Dolby Atmos review using the Denon AVR-X4100W as a PrePro

[DLAW]

Ok. So I got the Denon AVR-X4100W on open-box from BestBuy to try out Dolby Atmos to see if it is worth the wait and hype. I am waiting on DTS-X and 13.2 processing so this might fill in the gap right now or go back before the 15 day return period. Before that I bought the Denon I was using an Integra DHC 80.3 as my pre-pro

I have an open basement with a curved sectional couch and the base 9.1 speakers (Front, Center, Sides, Surround Rear and Front Wides) are set in more of an oval around the room and couch. The front heights are slightly more forward & wider than that of the front speakers and rear heights are slightly behind & a little wider than the surround backs also both heights are tilted towards the listener.


So I have a 13.2 (technically 9.2.4) speaker set up with Def Tech 7002 (built in 12 inch woofers), SuperCube 1, CLR 2500, BPX side surrounds, Studio Monitor 350’s in the surround backs and for front wides. For the heights, I have Def Tech ProCinema 100’s (same as the 1000’s but without the gloss and passive radiator) in a front height and rear height configuration. I am using the Denon mostly as a preamp with it only powering the front wides. I am using a Cinenova Grande 7 for the standard 7.1 set up and a Harman PA 5800 for the front and rear height channels.


Now to clear things up about Atmos...you do not have use ceiling speakers or Dolby upfiring speakers to take advantage of the height effects for Atmos. You can use the old DTS Neo X or Dolby Pro Logic II Z/X speaker layouts just tilt the speakers a little so that they are aimed at the listener. I chose the 9.1 configuration in the amp assignment of the Denon and chose 4 heights (front & rear). The most you can have (with this model) is the Dolby Atmos 5.2.4 configuration which is the standard 5.1/.2 with 4 height speakers or top speakers (if using ceiling speakers).


I tried different configurations to see what actually works and sounds good. I tried the Dolby Surround up mixer on a couple non-Atmos Blu Rays (DREDD & Pacific Rim) and would not invest in Atmos to use the upmixer. I tried 5.1 with front wides and 2 heights (front). The 5.1 with front wides and front height was just too much in front and did not feel like you were in the movie. So my best configurations were the 5.2.4 and the 7.2.2 are far as feeling more surrounded in sound. I also disabled all the heights and had Dolby Atmos as a traditional 7.1 mix.


The only Atmos movie I have is John Wick so my review is based on that. Now the difference between Dolby TruHD 7.1 mix and Dolby Atmos in 7.1 (without heights). The Dolby Atmos mix was more natural with sound effects and ambiance like the rain coming down in the scene at the cemetery. There is a scene outside the club where the bass to the club music was tighter and fuller with the Atmos mix and another scene inside the club where the surround ambiance effects were much smoother and natural (like I was there vs sound coming out of a speaker). Now the 5.2.4 made the rain (scene at the cemetery) surround you like a bubble; it was similar with the 7.2.2 however the surround back speakers are what filled the gap for the sound that should have been above me. Inside the club the music is above and around you in the 5.2.4 mix and with the 7.2.2 mix the surround backs filling the gap for the rear height effects.


My conclusions are not to invest a lot in amplification for the height channels or buy expensive speakers for heights. If you are 70%-100% home theater usage I would recommend a receiver with processing of 9 (5.2.4) and or 11 (7.2.4) channels. Which you need will depend on if you have a 5.1 base or 7.1 base set up and a 5 channel (XPA-5) or 7 channel (XPA-7) separate amp for the base channels. I would check to see if the receiver lets you assign the internal amps so the receiver can power up to 4 heights. The Denon AVR-x4100W only can power one set of heights. I would not waste my money on a high end processor if you are like me and always changing with technology then this will allow you to change with the times and easily resell your gear to put towards something new. If this is also for music or analog sources then a separate processor like the Marantz AV 8802A or the new Yamaha RX-A5100 (that is coming out soon) might fit the bill (and both support DTS-X). Of couse, there is the ultra-high end reference series processor from EMOT that is in development which I want to see how it will change the market place as 11 channels are not enough for the basement home theater buff/or dedicated theater people with the extra space and extra speakers.

P.S. Now about costs for me to upgrade to Atmos . The Denon cost me $625 (open-box) at Best Buy. The height speakers cost me about $125 for all 4 on Ebay. The Harman PA5800 which I am using to power the heights cost about $175 on Ebay.

[novisnick]

Nice review! Well thought out and forward thinking. I savored every word.

Ive had a 11.6 system but never an Atmos, your write up was insightful. Thanks so bery much.

[wilburthegoose]

DLAW - Thanks for the review!

So - will you be taking the Denon back? Doesn't sound like it

[DLAW]

Aug 30, 2015 19:30:07 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Nice review! Well thought out and forward thinking. I savored every word.

