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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 19, 2016 12:40:26 GMT -5
I have a pair of bookshelf speakers that I'd like to use as center channels. My options are:
1. Place them on the equipment rack below the TV, tweeter-to-tweeter OR
2. Place them on stands outside both ends of the equipment rack
Is there an advantage or disadvantage to doing it either of these ways? Both speakers will be fed the monophonic center channel data from the Oppo BDP-105's analog outputs. The "normal" left and right speakers will be on the outsides of the center channel pair either way.
I see "center channel" speakers with tweeters in their centers, flanked by woofers and also in configurations where the tweeters are outboard of the woofers. Will it make any difference?
Thanks - Boom
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Mar 19, 2016 12:45:29 GMT -5
Hi boom, ive owned many large dedicated speakers and the tweeters have all been centered and flanked byp the mids and woofers. I figure they've done all the research that I don't need to do.
Tweeters butted up against each other is my vote. Let me know what you think.
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Mar 19, 2016 16:38:57 GMT -5
The B&W Nautilus HTM2 wasn't symmetrical and a highly regarded center speaker.
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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 19, 2016 21:53:49 GMT -5
The B&W Nautilus HTM2 wasn't symmetrical and a highly regarded center speaker. Um... Actually, it DOES look symmetrical to me. The woofer and tweeter are vertically aligned. The thing off to the side is just a port?
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Mar 19, 2016 22:27:53 GMT -5
The B&W Nautilus HTM2 wasn't symmetrical and a highly regarded center speaker. Um... Actually, it DOES look symmetrical to me. The woofer and tweeter are vertically aligned. The thing off to the side is just a port? Centered tweeter as well.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Mar 19, 2016 22:33:25 GMT -5
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Post by yves on Mar 20, 2016 0:13:13 GMT -5
Neither of both options seems right TBH, but you can still try. Placing vertically oriented bookshelf speakers below the TV lying on their sides tweeter-to-tweeter is not quite the same thing as a single, horizontally oriented MTM center speaker despite there being a close enough resemblance intuitively. Essentially you'd be redesigning speakers by combining two identical speakers into a single new one. Placing them upright with the equipment rack standing between them will create a phantom center effect some way similar to having no center speaker present i.e. routing the center channel to the Left + Right speaker pair, albeit differing significantly from that. Another possibility would be to place one speaker below the TV, upright and slightly tilted upwards, and the other speaker above the TV, upside down and tilted slightly downwards so they both are pointing towards ear height. (IMO certainly it would help if you could then also individually EQ them, i.e., same channel same signal, but sent through different PEQ profiles prior to being individually converted to analog to create an optimized in-room response aka "soundfield management" — an option I would love to see in the XMR-1 — but I digress). Some useful info regarding speaker driver arrangement/orientation can be found in the articles linked below. www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designswww.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/center-channel-speakerwww.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/center-channel-designswww.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/center-channel-designs-1
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 20, 2016 4:37:59 GMT -5
Some time ago I set up a system for a friend where I used the speakers in the panel as a centre. So effectively 2 speakers (with 2 drivers in each), parallel wired using a Denon AVR with 125 WPC (rated, actually about 90 WPC all channels driven). I balanced the volumes using my trusty SPL metre and he used it that way for about a year until he could afford a real centre. The speakers in the panel were plenty good enough for dialogue. It was a 50" panel so the speakers were about 40" apart, but in mono they sound like one speaker located right in the centre of the panel.
Cheers Gary
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Post by smarties on Mar 20, 2016 7:52:03 GMT -5
Not a good idea using two speakers as a center. You'll get phase and lobing issues.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 7:58:46 GMT -5
Not a good idea using two speakers as a center. You'll get phase and lobing issues. Amen! Agree 100%. They don't call him Smarties for nothing. Boom should know better than that. Use a single quality/high power handling (not flea market speakers) speaker set on its side (or vertical if possible) and hopefully it timbre matches the L/R speakers regardless of what you might read in the Myth Of Center Speakers Thread!
