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Post by repeetavx on May 28, 2016 1:32:43 GMT -5
Hey! These amps aren't "made" in China. The back plate reads: Precision Crafted in China
The warranty thing doesn't really bother me, I just found it curious.
I'll tell ya what does bother me (sniff, sniff). It's that my (sniff, sniff) UPA-1, (sniff, sniff) IS GOING TO HAVE DIRT RUBBED IN ITS FACE! Waaaaaaaaaaaaa...
Actually it's going to be a while before I'm ready to replace my six Gen. 1 amps. But I consider myself a member of the Emotiva family. I want Emotiva to do well and I'm really looking forward to hearing glowing reports on the sound of these new products.
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Post by sycraft on May 28, 2016 2:36:02 GMT -5
So what are the differences? Components and design details. Remember that just because something is overall the same doesn't mean the details are the same. If you looked at the actual circuit topology, all AB amps are going to be somewhat similar since they all do the same thing. The fact that these are really similar makes sense. I would imagine Emotiva is sourcing them from the same ODM, I mean if you are happy with a company's manufacturing you usually keep using them. The basic overall design may be something they got from the ODM as well, manufacturing companies don't always do everything custom, you often start with base designs they offer. Companies often don't design things from scratch, they source basic designs from various places. They then modify them to meet their needs. Also they'll be similar because Emotiva is ultimately designing them. They know what they like and what has worked for them, so they'll stick with it. So it shouldn't be a surprise that products end up looking the same. When you have something that works, you stick with it and improve it. An example you can see that in is computer power supplies. Sea Sonic made a highly successful device in their X-Series PSUs. High end 80 Plus Gold PSU that they sell under their own name, and source various versions of for many other OEMs. They then wanted a higher end part for the new 80 Plus Platinum standard. So they took the X-Series and just improved it. Minor changes to the design, better quality components and the Platinum series was born. Inside they look damn near identical. Why reinvent the wheel when the round one rolls so well?
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Post by peacock on May 28, 2016 5:09:01 GMT -5
warranty barely matters to international costumers, since they have stopped shipping replacement boards. if i were to ship it back (return+return) it would cost me more than half of what i paid for the unit. even if its dead on arrival i may need to pay out of my own pocket. so reliability is much more important than anything else.
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Post by Dan Laufman on May 28, 2016 7:05:35 GMT -5
So what are the differences? Components and design details. Remember that just because something is overall the same doesn't mean the details are the same. If you looked at the actual circuit topology, all AB amps are going to be somewhat similar since they all do the same thing. The fact that these are really similar makes sense. I would imagine Emotiva is sourcing them from the same ODM, I mean if you are happy with a company's manufacturing you usually keep using them. The basic overall design may be something they got from the ODM as well, manufacturing companies don't always do everything custom, you often start with base designs they offer. Companies often don't design things from scratch, they source basic designs from various places. They then modify them to meet their needs. Also they'll be similar because Emotiva is ultimately designing them. They know what they like and what has worked for them, so they'll stick with it. So it shouldn't be a surprise that products end up looking the same. When you have something that works, you stick with it and improve it. An example you can see that in is computer power supplies. Sea Sonic made a highly successful device in their X-Series PSUs. High end 80 Plus Gold PSU that they sell under their own name, and source various versions of for many other OEMs. They then wanted a higher end part for the new 80 Plus Platinum standard. So they took the X-Series and just improved it. Minor changes to the design, better quality components and the Platinum series was born. Inside they look damn near identical. Why reinvent the wheel when the round one rolls so well? Another fully formed adult analysis! Thank you. There was nothing wrong with the the basic Ultra mechanical design. We liked it. We knew we could make big improvements in the power amplifier and front end circuitry, so the new line was fully updated. Also, we wanted to tie the cosmetics more strongly to the main X series for marketing and brand reasons. What wasn't broke, we left alone. The power amplifier design is all new and is very similar to the gen 2 architecture. The board level construction is substantially improved, IMO. Also, no single sided PCB's are use anymore for enhanced electrical performance and reliability. All power supply capacitors are now low ESR 105 C rated for long life. They now use the very rugged On Semi power devices, just like the X Series. The preamps are all new designs, as is the SSP. All in all, much better than the prior series, and the Ultras were very sweet. These are sweeter!! We learn from each generation of design and strive to improve the next. That doesn't mean the old ones were junk! I hope you all just calm down and enjoy these wonderful new products. Cheers, Big Dan
