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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 18, 2015 6:32:44 GMT -5
To start with the conventional wisdom:
Speakers with drivers as close as possible to each other enhance imaging.
Speakers with a minimal front cabinet profile enhance imaging
Speakers without grilles and without diffracting surfaces on the motor board enhance imaging
Speaker placement away from all room surfaces (including floors) enhances imaging
Wider speaker placement usually enhances imaging
Toe-in is critical for enhancing imaging
Now if all the above are true, there's no way to make a multi-driver tower speaker image like a mini-monitor. But all the above may or may not be true.
So which are true, which are false?
How does one get the best imaging out of a large, multi-driver tower speaker?
Thanks - Boom
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Post by dudeisms7 on Aug 18, 2015 12:16:22 GMT -5
Well lets not forget the room itself of course... unless your room happens to be anechoic chamber, lol. And google Haas effect for some interesting reading btw. The correct speaker placement may be impossible to write about in a post as every room and every set of speakers is going to have a different solution. Then factor in personal preferences in regard to their sound. The placement trick is to put the speakers in the room in a manner in which you use the desirable reflections but cut down on the bad reflections. For proper timing and imaging the speakers need to be exactly the same amount of distance away from your ears, and small discrepancies can be audible to a good critical listener. But room acoustics could in theory create a situation in which the speakers may need to be a slightly different distances from your ears to create level corrections. The closer the speakers are to the walls will affect the amount and quality of the bass. Most speakers need to be a foot or two away from the side and back walls to reduce early reflections which would affect the imaging. Increasing the distance from the speaker to the rear wall will increase depth, go too far and there goes your focus. Toe-in and the distance to reflective surfaces, and how the speakers radiate all play to the intensity of early reflections. Your sidewall distance will affect tonal balance and sound staging. The sidewall distance generally will influence your midrange, and the distance to the back wall will influence your bass. Its imperative these two distances, the sidewall and back walls, are never equal. Symmetry itself is generally good though. The distance between the speakers is influenced by your listening position.... and here is where we really get into personal preferences. I'm of the school of going for a equilateral triangle set-up when possible. But as there are a lot of variables, experimentation is necessary... one may find that even the slightest re-positioning of the speakers can in some cases have dramatic effects that play into or out of your own sonic preferences. A good starting point may be to look at the manufacturer recommendations for placement... then play with the placement from there to work with your room (and perhaps sometimes your wife). Increasing the distance between your speakers will widen the soundstage (it will eventually fall apart with too much distance). If you go the other direction you will get more of a center focus.. which some may personally prefer. When going wide... don't forget that proximity to the side walls affects your midrange... so this plays into everything again. Toe-in heavily plays towards personal preference. And it also depends on the type of speakers that you have. There is no one "catch all" for toe-in. Some speakers need none, some some, some a lot. In addition to your personal preferences in sound... you also want to achieve the right amount of center fill for your own preferences. Tilt may or may not come into play for your preferences and equipment.... Height as well. All of these factors can positively or negatively affect your sound. And one person's preferences surely will be different to another. Some people like coloration, some don't for example. Different strokes for different folks.
