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Post by DavidR on Mar 20, 2016 21:19:42 GMT -5
I kind of like the B&W CM Centre 2
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 21:50:04 GMT -5
OK... More data - I can put the twin bookshelf speakers (Infinity somethings) on the equipment stand with their tweeters but a couple of inches apart. That leaves the woofers spaced a couple of feet apart, but isn't that what big center-channel speakers do anyway? If that amount of spacing causes lobeing issues, then EVERY center channel on the market is flawed (per @bmoney's claim). Now keeping in mind that the center is intended pretty much for DIALOGUE only, it seems to me that it wouldn't much matter whether a center MTM or a pair of closely spaced bookshelves was used. But, hey, I could be wrong... And if closely spaced speakers are OK, then I'm not understanding why a pair of speakers (run in mono) three or four feet apart wouldn't be equally OK. Yes, it would provide only a "phantom" center image, but being no wider than the width of the couch (where we get friendly to watch movies), I'm not seeing where any loss would occur. Now the "phantom center image" from the main speakers, which are 12 or more feet apart, is fine for two or so centrally located viewers, but anyone not on the couch pretty much misses out on the dialogue. I'm thinking that with the two "centers" being no wider than the couch, and with the partial reinforcement of the right and left "effects" channels, that the dialogue would be pretty clear. Since I'd like to have more equipment stand real-estate for the standard stuff (plus the occasional visiting component), putting the "center" speakers on stands is an attractive option, from a "make it fit" standpoint. Now this speaks naught to the acoustical effectiveness of the rig. I may just have to try it & see. There are theoretical advantages and disadvantages, but pretty is as pretty does. Further, having the little Emotiva Fusion amp on the rack allows me to dynamically adjust the center volume via the remote - an option not currently available with the Fusion tucked behind the speakers on the rack with no clear path for the IR remote. And as to matching, I stand by my comments on the "The Myth of the Center Speaker" thread. Timbre matching is where you find it - and not necessarily only from the same manufacturer. The little Infinities are slightly brighter than my main Axioms, but a felt in front of the tweeters should make them blend right in (until I find something better at the next yard sale)! LOL Boom I should clarify if the mtm are on the same plane then yes it's very flawed. If the tweeter is on a slightly higher plane it's better yet. But the ideal is a vertical setup So yes. Most horizontal center speakers are flawed. Some More than others.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 21:53:44 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 23:08:58 GMT -5
Now keeping in mind that the center is intended pretty much for DIALOGUE only, ........................................................................................ I disagree with Boom and many others who continue to say that the center channel is for primarily dialogue only (they also usually think the surrounds are for rear gun shots and door slams). It is not a PA speaker and is part of what should be a perfectly timbre matched spread out front soundstage. Many movies have much more than just dialogue thru the center channel speaker. Many musical scores, background sounds, special effects, choral vocals are spread thru and across the front soundstage including the center channel. The same smooth and continuous soundstage is present in many multi-channel music reproductions in our system including 2 channel sources redirected to 5 or more channels with Dolby DSP's. The matched smooth and homogenous sound canvas across the front is clearly obvious when ones replaces the mis-matched center with a properly matched one.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 23:29:18 GMT -5
And as to matching, I stand by my comments on the "The Myth of the Center Speaker" thread. Timbre matching is where you find it - and not necessarily only from the same manufacturer. The little Infinities are slightly brighter than my main Axioms, but a felt in front of the tweeters should make them blend right in (until I find something better at the next yard sale)! LOL Boom Nonsense! I and many other have a center speaker that has the same exact drivers and electronics as the left and right speakers. Only due to practical matters are the center speakers set over on their side. They are simply the best match you will find for your left and right speaker from the same brand and speaker series. That is a huge no-brainer! So you are going to buy or borrow center speakers that are a good match that you find at yard sales? You might even try to EQ them to match the left and right. Good grief. You seem to have fun at yard sales and flea markets and that is great that you obviously enjoy this part of the hobby. You are considering using two speakers as a center speaker. How about using two speakers as your L & R speakers also. Advent did it once (they had the smartest marketing section in the industry and sold lots of extra speakers). Maybe you might consider buying a center channel speaker from Axiom that is designed to match your mains. The center might even use one or more of the same drivers (what a bizarre idea). For someone who claims to hear minute differences in DAC's I'm surprised you seem to hear or see no value in having the LCR speakers matched.