Ive had a 11.6 system but never an Atmos, your write up was insightful. Thanks so bery much.

I’m glad you enjoyed the review. I tried to cover things that people might want to know about Dolby Atmos from the average joe perspective vs the professional reviewer. So you have a 11.6 system… sounds like you might need some more subs in you system..... maybe 11.11 is what you need so you have a sub for each speaker ....haha

[DLAW]

Aug 31, 2015 6:39:39 GMT -5 wilburthegoose said:

DLAW - Thanks for the review!

So - will you be taking the Denon back? Doesn't sound like it

I may be returning the Denon as I need at least 7.2.4 for my system. It was such as good price and already out of the box (well the demo unit) and I would not feel bad about returning a demo unit that I really only intended to test. I wanted to test if 7.2.4 was worth it vs 5.2.4 and in my set up I need the surround backs to complete the Atmosphere aka Atmos bubble of sound. But I have to say I was impressed with the GUI and the sound of the Denon vs the Integra. I'm not saying one is better than the other just saying I was going in with low expectations and came out impressed.

[novisnick]

Aug 31, 2015 21:08:46 GMT -5 DLAW said:

Aug 30, 2015 19:30:07 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Nice review! Well thought out and forward thinking. I savored every word.

Ive had a 11.6 system but never an Atmos, your write up was insightful. Thanks so bery much.

I’m glad you enjoyed the review. I tried to cover things that people might want to know about Dolby Atmos from the average joe perspective vs the professional reviewer. So you have a 11.6 system… sounds like you might need some more subs in you system..... maybe 11.11 is what you need so you have a sub for each speaker ....haha

I have since reconfigured that system but I never use them for two channel. They're only for HT.


I have witnessed the Death Star Explosion!!! ( audibly and physically )


                                                                

                                 

[DLAW]

Now I did want to cover some other things about the heights. I was able to turn off my Cinenova Grande 7 so only the heights were on. In certain scenes with music like outside the hotel where Marilyn Manson is playing above you and other ambient sounds within different scenes. With the gun fight in the club there was a little bit of bullet sounds but not as much as you would expect in the an action film. It might not make sense to have bullet sounds above you if being directly shot at…but what do I know….I’ve never been shot at…hahaha (I am not making light of the tragic shootings that have been happening recently in the news and want to make sure no one thinks that I am being insensitive. I hope to never have that experience as I have friends and family members that have had that terrible experience).

To elaborate about the 5.1 with the front wides and front heights set up. I had mentioned on how it was front heavy in that configuration. I did stand in front of the wides to hear want sound was coming out of them and it was music but only for a few seconds then would go silent. I thought there was something wrong with the receiver but I ended up figuring out that the sound sent to the wides was scene dependent and did not receive the same amount of surround information as the height channels. So if you do not have wides you are not missing much. But if you have wides keep in mind the only brands that support wides (at the moment) are Denon, Marantz, Onkyo/Integra (but do not have Audyssey anymore) and I believe Pioneer. So make sure to check the manual to be sure but keep in mind that right now the most you can do is 9.2.2. Based on what I heard from the wides the 7.2.4 might be better configuration for moment and just wait (and hold on to your wides) for technology to get better processing for 9.2.4 of even 9.2.6 (we hope). Ok there is a processor that is like $20K or something that does 16 channels but in real life your options are what I mentioned previously. Or of course when that EMO Reference processor comes out and makes it a realistic goal to achieve.

[creimes]

Nice write up, my room is too small for that many speakers haha, 5.2 is currently my setup well actually 5.1 as my other sub driver is getting repaired(Shipping damage), though I would love to have a room large enough to expand my system but for now I will enjoy my 5.2 setup.

Chad

[wilburthegoose]

DLAW - Have you tried listening to two-channel music with all the speakers engaged? I'm curious to read your observations.

[DLAW]

Ok. A friend of mine loaned me some Atmos titles; the Transformers movie and Insurgent. I was first listening to Atmos as just 7.1 mix and was pretty impressed on how good it was sounding but thought I should be hearing more of the height surround information. I then figured out that I did not have the heights engaged. So once I engaged the heights boy was I disappointed by what I was hearing or the lack there of. I then turned off the Cinenova so only the heights were on. Man oh man do these early Atmos movies stink. They just want to slap an Atmos label on them. For example in the Transformers movie when the government is about to shoot Marky Mark’s daughter and Optimus Prime comes busting out of the barn…. well there is no sound from the heights of debris flying or nothing. Then when the helicopter is shooting missiles at Optimus… nope nada just a little bit of music. Ok now what about that really cool part were Galvatron turns into floating metal pieces to avoid attack…. well that transforming sound lasted about two seconds and did not even pan completely across the screen. Only when Bubble Bee (when hanging under the bridge) shoots the missiles at Galvatron does the sound come alive for a second or two.