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Post by Dan Laufman on May 28, 2016 7:22:34 GMT -5
I am not really sure why anyone is getting worked up because forum goers point something out about the new products. The fact that every amp Emotiva sold to this point carried a five year warranty and seeing now that the new line offers a three year warranty, questions should be expected. I think 95% of us that frequent the forums are fans of the company and what they offer and are not trying to be critical. Before I knew a single thing about the what the new product lines offered I knew some things were going to change. Once you leave internet direct sales and move to the Emotiva partner brick and mortar stores which are obviously getting a cut there will have to be compromises. I was just surprised the changes came in the way of lesser warranty periods. I am perfectly happy with my gear and I am not looking to argue with people but I think it is fair game when we ask why the warranty policy has changed. Tim Agree with much of your post, but Brick and Mortar has absolutely nothing to do with our warranty decisions. It's a non-issue from our perspective. B&M sales are a portion of our business. We have not changed our margin structure or increased prices to accommodate them. We view it as incremental sales gain at reduced margins. This a a marketing and brand promotion decision for us. With all due respect to our forum family, you guys do not really understand our thinking as it relates to dealers and how we accommodate them. We can only accept a certain percentage of our business from dealers or our margins suffer too much. Repeating... We do not raise prices because of the dealers. You should be able to see this for yourselves when you look at the prices!
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Post by Dan Laufman on May 28, 2016 8:54:26 GMT -5
With all due respect to our forum family, you guys do not really understand our thinking as it relates to dealers and how we accommodate them. We can only accept a certain percentage of our business from dealers or our margins suffer too much. Repeating... We do not raise prices because of the dealers. You should be able to see this for yourselves when you look at the prices! I realize that most of us are blissfully ignorant of the complexities of the relationships - but I think it's hard not to look at newer prices and think they haven't risen. I realize that the Gen-3 is a well built amp with a higher BOM and great performance. But it seems more expensive than what I'm familiar with. It hits a different price point. Some of the other new amps don't seem much cheaper (or even the same) than the old stuff. But I'm totally glossing over how I'm thinking of 3-7+ year old prices. What I'm trying to say is that even if prices haven't risen (let's say bare cost + margins) - it still is easy for it to look like they have. Some of us are comparing new prices for new gear - against older stuff with older designs. As a new customer (or old one) - it's a no brainer since Emotiva still represents a great value. I hope this makes sense! Thanks for the reasoned reply. It's appreciated. Well, let's put this into perspective... The new X Series Gen 3 amplifier cannot be directly compared to their predecessors. They are a different animal and cost much more to produce. They are still an incredible bargain when you look at the competitive landscape. This does not even take into account their long term attractiveness due to their ability to be easily and economically reconfigured. We made a conscious decision to elevate X Series amplifiers in order to have their performance complement the capabilities or our X Series source components. Judging by the fact I can't make them fast enough to keep up with demand, it was the correct decision. The new BasX series is also an absolute steal. The performance and quality at their respective price points is without equal. And we worked very hard to get to these price points. $299.00 for a full function preamp/DAC/tuner with a solid milled aluminium faceplate and a full size chassis with VFD display and remote control? That's an insane price point, and it's a beautifully made product, not a P.O.S. And it has a three year warranty with lifetime technical support, not a one year warranty like the $2,000.00 Mac Pro I'm typing on. But hey, Apple gave me a whole 90 days of FREE technical support. After that, I can pay them $100.00 bucks to talk to them if I have a problem.... geez. Send a letter to Apple complaining about their shitty warranty coverage and see how much they care. BTW, have you looked at the price of a pickup truck lately? When did an F-150 start selling for $60k? Have you built a house lately? Material costs are up over 20% in the last 3-4 years!! Costs for EVERYTHING are on the rise. (yes, I know gas is cheap right now, but you get my point) Our cost of doing business continues to rise faster than inflation. Insurance, salaries, taxes, regulation, health care, utilities, etc. etc. take their toll of on us, and these bills must be paid. I just got audited for an excise tax on ozone depleting chemicals, that we don't even use... who