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Post by Kent on Mar 20, 2016 23:47:32 GMT -5
Hello Boom, I think it would be best to put the speakers together to mimic a centre channel or use one vertically on a stand. As far as tweeters together or opposed I'd A/B it and hear for yourself. I used one of my JM Lab bookshelf speakers (Chorus 705) as a centre upright on a stand and it worked fine. Although if I were you I'd aim for one of these to match those M-100's
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Post by yves on Mar 21, 2016 1:53:05 GMT -5
And as to matching, I stand by my comments on the "The Myth of the Center Speaker" thread. Timbre matching is where you find it - and not necessarily only from the same manufacturer. The little Infinities are slightly brighter than my main Axioms, but a felt in front of the tweeters should make them blend right in (until I find something better at the next yard sale)! LOL Boom Nonsense! I and many other have a center speaker that has the same exact drivers and electronics as the left and right speakers. Only due to practical matters are the center speakers set over on their side. They are simply the best match you will find for your left and right speaker from the same brand and speaker series. That is a huge no-brainer! So you are going to buy or borrow center speakers that are a good match that you find at yard sales? You might even try to EQ them to match the left and right. Good grief. You seem to have fun at yard sales and flea markets and that is great that you obviously enjoy this part of the hobby. You are considering using two speakers as a center speaker. How about using two speakers as your L & R speakers also. Advent did it once (they had the smartest marketing section in the industry and sold lots of extra speakers). Maybe you might consider buying a center channel speaker from Axiom that is designed to match your mains. The center might even use one or more of the same drivers (what a bizarre idea). For someone who claims to hear minute differences in DAC's I'm surprised you seem to hear or see no value in having the LCR speakers matched. Even if I decide to get an acoustically transparent projection screen and then place a center speaker behind it that not just timbre matches my stereo pair of speakers, but is IDENTICAL to them (as in, the EXACT SAME), the acoustic interaction that goes on between the stereo pair and the room is still going to be completely different than the acoustic interaction that goes on between the center speaker and the room. So unless you want to live in an anechoic chamber, whether you like it or not, nonsense does not exist.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2016 3:46:55 GMT -5
Nonsense! I and many other have a center speaker that has the same exact drivers and electronics as the left and right speakers. Only due to practical matters are the center speakers set over on their side. They are simply the best match you will find for your left and right speaker from the same brand and speaker series. That is a huge no-brainer! So you are going to buy or borrow center speakers that are a good match that you find at yard sales? You might even try to EQ them to match the left and right. Good grief. You seem to have fun at yard sales and flea markets and that is great that you obviously enjoy this part of the hobby. You are considering using two speakers as a center speaker. How about using two speakers as your L & R speakers also. Advent did it once (they had the smartest marketing section in the industry and sold lots of extra speakers). Maybe you might consider buying a center channel speaker from Axiom that is designed to match your mains. The center might even use one or more of the same drivers (what a bizarre idea). For someone who claims to hear minute differences in DAC's I'm surprised you seem to hear or see no value in having the LCR speakers matched. Even if I decide to get an acoustically transparent projection screen and then place a center speaker behind it that not just timbre matches my stereo pair of speakers, but is IDENTICAL to them (as in, the EXACT SAME), the acoustic interaction that goes on between the stereo pair and the room is still going to be completely different than the acoustic interaction that goes on between the center speaker and the room. So unless you want to live in an anechoic chamber, whether you like it or not, nonsense does not exist. Extending your logic then if you like many folks have a stereo pair only for music and the left speaker is significantly closer to the side wall than the right speaker then there is no reason to get a matched stereo pair of speakers, due to being completely different than the acoustic interaction of the other speaker in the pair (unless the room was perfectly equal in relation to the placement of the speakers)? Perhaps above you are talking about the center being behind the screen while the L&R are front of the screen? That is not the best idea but I would have the front of the center as close to touching the screen as possible and the rear of the L&R as close to the screen as possible. As you know in a normal size room it is best to have the center speaker slightly behind the L&R so they are all equal distance. That of course varies from room to room. Your stating "completely different" is a big exaggeration IMO. If possible in your example above, the very best situation would be to have the exact same speaker in the exact same orientation. We actually had a member here several years ago (don't remember if he is still active) who did just that. He used three Emotiva ERM-6.3's, all were behind the screen all in the vertical orientation. My recollection was he reported the sound was excellent. Yes, if the center was the same distance from the wall behind and from the ceiling above but was farther from the side walls than the left and right speakers then there would perhaps be a very slight difference in sound. However, that would seem to be as perfect as one could possibly get. You seem to be suggesting that since the center speaker will never be the same distance to the side walls as the L&R then forget about getting a matched center speaker (to me that is nonsense). Having a mismatched center as you seem to suggest would always make the situation worse. Living in an anechoic chamber would be ideal but of course not possible. However, we do make the room acoustics as perfect as possible in our room. Dismissing having a timbre matched center speaker due to room issues is no excuse for not having the best matched center speaker possible.
