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Post by JKCashin on Mar 22, 2016 22:35:18 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 22:42:54 GMT -5
When I was running my Polk a9's I still set them to small but lowered the crossover to 40hz . But I was also using some fairly inadequate subwoofers(Polk psw505) .
In my opinion set your crossovers to whatever floats your boat provided the mains can handle it.
Most of the time when you set your mains full range the subwoofers sound anemic..
So unless your running no subs I always set to small .
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Post by JKCashin on Mar 22, 2016 22:59:32 GMT -5
When I was running my Polk a9's I still set them to small but lowered the crossover to 40hz . But I was also using some fairly inadequate subwoofers(Polk psw505) . In my opinion set your crossovers to whatever floats your boat provided the mains can handle it. Most of the time when you set your mains full range the subwoofers sound anemic.. So unless your running no subs I always set to small . Oddly enough, it's the Polk RTi-A9s that I have... I have done exactly as you suggested based on my reading. Here's a few more articles that favour this setup: www.ecoustics.com/articles/set-speakers-small-receiver-setup/www.audyssey.com/blog/small-vs-large |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2016 1:20:42 GMT -5
Yes, set all speakers to small. ..........Providing you have done a good job choosing a sub that compliments the main speakers. Too many folks IMO skimp on the sub and buy it almost as an afterthought, like oh I need a sub to enhance the lower bass that I have in my towers and also for special effects. Special effects are one reason the big powerful low extending subs are necessary. I would reccomend the small setting for all multi-channel uses whether for movies music or both and either ported or sealed subs. Some people prefer two or more subs but it is not always needed, especially like me when there is only one main sweat spot/seat. The real issue is we (middle age and up) all grew up beginning without subs. Those of us who wanted better low bass bought larger and larger towers. Whether we had bookshelves or floor-standing towers they were (in conventional designs) either 2 way or 3 way speakers (occasional 4 ways). Most of us understood that in a 3-way the tweeter covered the frequencies down to the mid range driver and the mid covered down to the woofer each time using the crossover for the change over, pretty simple concept. As more folks decided they wanted to reproduce the big pipe organ frequencies, synthesized bass went lower and very low bass in movie soundtracks was more and more common, we realized we needed speakers that instead of the previous response at -3dB's down to about 35-50Hz, we would now need to go much lower as in below 30Hz and even down to about 15-20Hz. Unfortunately, it was most practical and effective to put this new lowest bass driver (that would crossover at about 80Hz) in a separate enclosure with its own power amp. Yes, there are some towers that have subs built in but this design has significant issues that most folks don't desire. So the separate powered subwoofer is now the standard. It simply now makes the common 3-way speaker into a 4 way speaker with the addition of the separate sub (and crossover usually in the pre-pro). Yes, there are issues in making the combination of a tower/bookshelf speaker match correctly and smoothly with the sub. This part of this modern 4-way speaker takes some research and careful settings to make the extension of the main speaker down thru the sub of excellent sound quality. This explains in simple terms to me why the main and the sub should be considered as separate parts of the frequency response divided by the crossover in the main and the crossover for the sub that is usually now part of the bass management of the surround sound pre-pro. As most of us know the term "small" is a misnomer and has nothing to do with the size of the speaker (although some companies incorrectly explain this in their owners manual). It actually means that we are re-directing the lowest bass from the sound track below the 80Hz (for example) from the mains and combining it with the LFE special effects sounds and sending this combined signal to the sub. "Large or Full Range" means that the mains will play down to the low end of their response. In this case (large) we would have both the main speaker and the sub reproducing the sounds below about 80Hz. Those who seem to prefer "large" IMO like the boomy, less defined and overly loud bass. (Many times IMO it is that they have skimped on the sub. One needs to have sub that is of comparable high quality to the mains. To correctly reproduce the LFE signal the sub(s) also need to play up to 115dB's (10dB louder than the main track). These of course are guidelines/ideals to shoot for. However, I have seen way too many average folks spend say $1500-$2500 on their 5 or 7 speakers and then add a mediocre sub for $250-$400. www.soundandvision.com/content/dr-poh-hsu-founder-hsu-research#zHf28mUQuQUVdHMH.97PS: Too many set the crossover to the sub too low. Using the -3dB point of the mains is usually too low, especially for the L&R. Most brands exaggerate the low end of their speakers. S&V tested the RTi-A9's –3dB point at 49 Hz. Polk shows -3dB's at 30Hz which might be possible in some rooms. A good rough guideline is to set the crossover at about 20Hz or slightly more above the -3dBpoint. For the RTi-A9's this would be about 70Hz. You don't mention what sub you have? It needs to be very good and would be stronger from 70Hz and lower than the RTi-A9. Don't forget to bypass/turn off the crossover on the sub.
