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Post by ac2011 on Aug 17, 2015 7:40:35 GMT -5
I'm currently running a 7.2 system (traditional 5 + front presence speakers). Using an XPA-3 on the L/C/R, letting the Yamaha 3040 power the rest.
Specs of the Yamaha say Dynamic Power per channel at 8 ohms is 175W - no idea what that translates to in actual power on each channel (of the 4 currently being used).
Planning to expand in the following ways:
1) Adding ceiling speakers to a bonus room next door to my main system - these could/would run off the Yamaha as Zone 3.
2) Adding rear surrounds to my main system to make it 9.2 - with the configurations allowed by the Yamaha, these could also run off the Yamaha internal amps as long as I use external amplification for (at least) the front L/R, which I'm currently doing with the XPA-3.
So, realistically, I can run this full configuration right now, with a total of 11 channels, 8 of which would be run off the Yamaha internal amps. Most likely the bonus room would be used at separate times, so I probably wouldn't be running them all at the same time, although I think I could run "party mode", which would allow me to play the same things in both rooms (music only, maybe).
For HT on the main system, 6 channels would be running off the internals, with the front powered by the XPA-3.
I've long been considering adding either monoblocks (XPA-1L's or XPA-100s) or an XPA-2 to power the front L/R, and continue powering the center off the XPA-3. That would leave me 2 open channels of the XPA-3.
So, would the surrounds truly benefit from external amplification? Would it be better to power the "side" surrounds or the rears? Or should both be powered the same? (I'm assuming the front heights don't really need external amplification)
This post is already way too long, so I'll leave it at that for now. Comments welcome, please!
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 17, 2015 7:45:07 GMT -5
Surround speakers are for effects only. I'd recommend against spending any extra on dedicated amps. The AVR is adequate.
Boom
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Post by altloff on Aug 31, 2015 10:46:43 GMT -5
Doesn't matter the position, all channels will benefit from external amplification "IF" you aren't running enough power to properly drive the speaker(s). But... that receiver Should Have enough to do the job just fine.
For a while I ran 4 speakers per channel, wired I'm series/parallel, off of my 135 w/ch Pioneer, with no problem hitting reference, All of my external amplification is either a guilty pleasure or for future immersive audio.
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Post by moovtune on Aug 31, 2015 13:51:16 GMT -5
Surrounds in today's movies can be full-range, not frequency limited like in the days of plain Dolby ProLogic Surround. Whether you need more power would depend somewhat on how efficient your surround speakers are and how loud you like to play your movies and also where you cross them over to the subwoofer. From what I can find the Yamaha RX 3040 is rated at 150 wpc, 2 channels driven so your actual output with all channels would be much less but probably still enough. And the side surrounds should get the greater power over the rears since the sides are the "real" surrounds in a 5.1 film, even if you use PLIIx to generate rears. Even in 7.1 movies, the rears are not always used in every scene. So, chances are what you have is enough.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2015 14:43:14 GMT -5
Well put
To be honest (even though I don't so this myself) external amplification doesn't benefit anything as long as you don't push your speakers to clipping levels for the Avr
If your speakers are 90db sensitive or higher. There is no benefit to using external amplification
Again. This is truth. But I still don't buy it haha. I have all 9 of my speakers on external amplification in my 5.3.4 ATMOS setup
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Post by moovtune on Aug 31, 2015 15:51:05 GMT -5
I was just trying to give an honest answer, based on what I have learned over the years. But - I do subscribe to the thought that more power is better, whether it's actually used or not. My surrounds are 87db efficent and I drive them with 400 wpc. But, they would certainly do fine with 50wpc or so, I'm sure.
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Post by Gary Cook on Aug 31, 2015 18:00:34 GMT -5
The biggest single improvement I made to my 5.1 movie watching please was adding an XPA-5. My previous Denon AVR was rated at 125 watts per channel (probably more like 90 watts all channels driven) yet 200 watts per channel (with all channels driven) made a huge difference. That's like 3db extra, really, but it's far more than that, there's clarity, punch, slam, speed and just a little bit of advantage from the same amplifier sonic signature coming from all 5 channels. The Denon played loud, way louder than I listen at, so in my case it's got absolutely nothing to with absolute volume. It's the ability of the amplifier to bring out the details whilst providing the impact even at low (relative) volumes. I would add that good amplifiers never go out of date, they stay current for decades, whereas AVR's change almost monthly.