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Post by smarties on Mar 21, 2016 3:57:37 GMT -5
" Dismissing having a timbre matched center speaker due to room issues is no excuse for not having the best matched center speaker possible. "
I think having a [/bold] good sounding[/bold] center speaker is important. More important than a matching one.
When I had KEF Q series, I have the matching Kef Q center. It was awful, even though it was matching. Switched to Kef Reference center, not matching to the Q L/R but much much better.
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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 21, 2016 4:09:44 GMT -5
What I'm saying is that I've found a equal (and often better) timbral match from RANDOM speakers rather than the ones from the same company as the R/L set. I've owned BOTH the Axiom VP-160 and the VP-100 before. The 100 was a better match than the more expensive 160. But a yard sale JBL sounded better (and better matched) than both put together. BUYING A CENTER FROM THE SAME MANUFACTURER IS NOT A GUARANTEE OF AN ACOUSTIC MATCH!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2016 6:36:50 GMT -5
Chuckienut is my hero!!!
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Post by fbczar on Mar 21, 2016 7:54:47 GMT -5
And as to matching, I stand by my comments on the "The Myth of the Center Speaker" thread. Timbre matching is where you find it - and not necessarily only from the same manufacturer. The little Infinities are slightly brighter than my main Axioms, but a felt in front of the tweeters should make them blend right in (until I find something better at the next yard sale)! LOL Boom Nonsense! I and many other have a center speaker that has the same exact drivers and electronics as the left and right speakers. Only due to practical matters are the center speakers set over on their side. They are simply the best match you will find for your left and right speaker from the same brand and speaker series. That is a huge no-brainer! So you are going to buy or borrow center speakers that are a good match that you find at yard sales? You might even try to EQ them to match the left and right. Good grief. You seem to have fun at yard sales and flea markets and that is great that you obviously enjoy this part of the hobby. You are considering using two speakers as a center speaker. How about using two speakers as your L & R speakers also. Advent did it once (they had the smartest marketing section in the industry and sold lots of extra speakers). Maybe you might consider buying a center channel speaker from Axiom that is designed to match your mains. The center might even use one or more of the same drivers (what a bizarre idea). For someone who claims to hear minute differences in DAC's I'm surprised you seem to hear or see no value in having the LCR speakers matched. I'm curious. Have you actually heard a stacked Advent setup? If so, in what way was the stacked setup inferior to a pair of Advent speakers? You have obviously compared the use of two identical, vertically oriented speakers against a single horizontally oriented center channel speaker, all from the same manufacturer, in a home theater system. In what way(s) would a vertical pair of the same speakers be inherently inferior to one horizontally oriented center channel speaker if all the speakers compared are from the same manufacturer?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2016 8:07:05 GMT -5
" Dismissing having a timbre matched center speaker due to room issues is no excuse for not having the best matched center speaker possible. " I think having a [/bold] good sounding[/bold] center speaker is important. More important than a matching one. When I had KEF Q series, I have the matching Kef Q center. It was awful, even though it was matching. Switched to Kef Reference center, not matching to the Q L/R but much much better. One should never be able to distinguish the sound quality of the center from the left and right, except if you have large towers they might go lower if you don't have them set as small. The idea of the center speaker is to sound as close to the same as possible and blend in perfectly with the left and right. All three LCR should be "good sounding" and a very close match at the same time. Having a center channel speaker of higher sound quality than than the L&R is in fact a mismatch. You probably should have had the KEF Ref as L&R. Curious, what exact model of Q did you have and what model center, 200 or 600?
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Post by smarties on Mar 21, 2016 8:10:20 GMT -5
Q75/Q95 Ref 2.2/200 (model the 1990's)
It was blindlily obvious of the poor SQ of the Q95C. All speakers set to small.