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Post by geebo on Mar 23, 2016 6:55:38 GMT -5
^ What he said.
I always set mine to small with a sub. I like to keep my crossover at 70 for the fronts. I had some RTi-A7s and 80 worked best for them. I don't care for the enhanced bass option.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2016 7:07:22 GMT -5
not only will the sub do the dirty work down low...but your mains will sound MUCH better since they will not be trying to reproduce the low stuff..
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Post by bradford on Mar 23, 2016 8:19:28 GMT -5
This is clearly the conventional wisdom, but it may change with Dirac Unison that uses as many full range speakers as available to actively treat the room.
It will also be interesting to see the impact of higher channel count immersive mixes with full range objects. CW notes that lower bass in non directional, but a unified wave front (at least down to 60hz) may add to the impact of panned objects. We will see.
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Post by pedrocols on Mar 23, 2016 8:25:49 GMT -5
Don't the experts and the poeple who invented this multichannnel scam advice you to set speakers to small?
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Post by bradford on Mar 23, 2016 9:49:18 GMT -5
Don't the experts and the poeple who invented this multichannnel scam advice you to set speakers to small? Yes they do, but Dirac Unison has not been released to HT yet. You also have to wonder if it were so cut and dry why mix all the channels and objects in full range instead of crossing them over to the LFE at 80HZ. CW tries to optimize bass and overall frequency response for the broader seating area. There is an interesting alternative viewpoint that was well articulated in the Jan WSR article "Top 15 HT design mistakes". The discussion is under 3) REQ and 15) Sub placement. CW would say REQ for the broader listening area and place subs for the most uniform bass response across the room (usually 4 subs at the wall midpoints or 4 corners). The counter viewpoint is optimize for the MLP and he claims it and the seats adjacent to it will get better sound than the averaged approach (which is sub-optimized to get broader coverage). He also advocates 2 subs (or in larger rooms possibly more) all in the front to create a "One Voice" unified wave front from the front (where 80% of the sound is emanating). Interesting he also implicitly advocates surrounds that go below 80HZ, although he is silent on where they should crossover if at all. I'm not saying the WSR viewpoint is correct for everyone, but it may merit experimentation for those who watch most of their movies alone or with a spouse. Dirac Unision on the other-hand may well change the rules for anyone who uses it. |
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Post by vneal on Mar 23, 2016 10:00:10 GMT -5
In my opinion start by setting your main speakers to small with 80HZ crossover. From there experiment if you like with the crossover and or small or big setting
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Post by Jim on Mar 23, 2016 10:06:17 GMT -5
Don't the experts and the poeple who invented this multichannnel scam advice you to set speakers to small? "multichannel scam" ....lol.... |
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Post by pedrocols on Mar 23, 2016 10:30:35 GMT -5
Two Channel Rules!!! ☺
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2016 11:03:36 GMT -5
^^^^^ Spam!!!!!!
