XMC-1 accepts DSD over HDMI (You can use a SACD player like the Oppo to utilise that feature with SACD or DSD files)
There is no technical reason that it can't but it simply is not implemented.
It would require the graphics system drivers to enable it. All HDMI audio is tagged onto an HDMI video feed. It would need Intel to enable the feature in their HD Audio drivers if you are using an embedded Intel graphics solution or NVidia / AMD to write it into their HD Audio Drivers if you use one of their graphics solutions with it's attached HDMI/Display port out. Given that many NVidia graphics systems don't even enable 88.2 and 176.4 kHz frequencies, it seems unlikely they will simply include DSD.
The best hope is for Emotiva to have a change of heart and find some way of allowing the XMC-1 to accept DSD over PCM (DOP) which a computer can output as a pure DSD stream carried over a 24/192 PCM stream and wrapped / unwrapped at each end.
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Post by foggy1956 on Apr 26, 2015 7:53:51 GMT -5
Hmmm....so the problem may be with streaming DSD over the HDMI connection on the computer side of things. Keyword being having DSD being output to the HDMI output port on the PC. Possibly not the XMC-1 side.I assume the HDMI port was essentially a graphics card port that was originally meant to transport PCM audio. For instance, you can't bit stream hi-def audio data over the HDMI port due to security restrictions. The asus HDAV soundcard I believe was the only one that could. I may be off base here but maybe this article may help. It may have to do with the HDMI version on the mac. www.missingremote.com/guide/bitstreaming-hdmi-hd-audio-formats-your-htpcThanks for the link. In my system all high res formats, other than DSD, play over HDMI or USB. Unfortunately, DSD always converts to 176/24 PCM. Keith says the XMC-1 can definitely play DSD64. Must be a setting on the Mac or Audirvarna that is causing the problem. Does your PC audio card say it supports DSD? |
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Post by fbczar on Apr 26, 2015 8:32:49 GMT -5
At the risk of repeating myself, stop torturing yourself trying to find a solution! A computer (PC or Mac) currently CANNOT output a pure DSD stream over HDMI. It doesn't matter that the XMC-1 accepts DSD over HDMI (You can use a SACD player like the Oppo to utilise that feature with SACD or DSD files) There is no technical reason that it can't but it simply is not implemented. It would require the graphics system drivers to enable it. All HDMI audio is tagged onto an HDMI video feed. It would need Intel to enable the feature in their HD Audio drivers if you are using an embedded Intel graphics solution or NVidia / AMD to write it into their HD Audio Drivers if you use one of their graphics solutions with it's attached HDMI/Display port out. Given that many NVidia graphics systems don't even enable 88.2 and 176.4 kHz frequencies, it seems unlikely they will simply include DSD. The best hope is for Emotiva to have a change of heart and find some way of allowing the XMC-1 to accept DSD over PCM (DOP) which a computer can output as a pure DSD stream carried over a 24/192 PCM stream and wrapped / unwrapped at each end. Ok then, how are DSD downloads normally played if not from a computer? You do download them to a hard drive, right? Where do you go from there? Thanks. |
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Post by foggy1956 on Apr 26, 2015 8:40:04 GMT -5
At the risk of repeating myself, stop torturing yourself trying to find a solution! A computer (PC or Mac) currently CANNOT output a pure DSD stream over HDMI. It doesn't matter that the XMC-1 accepts DSD over HDMI (You can use a SACD player like the Oppo to utilise that feature with SACD or DSD files) There is no technical reason that it can't but it simply is not implemented. It would require the graphics system drivers to enable it. All HDMI audio is tagged onto an HDMI video feed. It would need Intel to enable the feature in their HD Audio drivers if you are using an embedded Intel graphics solution or NVidia / AMD to write it into their HD Audio Drivers if you use one of their graphics solutions with it's attached HDMI/Display port out. Given that many NVidia graphics systems don't even enable 88.2 and 176.4 kHz frequencies, it seems unlikely they will simply include DSD. The best hope is for Emotiva to have a change of heart and find some way of allowing the XMC-1 to accept DSD over PCM (DOP) which a computer can output as a pure DSD stream carried over a 24/192 PCM stream and wrapped / unwrapped at each end. Ok then, how are DSD downloads normally played if not from a computer? You do download them to a hard drive, right? Where do you go from there? Thanks. Let me ask again, does your PC audio card say it supports DSD playback? |
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