Now Insurgent… ok so if you want to hear the heights at all just go straight to chapters 12-15. This is basically towards the end of the movie when Tris is in that simulation chamber with the wires floating in the air so they can unlock that box of limitless knowledge. Only when she is in the simulation chamber, doing the simulation…. saving her mom from the floating house of death and other simulation tests does the heights come alive. Now I did not listen with the 5.1 base speakers engage as I just wanted to hear the heights so that way you and I know what we are really investing in. So Atmos does improve the regular 7.1 or 5.1 mix without the need of heights but that is my opinion and your mileage may differ. I see that it depends more on the mix of the sound engineer for that movie and not the technology. I am being critical in this review but it reminds me of when I bought 3D TVS and the first 3D movies were just terrible 2D conversions selling for $40 bucks.


I will try to sit through these movies this week now that I know which screens to review and will have 5.2.4 engaged so I can give the complete assessment. As I said before do not buy an XPR-5 for your heights speakers find a UPA-5 or UPA-500 on ebay or someone selling on the forums. Try to find the same brand of speakers of base 5.1 or 7.1 set up but in the smaller satellite version that has the same or similar tweeters. That is all for tonight.

[DLAW]

Sept 1, 2015 7:12:17 GMT -5 wilburthegoose said:

DLAW - Have you tried listening to two-channel music with all the speakers engaged? I'm curious to read your observations.

Well the Denon does have an all stereo mode but it did not engage the height speakers (I think I will have to test again). But I did try the Dolby surround upmixer and all it did was send the music to the center channel. I then turned off the Cinenova so only the heights were on and there was barely any sound coming out for music.... it was like a very faint Dolby Pro Logic type of matrix or echo of sound.... if you know what I mean. I will check the all stereo mode again to make sure I did not miss something.

[DLAW]

Aug 31, 2015 23:21:15 GMT -5 creimes said:

Nice write up, my room is too small for that many speakers haha, 5.2 is currently my setup well actually 5.1 as my other sub driver is getting repaired(Shipping damage), though I would love to have a room large enough to expand my system but for now I will enjoy my 5.2 setup.

Chad

Thanks. Chad. Hey you have plenty of room.... just hang a set of speakers on the wall above your fronts and on the back wall above the surrounds then you got 5.2.4. You can do it.  But based on my latest findings it is ok to wait.... as some movies are not even taken full advantage of the technology..just check was latest review...you will hear the frustration in the post...hahaha

[creimes]

Sept 1, 2015 21:44:17 GMT -5 DLAW said:

Aug 31, 2015 23:21:15 GMT -5 creimes said:

Nice write up, my room is too small for that many speakers haha, 5.2 is currently my setup well actually 5.1 as my other sub driver is getting repaired(Shipping damage), though I would love to have a room large enough to expand my system but for now I will enjoy my 5.2 setup.

Chad

Thanks. Chad. Hey you have plenty of room.... just hang a set of speakers on the wall above your fronts and on the back wall above the surrounds then you got 5.2.4. You can do it.  But based on my latest findings it is ok to wait.... as some movies are not even taken full advantage of the technology..just check was latest review...you will hear the frustration in the post...hahaha

Yeah Ièm not one for falling for the latest greatest thing(supposedly) anyways, I always wait till pricing comes down for any of the newly released formats in audio and video, I didn't even want my TV with the 3D and smart functions but the model below was of course out of stock so I had to pay for stuff I will never use

Here is my front stage with not much room for more speakers hahaha, my wife already thinks it's ridiculous looking

[DLAW]

Sept 1, 2015 22:00:14 GMT -5 creimes said:

Sept 1, 2015 21:44:17 GMT -5 DLAW said:

Thanks. Chad. Hey you have plenty of room.... just hang a set of speakers on the wall above your fronts and on the back wall above the surrounds then you got 5.2.4. You can do it.  But based on my latest findings it is ok to wait.... as some movies are not even taken full advantage of the technology..just check was latest review...you will hear the frustration in the post...hahaha

Yeah Ièm not one for falling for the latest greatest thing(supposedly) anyways, I always wait till pricing comes down for any of the newly released formats in audio and video, I didn't even want my TV with the 3D and smart functions but the model below was of course out of stock so I had to pay for stuff I will never use

Here is my front stage with not much room for more speakers hahaha, my wife already thinks it's ridiculous looking

Move that clock and you got plenty of space...hahaha. You can hang them above the front speakers you have space but wait for the technology to improve and prices to drop. I only picked up this Denon because of the open box price and no guilt of returning an open item/demo unit back to the store. I have the same complaints from my girlfriend.  See if the sound treatments can be silk screened with pictures of you and her and hang them up so they look like real pictures. She will love that you were thinking of her. Put some fake flowers on top of the subs...anything to make it look less like what they are...speakers. I'm telling you women are all the same. My girl is always complaining about the HSU VTF-3 Mk5 that I have in the living room but she is in the living room bumping music or watching a lifetime movie enjoying the sound. Smh.

