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Post by bolle on Jul 16, 2015 4:46:31 GMT -5
A bonus effect is that the sweet field also diminish the nead of a center speaker when looking at movies. Not for more than 1 person. If you have 4 seats in a row in a dedicated home cinema, you really WANT a dedicated center! Btw. the way you describe toeing in I also do use - but only for my tweeters in car hifi. There it makes sense to really precisely align them regarding the drivers size and in a way that they "cross" in front of the nose of the driver. This doesn´t apply to midrange and bass to the same degree - e.g. in my SQ competition car I get a very good sound stage with midrange speakers build into the dashboard and playing upwards against the windscreen. This approach works very well using the reflection from the windscreen.
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kema
Seeker Of Truth
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Post by kema on Jul 16, 2015 11:31:34 GMT -5
For all the people being so negative, why not give it a try? 45° toe-in and speaker axis crossing 3-4' in front of the listening position does indeed give a wide sweet spot.
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,230
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Post by novisnick on Jul 16, 2015 11:43:44 GMT -5
For all the people being so negative, why not give it a try? 45° toe-in and speaker axis crossing 3-4' in front of the listening position does indeed give a wide sweet spot. He did,,,,,,,,,,I didn't!
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 16, 2015 11:52:13 GMT -5
I just recently purchased Ascend Sierra 2's for use across the front. I experimented with toe-in and found that for my ears, they sound best pointed straight at me - so when I look at them I don't see either side of the cabinet. That gave really good imaging and soundstage. Toeing them out made the imaging diffused so while the soundstage may have widened, the sound as a whole was not solid. With the speakers pointed at me, everything is really solid. That isn't so good for other listening positions in the room but then I'm pretty much the only one who listens to music and with movies my wife is not nearly as picky as me about the sound. For the sweet spot, it's just right.
Seems to me that adjusting the toe in of speakers is very easy to do so instead of everyone arguing about it here, just experiment and place the speakers however sounds best to you. And as for having or not having a center channel, do the same thing. If it sounds good without the center then don't use one. The main thing is how your system sounds to your ears.
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Post by sahmen on Jul 16, 2015 12:00:24 GMT -5
For all the people being so negative, why not give it a try? 45° toe-in and speaker axis crossing 3-4' in front of the listening position does indeed give a wide sweet spot. Wow Kema! So you mean you just signed up as a lounge member a few minutes ago just so you can argue for 45 degree toe-ins? Okay, pardon my rudeness, and accept my warm and sincerely felt welcome greetings. But now, since you ask about others "being so negative," let me ask you this: what is so "negative" about refusing to torture oneself by experimenting with elusive toe-in angles, unstable sweet-spots, and ever-shifting sound-fields for one person, when one decent center-channel speaker can offer an ample, generous, spacious, and full-bodied sound stage that can serve several sweet spots, open wider sound-fields, and address the needs of several viewers, and/or listeners at the same time? Also, if you would permit me to ask--and I do this with all the politeness and courtesy I can muster at the moment--what exactly have you and Michael got against center-channel speakers? Really?
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 16, 2015 12:06:54 GMT -5
Two channel rules,...Well never mind for some odd reason I keep on repeating myself...
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 16, 2015 14:20:18 GMT -5
if you would permit me to ask--and I do this with all the politeness and courtesy I can muster at the moment--what exactly have you and Michael got against center-channel speakers? Really? Since you ask this nicely and polite... I got nothing against center-channel speakers. I have one in my home theatre for instance. The primarily advantage with sufficient toe-in is the "sweet field" effect. A bonus effect is that the sweet field also diminish the nead of a center speaker when looking at movies. But you can also have a center speaker even if the fronts are toed-in. No problem. And you´ll still profit from the sweet field. And the advantage of a center. When I said something like "a center is a waist of money" in an earlier post, I was just a little dramatic. This statement stirred up strong feelings, which make me regret saying this. OK?
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Post by sahmen on Jul 16, 2015 14:57:35 GMT -5
Michael: No worries, and no need to "regret" anything as long as we understand each other. Personally, I enjoy my 2-channel stereo as much as anyone else, in 2.1 or 2.2 format, with my two fronts properly toed-in, and I get a very ample and spacious soundstage in that configuration without feeling anything is missing... But for movie watching, I have got to have the full range multichannel thing, with the center channel firing on all cylinders. One day, one of the connectors on my center channel speaker got disconnected without me being aware of it... What I did notice, however, and immediately, was the presence of the "ghost", so to speak. The dialogue in the movie I was watching was functioning alright, loud and clear, but there was a definite and unmistakable ghostly "hole" in the middle of the soundstage, which I corrected as soon as I inspected the cables behind the speaker and noticed the disconnected banana plug.