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Post by bradford on Mar 23, 2016 11:19:58 GMT -5
Don't the experts and the poeple who invented this multichannnel scam advice you to set speakers to small? Yes they do, but Dirac Unison has not been released to HT yet. You also have to wonder if it were so cut and dry why mix all the channels and objects in full range instead of crossing them over to the LFE at 80HZ. CW tries to optimize bass and overall frequency response for the broader seating area. There is an interesting alternative viewpoint that was well articulated in the Jan WSR article "Top 15 HT design mistakes". The discussion is under 3) REQ and 15) Sub placement. CW would say REQ for the broader listening area and place subs for the most uniform bass response across the room (usually 4 subs at the wall midpoints or 4 corners). The counter viewpoint is optimize for the MLP and he claims it and the seats adjacent to it will get better sound than the averaged approach (which is sub-optimized to get broader coverage). He also advocates 2 subs (or in larger rooms possibly more) all in the front to create a "One Voice" unified wave front from the front (where 80% of the sound is emanating). Interesting he also implicitly advocates surrounds that go below 80HZ, although he is silent on where they should crossover if at all. I'm not saying the WSR viewpoint is correct for everyone, but it may merit experimentation for those who watch most of their movies alone or with a spouse. Dirac Unision on the other-hand may well change the rules for anyone who uses it. Here is a diagram from the article that better describes the point. Attachments:
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Post by Jim on Mar 23, 2016 12:49:56 GMT -5
Sure it does....  |
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Post by goozoo on Mar 23, 2016 14:05:20 GMT -5
Each speaker manufacturer has a distinct sound and sounds best at certain parameters. Speaking strictly of HT, while you can run your speakers in full range (like I did for a long time), today's movies have a lot of effects and frequencies that three or even four way speakers cannot extend down to without significant distortion. This is why subs are utilized in all commercial theaters and in most HT setups. That said, different speakers sound best at different crossovers, which can only be measured with frequency sweeps and is greatly influenced by the physical dimensions of your room. Generally speaking, the lower the crossover point (or none at all), the more open the sound stage becomes; at the expense of less impact-full bass response when using a sub. What is also interesting to note is that the reason you bought those speakers in the first place was due to the way they sounded at full range. This is why so much attention has to be paid to bass response and room acoustics when integrating a subwoofer. There are even those who only spend time to EQ the sub and nothing else. Take the time to learn about some of the particulars of sound and sound treatment; soon you will decide for yourself what works best for you.
On a side note, I still use full range settings when listening to 2 ch. audio, and then a crossover when switching to 2.1, etc.
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Post by JKCashin on Mar 23, 2016 19:31:27 GMT -5
Wow, some awesome responses.... thanks everyone. I have set my speakers to small, as seems to be the consensus. I am playing with the crossover frequency to see how I feel about this setup.
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Post by selkec on Mar 23, 2016 19:36:54 GMT -5
What does setting to small vs large do?
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Post by JKCashin on Mar 23, 2016 19:54:24 GMT -5
PS: Too many set the crossover to the sub too low. Using the -3dB point of the mains is usually too low, especially for the L&R. Most brands exaggerate the low end of their speakers. S&V tested the RTi-A9's –3dB point at 49 Hz. Polk shows -3dB's at 30Hz which might be possible in some rooms. A good rough guideline is to set the crossover at about 20Hz or slightly more above the -3dBpoint. For the RTi-A9's this would be about 70Hz. You don't mention what sub you have? It needs to be very good and would be stronger from 70Hz and lower than the RTi-A9. Don't forget to bypass/turn off the crossover on the sub. Thanks Chuckienut... I actually don't know what my sub is... it's a Paradigm, but it's a prototype, with no model number. I can't find it anywhere on the 'net. I will take some pictures of the back to see if we can determine what it is, but it's similar to the Paradigm PS-1000, except it has only 2 ports, and absolutely no visible drivers! Not even a downward facing one. It's bizarre. Here's a picture of the back:  I did find one like it on CanuckAudioMart www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/648982128-used_paradigm_psseries_powered_subwoofer/ which looks the same, two ports, one on the top and one in the middle, but no lower port. |
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Post by JKCashin on Mar 23, 2016 19:56:24 GMT -5
What does setting to small vs large do? The links above explain, but basically any speakers that are set to "small" will have the bass below the crossover frequency diverted to the subwoofer output. Any speaker set to "large" will get a full range signal. |
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