knew? It took my staff a couple of weeks to compile and present three years of detailed shipping records, along with material and process analysis and declarations from EVERY vendor we do business with on original, not copy letterhead, to present to the IRS for review. Of course they would like to impose additional, new taxes on us if they possibly can.... Thank you Mr. President. We have done an amazing job of keep the retail prices constrained, while at the same time, improving the products, and absorbing the ever increasing costs of doing business in the U.S.A. And now were building more and more product in the U.S.A. because I think its the right thing to do, but then again, I'm a sucker for pain. I invite all of you to shop around. I believe you'll find that we are not such bad guys after all. And for the moment, it's still a free country. Vote with your wallets if you think we're charging you too much or not taking care of you properly. I know how hard we're working to do just that, so I'll take my chances. Cheers, Big Dan
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dmraupp
Emo VIPs
WhatEver
Posts: 729
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Post by dmraupp on May 28, 2016 9:09:22 GMT -5
I realize that most of us are blissfully ignorant of the complexities of the relationships - but I think it's hard not to look at newer prices and think they haven't risen. I realize that the Gen-3 is a well built amp with a higher BOM and great performance. But it seems more expensive than what I'm familiar with. It hits a different price point. Some of the other new amps don't seem much cheaper (or even the same) than the old stuff. But I'm totally glossing over how I'm thinking of 3-7+ year old prices. What I'm trying to say is that even if prices haven't risen (let's say bare cost + margins) - it still is easy for it to look like they have. Some of us are comparing new prices for new gear - against older stuff with older designs. As a new customer (or old one) - it's a no brainer since Emotiva still represents a great value. I hope this makes sense! Thanks for the reasoned reply. It's appreciated. Well, let's put this into perspective... The new X Series Gen 3 amplifier cannot be directly compared to their predecessors. They are a different animal and cost much more to produce. They are still an incredible bargain when you look at the competitive landscape. This does not even take into account their long term attractiveness due to their ability to be easily and economically reconfigured. We made a conscious decision to elevate X Series amplifiers in order to have their performance complement the capabilities or our X Series source components. Judging by the fact I can't make them fast enough to keep up with demand, it was the correct decision. The new BasX series is also an absolute steal. The performance and quality at their respective price points is without equal. And we worked very hard to get to these price points. $299.00 for a full function preamp/DAC/tuner with a solid milled aluminium faceplate and a full size chassis with VFD display and remote control? That's an insane price point, and it's a beautifully made product, not a P.O.S. And it has a three year warranty with lifetime technical support, not a one year warranty like the $2,000.00 Mac Pro I'm typing on. But hey, Apple gave me a whole 90 days of FREE technical support. After that, I can pay them $100.00 bucks to talk to them if I have a problem.... geez. Send a letter to Apple complaining about their shitty warranty coverage and see how much they care. BTW, have you looked at the price of a pickup truck lately? When did an F-150 start selling for $60k? Have you built a house lately? Material costs are up over 20% in the last 3-4 years!! Costs for EVERYTHING are on the rise. (yes, I know gas is cheap right now, but you get my point) Our cost of doing business continues to rise faster than inflation. Insurance, salaries, taxes, regulation, health care, utilities, etc. etc. take their toll of on us, and these bills must be paid. I just got audited for an excise tax on ozone depleting chemicals, that we don't even use... who knew? It took my staff a couple of weeks to compile and present three years of detailed shipping records, along with material and process analysis and declarations from EVERY vendor we do business with on original, not copy letterhead, to present to the IRS for review. Of course they would like to impose additional, new taxes on us if they possibly can.... Thank you Mr. President. We have done an amazing job of keep the retail prices constrained, while at the same time, improving the products, and absorbing the ever increasing costs of doing business in the U.S.A. And now were building more and more product in the U.S.A. because I think its the right thing to do, but then again, I'm a sucker for pain. I invite all of you to shop around. I believe you'll find that we are not such bad guys after all. And for the moment, it's still a free country. Vote with your wallets if you think we're charging you too much or not taking care of you properly. I know how hard we're working to do just that, so I'll take my chances. Cheers, Big Dan I get that point,sure it is all true.I also get that to a new just found Emotiva customer a 3 year warranty is awesome.I also understand that to a customer and Emotiva fan seeing the Warranty drop from 5 to 3 years raising a flag.