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Post by wilburthegoose on Aug 18, 2015 12:22:42 GMT -5
It's funny that we all spend so much time and effort on this aspect. Can you imagine a concert tour spending time on this beyond their daily sound check session  |
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Post by garbulky on Aug 18, 2015 12:42:00 GMT -5
One issue you'll run up going to small speakers. The cross over on your subs will have to be raised past 60 hz. And you know what that did (muddied stuff up). You will be trading off one for another imo. Your axioms are darn good at what they do  Also you sit quite a ways away from them. And the midrange goes full range no crossover there. So there is more coherence than you think I think trading speakers off for 2 ways in the same price range is an exercise in compromise. They sound good but you'll eventually see the flaws quicker than you would with your axioms. They won't be able to handle the SPL's your axiom can in dynamics. And even if their cutoff is specified as - what have you - it will be a lot higher in your actual room. The axioms have the ability to put some serious heft in the mid range. The other speakers I've heard in your room can't quite do it. They have a fake heft. I suggest trying out the iggy and then seeing if you are getting the same coherence out of the axioms. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 18, 2015 16:21:01 GMT -5
Hi dudeisms7 - Good points, all, and YES sometimes (not always but sometimes) small changes in position DO make big changes in sound. Curiously enough, I can sometimes even toe speakers OUTWARD and get very interesting effects. My best sounds have come from having the garbulky take the drivers seat on the listening couch & then having him coach me on where to move the speakers for the best image. Hi wilburthegoose - Roadies are already overworked, underpaid, and foaming at the mouth crazy! LOL Hi garbulky - No, I don't think it was the subwoofers themselves making the mud. I think it was the room. When I lowered the crossover, the subs are clean as a whistle. With bookshelf speakers, I wouldn't cross over an octave above the 3dB down point. Instead, I'd run the wee things to their lower limits (although to say "full range" with small speakers is somewhat silly), and then bring in the subs underneath with the low-pass crossovers on the subs themselves (ala DYohn). I plan to test the theory soon. I have the following supposedly coming by for a listen: ProAc Studio 118s - Janszen ZA-1.1s - LSA-1 Signature Monitors    |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Aug 18, 2015 16:30:00 GMT -5
BoomzillaSimple...sell them and buy some Maggie's.  Mark
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 18, 2015 16:41:33 GMT -5
Maggies (and Martin Logans) DO image wonderfully, but they need a room that is mostly symmetrical from right to left to work their best. Alas, mine isn't...
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 18, 2015 16:45:23 GMT -5
BoomzillaSimple...sell them and buy some Maggie's. Mark Yeah, exactly. Or maybe some Wilson's cause I've never heard anyone complain about Wilson's sound (looks yes, sound, no). And with all the money you've spent (and wasted in my mind) over the years you could have afforded darned near anything by now. Just give it up already. You will never be happy.   You are like people who are constantly buying new cars. In the same amount of time I've had my 370Z a guy I work with is now on his 3rd brand new Camaro. Talk about whacked. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Aug 18, 2015 16:53:25 GMT -5
Building on bonzo's point, build a perfect room and you will be $ ahead! Mark |
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 18, 2015 16:55:38 GMT -5
Building on bonzo's point, build a perfect room and you will be $ ahead! Mark He's been telling us he's moving soon for years now. I think that move needs to get moved higher up the list. I mean the room he has must be an audio POS nightmare. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 18, 2015 18:09:15 GMT -5
Moving awaits seeing whether son in law gets tenure. Existing room is better than most, but never perfect. What have I gotten from the equipment-go-round? Experience. Was it worth it? To me, yes. if I were doing it with $$ I didn't have, then yes, it would have been foolish. But I've earned my money, educated my child, supported my family, and paid my taxes. Besides, think of all the Emporium buyers who'd be worse off without me! |
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Post by dudeisms7 on Aug 18, 2015 18:24:12 GMT -5