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Post by vneal on Mar 21, 2016 8:17:48 GMT -5
Experiment--go with the best sound to you
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Post by vneal on Mar 21, 2016 8:21:11 GMT -5
I kind of like the B&W CM Centre 2 I use this model and am happy
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Post by mountain on Mar 21, 2016 8:31:28 GMT -5
Nonsense! I and many other have a center speaker that has the same exact drivers and electronics as the left and right speakers. Only due to practical matters are the center speakers set over on their side. They are simply the best match you will find for your left and right speaker from the same brand and speaker series. That is a huge no-brainer! So you are going to buy or borrow center speakers that are a good match that you find at yard sales? You might even try to EQ them to match the left and right. Good grief. You seem to have fun at yard sales and flea markets and that is great that you obviously enjoy this part of the hobby. You are considering using two speakers as a center speaker. How about using two speakers as your L & R speakers also. Advent did it once (they had the smartest marketing section in the industry and sold lots of extra speakers). Maybe you might consider buying a center channel speaker from Axiom that is designed to match your mains. The center might even use one or more of the same drivers (what a bizarre idea). For someone who claims to hear minute differences in DAC's I'm surprised you seem to hear or see no value in having the LCR speakers matched. I'm curious. Have you actually heard a stacked Advent setup? If so, in what way was the stacked setup inferior to a pair of Advent speakers? You have obviously compared the use of two identical, vertically oriented speakers against a single horizontally oriented center channel speaker, all from the same manufacturer, in a home theater system. In what way(s) would a vertical pair of the same speakers be inherently inferior to one horizontally oriented center channel speaker if all the speakers compared are from the same manufacturer? I had the original advent loudspeakers stacked, wired parralel for many years. (Now a friend of mine has them. I had the woofers reconed while I still had them.) I placed them on 3 to 4 inch speaker stands. They were excellent for the money. I, at one point, compared them side by side with the 6 foot magnapans (I do not remember the model number of these 70's version) at a local hi fi retailer being pushed by a Mitsubishi 150 watt dual monoblock amp @8 ohms, 200 watt @ 4 ohms. I listened side by side for quite awhile, even after the store closed. I brought home the powe amp! Maybe a marketing stratagy, but they were worth every penny to me.
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Post by HTfanHungary on Mar 21, 2016 8:59:39 GMT -5
I kind of like the B&W CM Centre 2 I use this model and am happy I have this one: B&W HTM61 s2. Yummie..., I love it! )
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2016 9:15:31 GMT -5
Nonsense! I and many other have a center speaker that has the same exact drivers and electronics as the left and right speakers. Only due to practical matters are the center speakers set over on their side. They are simply the best match you will find for your left and right speaker from the same brand and speaker series. That is a huge no-brainer! So you are going to buy or borrow center speakers that are a good match that you find at yard sales? You might even try to EQ them to match the left and right. Good grief. You seem to have fun at yard sales and flea markets and that is great that you obviously enjoy this part of the hobby. You are considering using two speakers as a center speaker. How about using two speakers as your L & R speakers also. Advent did it once (they had the smartest marketing section in the industry and sold lots of extra speakers). Maybe you might consider buying a center channel speaker from Axiom that is designed to match your mains. The center might even use one or more of the same drivers (what a bizarre idea). For someone who claims to hear minute differences in DAC's I'm surprised you seem to hear or see no value in having the LCR speakers matched. I'm curious. Have you actually heard a stacked Advent setup? If so, in what way was the stacked setup inferior to a pair of Advent speakers? You have obviously compared the use of two identical, vertically oriented speakers against a single horizontally oriented center channel speaker, all from the same manufacturer, in a home theater system. In what way(s) would a vertical pair of the same speakers be inherently inferior to one horizontally oriented center channel speaker if all the speakers compared are from the same manufacturer? My comment about the stacked Advents was sort of old time humor. It was me making a crack about using two center channel speakers. We and many other forums have gone round and round about double center speakers a number of times. From all I have read and heard the idea of two center speakers by most experts is a no no. It usually arrives from folks who do not use a high quality, high power handling center that is a match for their L&R. Some complain about low level dialog but that is almost always the fault of the source or having the pre-pro mis-set. I was going to ask him do you use two L&R speakers, (the answer is of course no), but then I remembered the double Advents and made that comment from my recollections years ago. The Grey is a good example of a movie with a very poorly