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Post by brubacca on Nov 20, 2015 16:32:37 GMT -5
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Post by garbulky on Nov 20, 2015 16:56:08 GMT -5
Gugnir multibit. Jump yourself in to multibit!
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Post by brubacca on Nov 20, 2015 17:07:17 GMT -5
Is Multibit really that much better than regular DACs? .. Is it more realistic in tone for drums and other instruments. Would it make drums sound Real?
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,002
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Post by KeithL on Nov 20, 2015 17:28:53 GMT -5
I really have to jump in here with a general comment.... In technical terms, both multi-bit and delta-sigma DACS have advantages and disadvantages, but most of those only really count at the design level, and there are several other factors that are at least as important. In other words, either a multi-bit DAC or a delta-sigma DAC can sound good or bad - depending on how good the rest of the design is and how well it's implemented. Originally, all DACs were multi-bit, then, as delta-sigma DACs started offering better performance at lower cost, multi-bit DACs dropped out of the market almost entirely. The whole idea that multi-bit DACs are inherently better, but were replaced by inferior delta-sigma DACs because they were so much cheaper, is a great story - but it isn't entirely true. (And saying so is sort of like suggesting that we should all go back to horses "because they're better".) How well a specific DAC is designed and built is going to have a much greater impact on how it sounds than whether it happens to be multi-bit or delta-sigma (and, in point of fact, virtually all modern delta-sigma DACs are multi-bit delta-sigma DACs anyway). I currently own three of Schiit's DACs, and I've heard several more, and all of them offer excellent value for their price point, and sound very good... so I"m sure you wouldn't be unhappy with any model you might purchase... but I wouldn't be expecting a dramatic difference because one or another happens to be multi-bit or delta-sigma (in fact, I wouldn't bet on being able to tell which was which; and, if you can, any differences are going to be very subtle). Please note "just for the record" that I'm not especially a fan of the coloration introduced by tube amps, and I would much prefer spending more money on a better DAC to get a more accurate result, than on a tube amp to get a less accurate result, so I would definitely cast my vote in favor of spending the money on a better DAC .... Is Multibit really that much better than regular DACs? .. Is it more realistic in tone for drums and other instruments. Would it make drums sound Real?
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Post by brubacca on Nov 20, 2015 17:34:53 GMT -5
I really have to jump in here with a general comment.... In technical terms, both multi-bit and delta-sigma DACS have advantages and disadvantages, but most of those only really count at the design level, and there are several other factors that are at least as important. In other words, either a multi-bit DAC or a delta-sigma DAC can sound good or bad - depending on how good the rest of the design is and how well it's implemented. Originally, all DACs were multi-bit, then, as delta-sigma DACs started offering better performance at lower cost, multi-bit DACs dropped out of the market almost entirely. The whole idea that multi-bit DACs are inherently better, but were replaced by inferior delta-sigma DACs because they were so much cheaper, is a great story - but it isn't entirely true. (And saying so is sort of like suggesting that we should all go back to horses "because they're better".) How well a specific DAC is designed and built is going to have a much greater impact on how it sounds than whether it happens to be multi-bit or delta-sigma (and, in point of fact, virtually all modern delta-sigma DACs are multi-bit delta-sigma DACs anyway). I currently own three of Schiit's DACs, and I've heard several more, and all of them offer excellent value for their price point, and sound very good... so I"m sure you wouldn't be unhappy with any model you might purchase... but I wouldn't be expecting a dramatic difference because one or another happens to be multi-bit or delta-sigma (in fact, I wouldn't bet on being able to tell which was which; and, if you can, any differences are going to be very subtle). Is Multibit really that much better than regular DACs? .. Is it more realistic in tone for drums and other instruments. Would it make drums sound Real? This has been my hesitation. The only DAC i have heard that reproduces specifically percussion correctly is the DAC in a $7,000 CD player. That CD player uses a Burr-Brown DAC that is a R2R ( multibit?) Dac. A $7k cd player is way out of budget. A $1,300 DAC that woukd give me the real percussion sound coukd be obtainable.
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Post by garbulky on Nov 20, 2015 17:39:51 GMT -5
I'm putting my money that it's better. I'm going for the yggy! Also it's not just the DAC. The filter is supposed to be better at time and phase mathematically. There is no other filter on the market that is closed form like it.