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Post by smarties on Mar 20, 2016 8:03:05 GMT -5
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Post by vinylfreak on Mar 20, 2016 8:23:39 GMT -5
My JBL LC-2 Center Channel
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Post by Loop 7 on Mar 20, 2016 11:17:42 GMT -5
I've experimented with numerous center channel speakers and I keep coming back to Paradigm. The company seems to have really nailed human voice reproduction.
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Post by teaman on Mar 20, 2016 11:38:13 GMT -5
I have tried the side by side center channel boom, and it doesn't work out well. Much better sound from a single center channel.
I have had the best luck with the Klipsch KLF-C7, this thing is a beast and blends perfectly with my other Klipsch speakers. I also have a Klipsch Academy and it does a great job, just not as much punch as the KLF. I have also run all three front speakers being Klipsch Heresies and that sounded really good, nice balance.
Tim
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Post by bluemeanies on Mar 20, 2016 12:12:12 GMT -5
Hi boom, ive owned many large dedicated speakers and the tweeters have all been centered and flanked byp the mids and woofers. I figure they've done all the research that I don't need to do. Tweeters butted up against each other is my vote. Let me know what you think. Boom I agree with nick...tweeters side to side center on rack BUT I would not disregard experimenting
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Post by gus4emo on Mar 20, 2016 12:16:50 GMT -5
A month ago I got the HSURESEARCH left, center and right speakers along with the VTF MK2 SUB, the center is awesome, along with rest....
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 20, 2016 14:58:28 GMT -5
Not a good idea using two speakers as a center. You'll get phase and lobing issues. So when we play a mono source through the LF and RF we get phase and lobing issues? Cheers Gary
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Post by Cory Cooper on Mar 20, 2016 17:33:16 GMT -5
The B&W Nautilus HTM2 wasn't symmetrical and a highly regarded center speaker. That's my center channel speaker and I love it. Mine is in Cherry. C
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 18:47:27 GMT -5
Actually the MTM design is flawed. And it's only been done that way to fit under tv's. So it's a compromise. And we have been trained that center speakers should be horizontal. the b and w one isn't mtm so it works with no lobing.
Ideally you want the vertical array.
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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 20, 2016 20:39:59 GMT -5
OK... More data - I can put the twin bookshelf speakers (Infinity somethings) on the equipment stand with their tweeters but a couple of inches apart. That leaves the woofers spaced a couple of feet apart, but isn't that what big center-channel speakers do anyway? If that amount of spacing causes lobeing issues, then EVERY center channel on the market is flawed (per @bmoney's claim). Now keeping in mind that the center is intended pretty much for DIALOGUE only, it seems to me that it wouldn't much matter whether a center MTM or a pair of closely spaced bookshelves was used. But, hey, I could be wrong...
And if closely spaced speakers are OK, then I'm not understanding why a pair of speakers (run in mono) three or four feet apart wouldn't be equally OK. Yes, it would provide only a "phantom" center image, but being no wider than the width of the couch (where we get friendly to watch movies), I'm not seeing where any loss would occur. Now the "phantom center image" from the main speakers, which are 12 or more feet apart, is fine for two or so centrally located viewers, but anyone not on the couch pretty much misses out on the dialogue.
I'm thinking that with the two "centers" being no wider than the couch, and with the partial reinforcement of the right and left "effects" channels, that the dialogue would be pretty clear. Since I'd like to have more equipment stand real-estate for the standard stuff (plus the occasional visiting component), putting the "center" speakers on stands is an attractive option, from a "make it fit" standpoint.
Now this speaks naught to the acoustical effectiveness of the rig. I may just have to try it & see. There are theoretical advantages and disadvantages, but pretty is as pretty does. Further, having the little Emotiva Fusion amp on the rack allows me to dynamically adjust the center volume via the remote - an option not currently available with the Fusion tucked behind the speakers on the rack with no clear path for the IR remote.
And as to matching, I stand by my comments on the "The Myth of the Center Speaker" thread. Timbre matching is where you find it - and not necessarily only from the same manufacturer. The little Infinities are slightly brighter than my main Axioms, but a felt in front of the tweeters should make them blend right in (until I find something better at the next yard sale)! LOL
Boom
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