Cheers Gary
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Aug 31, 2015 19:04:58 GMT -5
Equal amplification on all channels (except LFE, it needs more) is my recommendation.
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Aug 31, 2015 20:38:22 GMT -5
Equal amplification on all channels (except LFE, it needs more) is my recommendation. Not always true IMO. My listening room is approximately 12' x 16'. The distance to my fronts(L/R) is 12'. The distance to my surrounds is only 4'. Given that: An equal power amplifier is used. Front mains and surrounds are the same speaker. Fronts are playing at 80 dB at the sweet spot. Therefore: The surrounds will be at 89.54 dB or up 9.54 dB from the fronts. The only way around this, for me, is to set the surrounds for a massive attenuation, in my case via the XMC-1, to get them balanced. Also, as can be seen from the data, this situation could use a surround amplifier with much less power. Ideally, a analog gain box to smooth out the efficiency differences between all speakers would be great. I'd rather do this than in the DSP of the processor. I know TMI!
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DLAW
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Post by DLAW on Aug 31, 2015 22:24:04 GMT -5
My first external amp was the XPA-3 and was using an Onkyo NR 906 at the time which was 145x7 or really 145x2 and was running only 5.2 at the time. I had wished I just went with the XPA-5 as the side surrounds do get a good amount of surround information, plus my speakers could handle the power and in an open basement it is not a bad thing. So it depends on the application. I have a receiver in my game room with no external amps and a cheap stereo set up in my office with an Integra receiver with no external amps. Since you have the Yamaha 3040 which is Atmos ready I would look into doing 5.2.4 with front heights and rear heights. If you want to get a two channel XPA-2 for the fronts and use the XPA-3 for the center and surrounds that would be great and leave the Yamaha for the height effects which are not too taxing on the receiver as I have learned in my experience of the Denon 4100W which I'm testing out as an Atmos prepro.
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 1, 2015 0:14:31 GMT -5
Equal amplification on all channels (except LFE, it needs more) is my recommendation. Not always true IMO. My listening room is approximately 12' x 16'. The distance to my fronts(L/R) is 12'. The distance to my surrounds is only 4'. Given that: An equal power amplifier is used. Front mains and surrounds are the same speaker. Fronts are playing at 80 dB at the sweet spot. Therefore: The surrounds will be at 89.54 dB or up 9.54 dB from the fronts. The only way around this, for me, is to set the surrounds for a massive attenuation, in my case via the XMC-1, to get them balanced. Also, as can be seen from the data, this situation could use a surround amplifier with much less power. Ideally, a analog gain box to smooth out the efficiency differences between all speakers would be great. I'd rather do this than in the DSP of the processor. I know TMI! I don't know Chuck, I have found the XPA-5 (and lately the XPA-1L's) to have far better dynamics even at the same volume as the Denon AVR (and its multiple Denon, Yamaha and Onkyo predecessors). It's not louder as such, it's more like there is more quieter stuff that I can hear. Plus when I can hear it it has more impact, it's punchier with more clarity. I found it to be not all that subtle either, it's instantly recognised. Could be just my ears in my room with my speakers of course. Cheers Gary
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Sept 1, 2015 8:39:34 GMT -5
I don't know Chuck, I have found the XPA-5 (and lately the XPA-1L's) to have far better dynamics even at the same volume as the Denon AVR (and its multiple Denon, Yamaha and Onkyo predecessors). It's not louder as such, it's more like there is more quieter stuff that I can hear. Plus when I can hear it it has more impact, it's punchier with more clarity. I found it to be not all that subtle either, it's instantly recognised. Could be just my ears in my room with my speakers of course. Cheers Gary I don't disagree here Gary, but what you say is more of a measurement of the quality of the amplifier, not its power output. I noticed a huge difference between my Onkyo AVR alone, now retired, when I added a UPA-2 and UPA-5. I didn't need more power just a cleaner amp. What I'm trying to say is that a HT system, 7.1 in my case, can have widely different power requirements for each speaker. This depends both on speaker type and distance. Even speakers that are placed in a non-symmetrical room can vary by large amounts between left and right. IMO giving Dirac or any room correction system a flat "playing field" before analysis and correction is applied is desirable. This is best done with analog attenuation. Too bad that Emotiva amps don't have individual gain controls/channel as this would be ideal. I'm not trying to suggest anything here. Just a note on the forces at work!