Hi dudeisms7 - Good points, all, and YES sometimes (not always but sometimes) small changes in position DO make big changes in sound. Curiously enough, I can sometimes even toe speakers OUTWARD and get very interesting effects. My best sounds have come from having the garbulky take the drivers seat on the listening couch & then having him coach me on where to move the speakers for the best image. Hi wilburthegoose - Roadies are already overworked, underpaid, and foaming at the mouth crazy! LOL Hi garbulky - No, I don't think it was the subwoofers themselves making the mud. I think it was the room. When I lowered the crossover, the subs are clean as a whistle. With bookshelf speakers, I wouldn't cross over an octave above the 3dB down point. Instead, I'd run the wee things to their lower limits (although to say "full range" with small speakers is somewhat silly), and then bring in the subs underneath with the low-pass crossovers on the subs themselves (ala DYohn). I plan to test the theory soon. I have the following supposedly coming by for a listen: ProAc Studio 118s - Janszen ZA-1.1s - LSA-1 Signature Monitors Yeah I've read your posts before where you had mentioned that things were toe-d out. Kinda blows my mind that you do that. But I've read enough of your posts to determine that you're a persnickety sort of fellow (Thats a compliment by the way) that knows what he is doing and what he likes in his sound... so more power to you! Just curious are the toe-d out speakers horn loaded? |
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 18, 2015 18:38:45 GMT -5
No - Actually I've tried at least two pairs of speakers toed out. The first were a pair of Definitive Technology Studiomonitor (sic) 65 speakers:  The second pair are my current Axiom M80s  In both cases, the absence of direct sound made the speakers image far differently, but provided a much richer "tone" to music. In effect, you're listening more to the room when the speakers are toed out. Try it - It's different! |
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Post by vneal on Aug 18, 2015 19:34:58 GMT -5
To start with the conventional wisdom: Speakers with drivers as close as possible to each other enhance imaging. TRUE Speakers with a minimal front cabinet profile enhance imaging TRUE Speakers without grilles and without diffracting surfaces on the motor board enhance imaging TRUE, ALTHOUGH THE GRILL IS PART OF THE DESIGN ON A FEW SPEAKERS, ALA THIEL Speaker placement away from all room surfaces (including floors) enhances imaging YES--LESS STANDING WAVES Wider speaker placement usually enhances imaging YES Toe-in is critical for enhancing imaging FALSE. VARIES PER SPEAKERS Now if all the above are true, there's no way to make a multi-driver tower speaker image like a mini-monitor. But all the above may or may not be true. So which are true, which are false? How does one get the best imaging out of a large, multi-driver tower speaker? BY EXPERIMENTING WITH LOCATION. SOMETIMES IT IS NOT POSSIBLE Thanks - Boom ProAc are fine sounding monitors. My opinions are noted above. |
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Post by jjkessler on Aug 18, 2015 20:12:37 GMT -5
My M80's are slightly toed in and I have not yet tried toed out. My room is 20'x40'x9'tall where my M80's are 4' in from the side walls, about 18" from the back wall, and about a 15 degree toe in.
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 18, 2015 20:52:46 GMT -5
Hi vneal - Thanks - I appreciate the comments Hi !jjkessler - I wish I had your room! LOL |
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Post by frisco on Aug 18, 2015 21:52:44 GMT -5
I just had an interesting experience. In my front room I have phase tech 0.5 that bottom at 58, and bass has been a problem since I moved my dc1 upstairs , swapping it for a dragon fly. Any way, I moved my 24 inch speaker stands upstairs and brought down 18 inch stands. The bass on the phase techs went from about 7 on a scale of 20 ( 10 being ideal) to about 11.5. I think it might be that the bottom 2 ft or so of the wall is much heavier wood than the rest of the interior wall which is real thin and the rear port of the speaker is now directed at the denser part of the wall. Does that make sense acoustically? I've got wood floors too, so maybe lowering the speaker height had an impact on the floor.
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Post by frisco on Aug 18, 2015 21:58:16 GMT -5
I just had an interesting experience. In my front room I have phase tech 0.5 that bottom at 58, and bass has been a problem since I moved my dc1 upstairs , swapping it for a dragon fly. Any way, I moved my 24 inch speaker stands upstairs and brought down 18 inch stands. The bass on the phase techs went from about 7 on a scale of 20 ( 10 being ideal) to about 11.5. I think it might be that the bottom 2 ft or so of the wall is much heavier wood than the rest of the interior wall which is real thin and the rear port of the speaker is now directed at the denser part of the wall. Does that make sense acoustically? I've got wood floors too, so maybe lowering the speaker height had an impact on the floor.
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Post by garbulky on Aug 19, 2015 2:19:07 GMT -5
Lowering them probably helped reinforce da bazz Also the angle that you had them toed in may have changed and so the rear port may have been angled better at the rear wall. I know when I change the toei in the bass changes a bit with my axiom as they are near the rear wall.
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 19, 2015 3:00:15 GMT -5
I suspect that rather than port behavior, the closer proximity to the floor provided some bass reinforcement.
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Also you sit quite a ways away from them. And the midrange goes full range no crossover there. So there is more coherence than you think 
You are like people who are constantly buying new cars. In the same amount of time I've had my 370Z a guy I work with is now on his 3rd brand new Camaro. Talk about whacked.