produced center channel dialog (too low ..... it is not your center speaker or your pre-pro). I'm over 70 and of course heard the double Advents but only at a dealers. One close college friend bought some single Advents from Mag Hi-Fi and they sounded way bass shy. I checked the wiring and of course he had them out of phase. After I fixed that they sounded OK but were not adequate for his huge living area and his love of rock music. I thought the stacked Advents sounded quite good but two sets of stacked speakers wasn't much in the WAF. I had another friend who was in a family run high end store and he laughed about the double Advents saying that could be done with any similar speaker. Advent seemed to have a lot of issues with blown tweeters and fuses like some of the AR's. For my college friend who loved to play loud music I thought they were over priced as doubles for him and later talked him into getting some used Klispch's and he was so happy. My dealer friend said the joke in the industry was some Advent guy came up with the idea of stacked Advents which did have some merit but mainly to sell more speakers. Man, it sure worked well and they sold a hell of a lot of double Advents whether there was any truth to it or not. I was in marketing for years in a different industry and I always liked that idea/sales story. You said: You have obviously compared the use of two identical, vertically oriented speakers against a single horizontally oriented center channel speaker, all from the same manufacturer, in a home theater system. In what way(s) would a vertical pair of the same speakers be inherently inferior to one horizontally oriented center channel speaker if all the speakers compared are from the same manufacturer? I'm just a little confused here but I guess you are saying again why not the two center speakers in a vertical orientation. Sorry, if I didn't follow exactly. The best center speaker as I have mentioned in various posts is a single center in the vertical orientation or horizontal orientation. Either that would be the same exact speaker up-right or on its side (and properly designed like Emo's center speakers with the offset tweeter) whichever was most practical. Obviously most time the center is placed on its side for space/practical reasons. There are a number of reasons why not the two center speakers which I don't know if I can clearly explain here but it has roughly to do with phase/lobing issues (?) and also the center channel track is one track only and there is no reason for a second speaker except if the speaker is too cheap, etc and the answer then is to use a better center speaker that matches the L&R. The only time this comes up is when the member is unhappy with his center. To me I'm guessing that the Boom doesn't want to spend the bucks to buy a quality Axiom center to match his M100's. If Axiom's center is no good then switch to a brand that has properly matching LCR's. Some, even brands say that the center speaker is the most important speaker in the movie system because of dialog. I watch many movies that have very little dialog throughout large portions of the dialog. I say nonsense baloney, that all 5 or more are important and especially the LCR. We only need one left, one right, one center, and one each surround speaker for 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, etc and sometimes two or more subs. Get into Atmos at your own risk.
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 21, 2016 9:23:06 GMT -5
What I'm saying is that I've found a equal (and often better) timbral match from RANDOM speakers rather than the ones from the same company as the R/L set. I've owned BOTH the Axiom VP-160 and the VP-100 before. The 100 was a better match than the more expensive 160. But a yard sale JBL sounded better (and better matched) than both put together. BUYING A CENTER FROM THE SAME MANUFACTURER IS NOT A GUARANTEE OF AN ACOUSTIC MATCH! I used to have the Emo 6.2's for L/R and a 6.3 center and the timbre of the center did not match the mains. To my ears the 6.3 sounded quite a bit different than the 6.2's so eventually I replaced the 6.3 with another 6.2. And as I have been known to do on rare occasion, I ended up replacing all the speakers with something else. Now I am using three Ascend Sierra 2's across the front, all vertically positioned and it sounds great. My feeling is the center does not necessarily have to be the same model as the sides or even the same brand as the sides and while ideally there should be a timbre match, if it sounds good to you then that's what counts. The main thing is to not overthink or try and be elaborate when simple is just as good or better. I think Yves made a good point about how speakers will sound different depending on their position and room acoustics, so even if you have identical speakers across the front that doesn't mean they will sound identical. On the other hand, I agree with Chuckie - if that's the case then why would you need to have the same model speaker on the left and right? If they're going to sound different then what's the point of making them identical. You might as well go out and buy different speakers that match the room acoustics where they will be positioned, same as if your feet aren't both the same size then why buy a matched pair of shoes. But like I said above, I think the main problem is we overthink what ought to be kept simple. The elaborate solution, with all of the time and expense invested, turns out to be no better or even not as good as the simple one.
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