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Post by brubacca on Nov 20, 2015 17:41:56 GMT -5
Let me know about Iggy whan you get it. I am also interested although it would take me another year to save up for it.
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Post by garbulky on Nov 20, 2015 17:44:38 GMT -5
Let me know about Iggy whan you get it. I am also interested although it would take me another year to save up for it. Don't worry it's going to take me at least that long too
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Post by audiobill on Nov 20, 2015 17:48:32 GMT -5
I guess emo isn't into tubes, after all......
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Post by brubacca on Nov 20, 2015 17:50:27 GMT -5
I know that i am generalizing... The sound is more than the DAC. What i actually care about is the overall sound.
I have a really good digital transport. If a multi-bit dac gets me to REAL sounding drums/ trumpet in my music than great.
So far i have tried: XDA-1, Rega DAC, Meridian Explorer, Naim UnitiQute, Oppo BDP-103....
None of them has gotten me to the sound of that awesome CD Player. It's not that i am unhappy where I am now. If the multibit Gugnir (or Iggy) gets me there now, great. If inhave to wait, wait I will.
If i can't get there without big $$$$$$ then I'd rather work on the TV system and get the Rogue RP-1. (I'd also love to consider a Emotiva Equivalent, but that doesn't appear to be coming. I have to think that Emotiva could offer the RP-1 at like $800)
Just for Irony sake... I am listening to Vinyl right now. Maybe I should just get $1,300 worth of Vinyl?
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,002
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Post by KeithL on Nov 20, 2015 17:55:57 GMT -5
The problem there is that you're basing your opinion on one single DAC, in one single product...... which correlates about as well as saying "I've only ever driven in one really fast sports car and it had leather seats, so I assume leather seats make a car go fast". To put it bluntly, while I would really hope that a $7k CD player would sound good, I wouldn't assume that the only reason it sounded good is because of the DAC chip they chose to use in it. Some people are dead set convinced that R2R DACs sound better (like the multi-bit Gungnir). Others are convinced that delta-sigma DACs are better (I think you'll find that both our DC-1 and the delta-sigma Gungnir have better specs). Yet others are convinced that non-oversampling DACs make cleaner transients (sometimes they do; incidentally, neither the DC-1 nor the Gungnir multi-bit is a non-oversampling DAC). (I've only ever heard one "well reviewed" non-oversampling DAC; it sounded nice on some things, but overall didn't sound very good at all to me; I didn't keep it... ) I'm not at all suggesting that you wouldn't be happy with the Gungnir multi-bit..... but I don't think you have enough data points to fairly compare it to anything else of equivalent sound quality. Or to assume that any difference you hear is due solely, or even mostly, to a difference between the delta-sigma and multi-bit topologies You're trying to oversimplify a very complicated subject... (And note that I'm not talking about price, because there are $500 DACs out there that sound very good, and $5k ones that sound very bad...... or, at best, no better than the $500 ones.) I really have to jump in here with a general comment.... In technical terms, both multi-bit and delta-sigma DACS have advantages and disadvantages, but most of those only really count at the design level, and there are several other factors that are at least as important. In other words, either a multi-bit DAC or a delta-sigma DAC can sound good or bad - depending on how good the rest of the design is and how well it's implemented. Originally, all DACs were multi-bit, then, as delta-sigma DACs started offering better performance at lower cost, multi-bit DACs dropped out of the market almost entirely. The whole idea that multi-bit DACs are inherently better, but were replaced by inferior delta-sigma DACs because they were so much cheaper, is a great story - but it isn't entirely true. (And saying so is sort of like suggesting that we should all go back to horses "because they're better".) How well a specific DAC is designed and built is going to have a much greater impact on how it sounds than whether it happens to be multi-bit or delta-sigma (and, in point of fact, virtually all modern delta-sigma DACs are multi-bit delta-sigma DACs anyway). I currently own three of Schiit's DACs, and I've heard several more, and all of them offer excellent value for their price point, and sound very good... so I"m sure you wouldn't be unhappy with any model you might purchase... but I wouldn't be expecting a dramatic difference because one or another happens to be multi-bit or delta-sigma (in fact, I wouldn't bet on being able to tell which was which; and, if you can, any differences are going to be very subtle). This has been my hesitation. The only DAC i have heard that reproduces specifically percussion correctly is the DAC in a $7,000 CD player. That CD player uses a Burr-Brown DAC that is a R2R ( multibit?) Dac. A $7k cd player is way out of budget. A $1,300 DAC that woukd give me the real percussion sound coukd be obtainable.