[jevans64]

My gear is in my sig. Having ceiling speakers in the top middle, right above my MLP, and using the Front Height works best for me in Atmos.

[DLAW]

Sept 2, 2015 13:12:40 GMT -5 jevans64 said:

My gear is in my sig. Having ceiling speakers in the top middle, right above my MLP, and using the Front Height works best for me in Atmos.

jevans64-I see that (based on your signature) you were able assign the receiver's amps to power the surround backs and 4 pairs of heights. That is cool... especially for those who already own a 5 or 7 channel amp and just want to use a receiver to power the backs and heights (which I suggest over spending money on more amps). What movies have you tried in Atmos? What are your experiences with Atmos as I only can do 5.2.4? Do you share the same disappointment about certain movies do not really using the heights? Does it seem that the base 7.1 Atmos mix is the reason for that "improved atmospheric sound" ?

[jevans64]

I have those pairs wired up but the X7200WA can only process 2 pairs of height/top speakers at a time. Any internal amp channels that aren't used can be re-assigned in Custom Amp Assign. As far as movies, I have Insurgent, Expendables 3, Transformers Age of Extinction. I'm still pondering popping for the Gravity SE with Atmos. Mad Max 3D, San Andreas 3D, and Tomorrowland are on pre-order. The weakest of the three I have is Transformers, which really doesn't use the top speakers until very late in the movie when the Autobot mothership uses the magnetic thingy. Expendables 3 probably uses it the most since there are a lot of helicopter scenes and, of course, plenty of shooting. Insurgent is more subtle and only stands out in the faction simulations Tris has to pass. Don't really care for them rebooting Mad Max, but I'm hearing good things about the use of Atmos on that release. Ex Machina is the only DTS:X release I have now.

Both Insurgent and Expendables have the Atmos demo which plays before the movie starts. The demo uses all the speakers more than the movies so far.

Not sure if you are aware but folks are pairing two Denon receivers ( like a 4200/5200 and 7200 ) together to get 13/15 speaker setups. They are basically setting one up to use 2 pairs and the other to use 2 more pairs. They are mainly doing that to get back their Front Wide speakers while still using the Rear and 4 Height/Top speakers.

[Deleted]

Mad max is by far the best used ATMOS movie

John wick is good as well

The ATMOS demos really rely show off the ability of ATMOS. They are incredible. And the one from insurgent isn't even the most impressive one

[Erwin.BE]

Aug 31, 2015 21:58:41 GMT -5 DLAW said:

Now I did want to cover some other things about the heights. I was able to turn off my Cinenova Grande 7 so only the heights were on. In certain scenes with music like outside the hotel where Marilyn Manson is playing above you and other ambient sounds within different scenes. With the gun fight in the club there was a little bit of bullet sounds but not as much as you would expect in the an action film. It might not make sense to have bullet sounds above you if being directly shot at…but what do I know….I’ve never been shot at…hahaha (I am not making light of the tragic shootings that have been happening recently in the news and want to make sure no one thinks that I am being insensitive. I hope to never have that experience as I have friends and family members that have had that terrible experience).

To elaborate about the 5.1 with the front wides and front heights set up. I had mentioned on how it was front heavy in that configuration. I did stand in front of the wides to hear want sound was coming out of them and it was music but only for a few seconds then would go silent. I thought there was something wrong with the receiver but I ended up figuring out that the sound sent to the wides was scene dependent and did not receive the same amount of surround information as the height channels. So if you do not have wides you are not missing much. But if you have wides keep in mind the only brands that support wides (at the moment) are Denon, Marantz, Onkyo/Integra (but do not have Audyssey anymore) and I believe Pioneer. So make sure to check the manual to be sure but keep in mind that right now the most you can do is 9.2.2. Based on what I heard from the wides the 7.2.4 might be better configuration for moment and just wait (and hold on to your wides) for technology to get better processing for 9.2.4 of even 9.2.6 (we hope). Ok there is a processor that is like $20K or something that does 16 channels but in real life your options are what I mentioned previously. Or of course when that EMO Reference processor comes out and makes it a realistic goal to achieve.

Nice write-up...

A few things:

1/ With only two elevated speakers, Top Middle is preferred. You don't mention where your Front Heights actually are. Less than 30° elevation would reduce the feeling of 3D.
2/ The Dolby Surround upmixer (AKA DSU) does not use the Front Wides. Dolby claims this is to make sure the front stage is not suffering. This maybe why you say you don't hear much of the Wides.
3/ The processor you nation is the Trinnov Altitude and can be had with 8/16/24/32 channels. Fantastic device but as you say, not for us average Joe's.
4/ +1 for the big Emo processor AKA the XMR-1!