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Post by JKCashin on May 28, 2016 9:15:02 GMT -5
People are complaint about a 3 year warranty on a $299 unit? Wow. Buy it. Enjoy it. The reduction in warranty is not a reflection on the quality in my opinion. Warranty is insurance. Reduced insurance built into the price results in reduced initial cost. Emotiva is going for a price point here and not only have they nailed it, they appear to be providing a great product at a ridiculously low price point.
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Post by Mark on May 28, 2016 10:59:25 GMT -5
Bas -x line is on the site and ready for reservations! I am personally excited to add this line to my home theater and other areas of my system. Thank you Dan and all the Emotiva staff for this line!!!!
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Post by Dan Laufman on May 28, 2016 11:13:40 GMT -5
You're welcome!
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Post by ocezam on May 28, 2016 11:25:40 GMT -5
I have both pro and con feelings concerning Emotiva's product launches the last few years. Just like any company Emotiva designs and brings to market products that interest me and products that don't. I find the new 3 year warranty on the BasX line a non issue, but hey if it bothers you, don't buy it. I have a need for some entry level components to build a system for a wedding present in the near future. The BasX line will be perfect for this. Thank you Emotiva!
What I find most pleasing though is Dan's presence and comments on this thread. I've been around here about 10 years or so. It's been many years since I've seen Dan or Lonnie take such an active role in the forum. Thank you! Feel's like the Emotiva of old....
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 28, 2016 11:58:12 GMT -5
The only thing I see that is made in the USA is the XMC-1 and I might be wrong Jessica made this post in the comments section on an article about the BasX line: "Emotiva has many models that are made in the USA, including the XMC-1 preamp/processor, Ego DACs, the new line of X Series amplifiers, Emersa, and more to come. Many of our new products are made in the USA in our factory in Tennessee. You'll see even more made in the USA products from Emotiva in the future." I think Emotiva is finding the sweet spots for what is MIUSA and what is MIC, it seems very well thought out to me.
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Post by Poodleluvr on May 28, 2016 12:11:39 GMT -5
I like what I'm seeing in regards to the BasX line. The specs, price, and warranty all together is a great value package deal!
I'm also very happy to see a new line of Class A/B products from Emotiva.-- Thank you!
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Post by Dan Laufman on May 28, 2016 12:16:21 GMT -5
This is a brand new spanking line of products for us and their warranty is 3 years. It isn't like we are reducing the XPAs to 3 years or anything. They are still at 5. The Egos have a 1 year warranty. Different product ranges and series can have different warranties. It's silly that THIS is the thing we are discussing...and not that we have made some new kick-ass products at VERY competitive prices that gives our old stuff wedgies and rubs their face in the dirt Regardless the industry, pumping up a new generation of products by saying the ones they just replaced, that many of your loyal customers still own, are comparatively crap is just plain dumb. You'd be better off to put a lid on the emotion, and if you can't defend your new products without tearing down your previous products, just stop talking. Let me interject here... Nick is not denegrating the older gear, or trying to hurt anyone's feelings. He's just really excited and proud about the new BasX line. We've worked very hard to bring this new line of gear to the world and he, like me, is protective of his new baby! Let's all relax and enjoy the weekend. Apologies for any ruffled feathers. Peace, Big Dan
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Post by eclypse on May 28, 2016 12:20:26 GMT -5
Can't please them all dan! Don't even try.. you did come out with cheaper amps for lower budget customers and they still find something to gripe about.