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Post by garbulky on Nov 20, 2015 18:16:01 GMT -5
Regarding the drums and trumpet. Part of it can have to do with things not being "thin" or weak sounding. Namely dynamics. I found that a dedicated standalone preamp really helped with feeling of slam and also microdynamics that helps with the "pop" in music. The XSP-1 does really good in that regard.
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Post by brubacca on Nov 20, 2015 18:41:52 GMT -5
KeithL-- I do honestly get what you are saying. I'm an Engineer by degree and have worked in Engineering sales for more than a couple of years. The real kick in the shorts is that even if I had the exact equipment from that Demo (i have the same Integrated Amp), it may sound differently in my room. In fact, it should sound differently in my room.
Garbulky- in this specific case my Integrated is more than capable of reproducing the realistic sounds, it is the same one I listened to the CD player on.
All his uncertainty makes me want to pause. Hence they thought of the Rogue RP-1, it is expensive, but it is not a stretch to think that it would outperform my Outlaw 970 in two channel on my TV system.
Then I could let 2 channel DAC technology mature even more. Or go more retro).
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Post by garbulky on Nov 20, 2015 19:42:15 GMT -5
Well....it is a conundrum. What holds me back on the Rogue is this. In their own news bulleting they called it an "entry level" tube preamp. While this may still mean it's amazing. I'm not sure I want to spend tons of money on what the seller calls entry level....not that I'm saying it's bad. But I like the fact that the XSP-1 is Emotiva's declared flagship. Or that the Gungnir is only one step away from Schiit's flagship.
Now I know everybody's always hesitant on "trials" but the Gungnir multibit has a 15 day trial on it. And it weighs very little. So you'll be set back say $20 max to send it back.
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,235
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Post by novisnick on Nov 20, 2015 19:43:36 GMT -5
Well....it is a conundrum. What holds me back on the Rogue is this. In their own news bulleting they called it an "entry level" tube preamp. While this may still mean it's amazing. I'm not sure I want to spend tons of money on what the seller calls entry level....not that I'm saying it's bad. But I like the fact that the XSP-1 is Emotiva's declared flagship. Or that the Gungnir is only one step away from Schiit's flagship. Now I know everybody's always hesitant on "trials" but the Gungnir multibit has a 15 day trial on it. And it weighs very little. So you'll be set back say $20 max to send it back. Is there no restocking fee on that item?
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Post by garbulky on Nov 20, 2015 19:53:10 GMT -5
oh yeah there is....
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,235
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Post by novisnick on Nov 20, 2015 19:56:17 GMT -5
Just wanted to have full disclosure for a would be home trial audition.
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Post by brubacca on Nov 20, 2015 20:17:18 GMT -5
5% or about $65 on Gungnir
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Post by brubacca on Nov 20, 2015 20:19:39 GMT -5
Well....it is a conundrum. What holds me back on the Rogue is this. In their own news bulleting they called it an "entry level" tube preamp. While this may still mean it's amazing. I'm not sure I want to spend tons of money on what the seller calls entry level....not that I'm saying it's bad. But I like the fact that the XSP-1 is Emotiva's declared flagship. Or that the Gungnir is only one step away from Schiit's flagship. Now I know everybody's always hesitant on "trials" but the Gungnir multibit has a 15 day trial on it. And it weighs very little. So you'll be set back say $20 max to send it back. The description makes it sound like the front end of the Sphinx Integrated. Wish Emotiva woukd build this. Dan build the USP-2ube
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harri009
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ReferenceAnalog.com
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Post by harri009 on Nov 20, 2015 21:59:05 GMT -5
When I owned the Rogue M180's I very much enjoyed them, I don't think you can go too wrong with Rogue
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