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 1, 2015 9:54:22 GMT -5
Equal amplification on all channels (except LFE, it needs more) is my recommendation. Not always true IMO. An equal power amplifier is used. Front mains and surrounds are the same speaker. Fronts are playing at 80 dB at the sweet spot. Therefore: The surrounds will be at 89.54 dB or up 9.54 dB from the fronts. This is only true if you do not allow the processor to adjust channel levels properly, and assumes equal signal strength which does not exist in movie soundtracks.
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Erwin.BE
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Post by Erwin.BE on Sept 7, 2015 14:04:30 GMT -5
Obviously the sensitivity and listening distance of the speakers come into play for the power requirements. And most audio comes from LCR speakers, especially the Center.
However, with this extract from Dolby's Guidelines for Hometheater Atmos in mind: Dolby Atmos audio is mixed using discrete, full-range audio objects that may move around anywhere in three-dimensional space.... I would argue, with the rest (sensitivity/distance) being equal, that all the speakers need enough (i.e., the same) power. Before Atmos, film mixers were holding back on the amount of SPL that went towards the Surrounds.
I figured out that the speakers I will build for Atmos, which are 95 dB sensitive, would need 60 Watts to be 100 % certain to be able to reach the SPL with enough headroom not to cause distortion. Most AVR's would struggle especially if the LCR are also powered by the AVR. And few speakers are 95 dB sensitive. My replaced B&W CMC (center) was 84 dB. It came alive when I added the XPR-5. I reckon 60W for 95 dB/W is about the same as 500W for 84dB/W!
Conclusion in reply to OP question: "it depends!"
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Post by garbulky on Sept 8, 2015 0:54:48 GMT -5
Hi Chuck: You are talking about unequal gain levels, not unequal amplifier power levels or did I misinterpret your post? A smaller amp doesn't play softer at the same signal. The gain does that.
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 8, 2015 18:52:09 GMT -5
I don't disagree here Gary, but what you say is more of a measurement of the quality of the amplifier, not its power output. I don't disagree either, in general AVR amplifiers don't produce the same sound quality as any Emotiva power amp, even those with a lessor power rating. My point was that I wouldn't expect a quality improvement just because of the higher wattage rating. From the poster's perspective, replacing the internal AVR amplification with an XPA-3, IMHO there would undoubtedly be a sound quality improvement with the bonus of a sound quantity improvement if so required. In summary, I'm not a subscriber to the view often expressed that "double the power is only 3db, so adding a power amplifier is a waste of time". I'm not counting the db's I'm listening to the music. Cheers Gary
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Post by altloff on Sept 9, 2015 9:50:13 GMT -5
Bottom line is that surround channels get a full range signal and the importance of those channels depends entirely on the individual listeners preferences and the value that person applies to them.
The real question isn't whether surround channels will benefit from external amplification, but do you believe the speakers you are using for that (any) channel will benefit from it.
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Post by ac2011 on Sept 9, 2015 11:33:04 GMT -5
Thanks, everyone. I guess we'll soon find out, as I have ordered XPA-100's, which I plan to use on the front left and right. XPA-3 will then power the center and the surrounds. The particular speakers are only 88dB sensitivity, so a little oomph might help them out a bit.
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Sept 9, 2015 23:06:13 GMT -5
I don't disagree here Gary, but what you say is more of a measurement of the quality of the amplifier, not its power output. I don't disagree either, in general AVR amplifiers don't produce the same sound quality as any Emotiva power amp, even those with a lessor power rating. My point was that I wouldn't expect a quality improvement just because of the higher wattage rating. From the poster's perspective, replacing the internal AVR amplification with an XPA-3, IMHO there would undoubtedly be a sound quality improvement with the bonus of a sound quantity improvement if so required. In summary, I'm not a subscriber to the view often expressed that "double the power is only 3db, so adding a power amplifier is a waste of time". I'm not counting the db's I'm listening to the music. Cheers Gary Just as I am not subscriber to the need for 100's of watts of power with a high efficiency loudspeaker. IMO it is the better amplifier that is shining through and not the power. Double the power IS only a 3db increase! That is unless you are into modifying the laws of physics! Not arguing, just my opinion!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 6:41:15 GMT -5
+1 chuck.
the ONLY reason I still have external amps for my 95 db speakers (well also that im now stuck using the amps since I need them for the 88a and its dirac) is sound quality difference between their amps and the internal avrs
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