I'm sure these will sell like hot cakes!
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Post by Poodleluvr on May 28, 2016 12:39:58 GMT -5
Can't please them all dan! Don't even try.. you did come out with cheaper amps for lower budget customers and they still find something to gripe about. I'm sure these will sell like hot cakes! I agree. These products are an incredible value for the noted performance and are going to fly off the shelves... Some people would complain if they were hung with a new rope...
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Post by MusicHead on May 28, 2016 12:57:07 GMT -5
Regardless the industry, pumping up a new generation of products by saying the ones they just replaced, that many of your loyal customers still own, are comparatively crap is just plain dumb. You'd be better off to put a lid on the emotion, and if you can't defend your new products without tearing down your previous products, just stop talking. Let me interject here... Nick is not denegrating the older gear, or trying to hurt anyone's feelings. He's just really excited and proud about the new BasX line. We've worked very hard to bring this new line of gear to the world and he, like me, is protective of his new baby! Let's all relax and enjoy the weekend. Apologies for any ruffled feathers. Peace, Big Dan Nothing wrong in my opinion in bragging about new products and the improvement over the old ones. After all, we not ditch our cars once the next generation comes out, despite better fuel economy, more power, better safety, lighter and stronger materials, more conveniences, etc. A new gen of anything does not make the old worse, it is just the new being better. I'd dare say this is what we call "progress"? :-) Ever seen a car manufacturer not pumping up their latest models vs the old ones? Should have we wished the new series be worse than the old, so that we owner of the "old" products did not feel bad? This is hyperbole, of course, but, come on, give the guys at Emotiva the credit for working on improved products and not recycling the old design and just using a new case... Peace back to you, Big Dan.
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Post by brutiarti on May 28, 2016 13:01:45 GMT -5
I think 3 years warranty is good but 5 is even better. I just found out that the super expensive brand Esoteric has only 1 year warranty, unbelievable.
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Post by Hair Nick on May 28, 2016 13:13:17 GMT -5
Regardless the industry, pumping up a new generation of products by saying the ones they just replaced, that many of your loyal customers still own, are comparatively crap is just plain dumb. You'd be better off to put a lid on the emotion, and if you can't defend your new products without tearing down your previous products, just stop talking. Let me interject here... Nick is not denegrating the older gear, or trying to hurt anyone's feelings. He's just really excited and proud about the new BasX line. We've worked very hard to bring this new line of gear to the world and he, like me, is protective of his new baby! Let's all relax and enjoy the weekend. Apologies for any ruffled feathers. Peace, Big Dan Exactly Big Dan. Wasn't trying to say our old gear is crap or anything bad about it, was just being playful pumping up the BasX line. We strive to go bigger and better each step of the game for you guys. A lot of us at the company still use our older gear because it is solid and even year after year it just continues to work!
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 28, 2016 13:23:22 GMT -5
Let me interject here... Nick is not denegrating the older gear, or trying to hurt anyone's feelings. He's just really excited and proud about the new BasX line. We've worked very hard to bring this new line of gear to the world and he, like me, is protective of his new baby! Let's all relax and enjoy the weekend. Apologies for any ruffled feathers. Peace, Big Dan Exactly Big Dan. Wasn't trying to say our old gear is crap or anything bad about it, was just being playful pumping up the BasX line. We strive to go bigger and better each step of the game for you guys. A lot of us at the company still use our older gear because it is solid and even year after year it just continues to work! Yes, to me it was fun loving 'smack talk', athletes do it when they know the other team is good, but still think they're better!
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