Still, I do not begrudge those who feel they can do without the center channel speaker... I know you can still hear the dialogue clearly without the center channel, but that set-up in multichannel movie watching, is just not for me. "To each his own" is great... blah... blah... blah...
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Post by garbulky on Jul 16, 2015 15:04:23 GMT -5
So if I'm getting this correct you have compared the speakers and found the 45 degree toe in better for you? That is interesting. I have tried it on the speakers I've owned and most of the decent ones I've had needed only slight toe in. However...it was important that they were toed in precisely. The crossing in front of the listener I found just completely collapsed the stereo soundstage though it provided an exagerratedly pronounced center signal. Now that's just my experience, it is possible that there may be speakers that benefit. The point is that you try out different toe ins and figure out what works for you and use that.
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 16, 2015 15:31:05 GMT -5
I´ve been recommended to mention a certain Dr Earl Geddes as referent in the toe-in matter. He is american (I beleive) and when I search on google I find a lot. He seems to share my passion for strongly toed.in speakers. He has amongst other things written a white paper called "Directivity in Loudspeaker System" where he adresses this issue somewhat. It feels good not to be alone!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 15:33:43 GMT -5
None is arguing speakers should be toed in. Mine are in my 7.3 setup
But using a phantom center is a compromise that's all. It's doable but not ideal
Nothing compares to 3 identical identically oriented speakers across the front stage. Nothing
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 16, 2015 15:36:29 GMT -5
So if I'm getting this correct you have compared the speakers and found the 45 degree toe in better for you? Not in sweet spot. There the "exaggerated" toe-in was just as good as a slight toe-in. The benefits were off axis. The futher away from sweet spot, the greater advantage in a descent sound stage.
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Post by garbulky on Jul 16, 2015 15:38:12 GMT -5
Oh okay.
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 17, 2015 2:27:47 GMT -5
Nothing compares to 3 identical identically oriented speakers across the front stage. Nothing According to my experince, it depends on. If I start with "sweet spot": 1. If the front speakers are too far away from each other (relative the sweet spot), or 2. If the room doesn´t provide a good acuoustic environmet (=there are destructive reflexes), or 3. If there is a need for more volume output/headroom, or 4. If the front speakers aren´t good enough, All these four cases could benefit from a center speaker because the front speakers don´t create a good enough phantom center. But, if the fronts are set upp with correct distance between them (relative sweet spot), the room is well treated acousticly, there is no need for more output/headroom and the front speakers are really good - then the created phantom center will be of that quality,the center speaker at it´s best won´t be audible at all. Then why a center speaker? If there is more than one person watching a movie, at least one of them is outside the sweet spot. This person will more or less listen to just one speaker (depending on how far from sweet spot he sits). The futher from sweet spot, the nearer one of the front speakers and more on-axis that speaker. And consequently the further from the other front speaker the more off-axis. A center speaker surely helps here. The dialogue and all other information in the center channel will be clearly better perceived with a center speaker. But - a center speaker (of course) just reproduces the information from the center channel. The sound stage created by the front speakers (or the surround speakers) still will suffer when sitting ouside sweet spot. But there is a solution! Drum roll............. Toeing-in the front speakers so that the outside (somewhat chocking - I know! ) of each speaker is barely visible from sweet spot, will retain the good sound stage in sweet spot, and will also create a good sound stage outside the sweet spot. Also known as the "sweet field". One interesting bonus with getting this sweet field, is that if there is a good phantom center in sweet spot, the need of a center speaker diminishes also outside the spot. Some people even find that a center speaker in this case, contributes so little that it´s not worth the extra money. But what if there are reasons for keeping the center speaker? Then keep it, and still create a sweet field by toeing-in the front speakers. Al off this doesn´t help any of the sound stage problem sitting outside sweet spot according to the surround speakers. But that´s an other story. Note that all above is according my personal opinion based on my experience. I don´t claim to tell "the thruth, the hole thruth and nothing but the thruth". Neither were any horses, children, or audiophiles hit, hurt or damaged in any way.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 6:34:21 GMT -5
Is there an ignore feature on emo forums?
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 17, 2015 8:30:13 GMT -5
You'll be surprised of how very very very small the "sweet spot" is when you do measure it.....
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 17, 2015 8:34:23 GMT -5
Is there an ignore feature on emo forums? There is a block feature. However, that could potentially limit your ability to acquire some additional knowledge....
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 17, 2015 9:44:32 GMT -5
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 9:50:39 GMT -5
Is there an ignore feature on emo forums? There is a block feature. However, that could potentially limit your ability to acquire some additional knowledge.... You're joking right?
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 17, 2015 10:01:40 GMT -5
There is a block feature. However, that could potentially limit your ability to acquire some additional knowledge.... You're joking right? I am not joking! There really is a feature in this forum that allows you to block members.
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