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Post by yves on Sept 2, 2016 1:24:11 GMT -5
Currently I am waiting for Emotiva to soon release the Airmotiv s15 subwoofer for $1798 / pair. Per garbulky definition I'm sure it's going to bob my head up and down so powerfully that, as a free bonus, my head is going to knock Atmos-style holes into my ceiling. |
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Post by jcisbig on Sept 2, 2016 13:56:16 GMT -5
Man, there's a lot of info and ideas in this thread, thank you to all who are participating!
I just threw in Interstellar for kicks and was listening to the movie at 50.0 on my UMC-200. I have no idea what "reference" is on that unit since you can't change the volume display mode. I watched the part of the movie where they go through the singularity and there is a ton of bass! My overall system SPL was right at about 100dB, and the sub output (turned my speaker amps off) was right up there at near 100dB as well. That's the volume I normally listen at.
There were a few moments right before they exited the singularity where my driver was moving like crazy and I think I heard some very faint very quiet "popping" sounds, maybe three or four of them, unevenly spaced apart. Maybe this is the driver being pushed too hard? Maybe it's an issue in the movie soundtrack? I don't know. But it's things like that that make me nervous!
Whatever I end up buying to replace my current sub, I want to be sure that it will be able to handle whatever content I throw at it well, and without damaging itself.
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Post by fbczar on Sept 2, 2016 14:06:11 GMT -5
Man, there's a lot of info and ideas in this thread, thank you to all who are participating! I just threw in Interstellar for kicks and was listening to the movie at 50.0 on my UMC-200. I have no idea what "reference" is on that unit since you can't change the volume display mode. I watched the part of the movie where they go through the singularity and there is a ton of bass! My overall system SPL was right at about 100dB, and the sub output (turned my speaker amps off) was right up there at near 100dB as well. That's the volume I normally listen at. There were a few moments right before they exited the singularity where my driver was moving like crazy and I think I heard some very faint very quiet "popping" sounds, maybe three or four of them, unevenly spaced apart. Maybe this is the driver being pushed too hard? Maybe it's an issue in the movie soundtrack? I don't know. But it's things like that that make me nervous! Whatever I end up buying to replace my current sub, I want to be sure that it will be able to handle whatever content I throw at it well, and without damaging itself. Are your speakers sealed or ported? With your HSU VT-15H you have the flexibility of changing the subwoofer from working as a sealed sub or ported sub. If your main speakers are sealed try the HSU in a sealed configuration. You may be an output kind of guy, but the sub should play lower sealed and you may like it. I am pretty sure you could add another HSU just like the one you have and place it so it is co-located with the other sub and bring the house down! |
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DYohn
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Posts: 18,366
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Post by DYohn on Sept 2, 2016 14:10:03 GMT -5
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Post by knucklehead on Sept 2, 2016 14:20:51 GMT -5
Maybe I missed it - what does 'normal listening levels' mean? I started reading this thread yesterday but was too busy to ask that question. Should be easy since the OP has an analog sound meter. Reference level is (IIRC) right around 86db which might produce up to 105db in the peaks.
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Post by jcisbig on Sept 2, 2016 14:21:09 GMT -5
Man, there's a lot of info and ideas in this thread, thank you to all who are participating! I just threw in Interstellar for kicks and was listening to the movie at 50.0 on my UMC-200. I have no idea what "reference" is on that unit since you can't change the volume display mode. I watched the part of the movie where they go through the singularity and there is a ton of bass! My overall system SPL was right at about 100dB, and the sub output (turned my speaker amps off) was right up there at near 100dB as well. That's the volume I normally listen at. There were a few moments right before they exited the singularity where my driver was moving like crazy and I think I heard some very faint very quiet "popping" sounds, maybe three or four of them, unevenly spaced apart. Maybe this is the driver being pushed too hard? Maybe it's an issue in the movie soundtrack? I don't know. But it's things like that that make me nervous! Whatever I end up buying to replace my current sub, I want to be sure that it will be able to handle whatever content I throw at it well, and without damaging itself. Are your speakers sealed or ported? With your HSU VT-15H you have the flexibility of changing the subwoofer from working as a sealed sub or ported sub. If your main speakers are sealed try the HSU in a sealed configuration. You may be an output kind of guy, but the sub should play lower sealed and you may like it. I am pretty sure you could add another HSU just like the one you have and place it so it is co-located with the other sub and bring the house down! My towers are ported, all the rest are sealed. The level of output I'm getting from the sub is close to satisfactory, I'd like it to be perhaps a little louder than it is. I've got it running in 2 ports open mode, so it should be giving me the highest SPL output that it's capable of. Going into sealed mode would make it too quiet, I did try that a while back and I lost too much output. When I do move to dual subs, I will be placing them in different locations in an effort to smooth out bass for the entire room (I've got seats for 10 people in my room, see page 1 post 1 of this thread). There's a part of me that thinks I should just get dual Captivator 1400s and call it good, but that's a lot of money and I'd lose out on the even deeper extension of the S1s. Still, there's another part of me that knows the mk2 version of my HSU sub has double the amp power and can play 3dB louder, and then adding another 15H mk 2 to that one should not only smooth out bass in my room but give me even more output over the increase I would get moving up to the mk2 in the first place. |
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Post by fbczar on Sept 2, 2016 14:21:54 GMT -5
I see your Aperion Verus Grand Towers are ported so the HSU will work better in a ported configuration. You may want to experiment with open both ports or closing one of the ports on the HSU. Where is the sub placed in your room?
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Post by jcisbig on Sept 2, 2016 14:26:43 GMT -5
Maybe I missed it - what does 'normal listening levels' mean? I started reading this thread yesterday but was too busy to ask that question. Should be easy since the OP has an analog sound meter. Reference level is (IIRC) right around 86db which might produce up to 105db in the peaks. It's hard for me to say what my "normal listening level" is. I usually turn up the volume until dialogue sounds natural, not unrealistically quiet, nor overly loud. As I mentioned in my previous post within the last hour, Interstellar maxed out in the Singularity scene right around 100dB with my UMC-200 at 50.0 volume level. During the normal dialogue parts I think I was reading in the mid 80's SPL. |
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Post by jcisbig on Sept 2, 2016 14:29:43 GMT -5
I see your Aperion Verus Grand Towers are ported so the HSU will work better in a ported configuration. You may want to experiment with open both ports or closing one of the ports on the HSU. Where is the sub placed in your room? If you look at the pictures on the first page, you'll get a good feel for what my room is like. The sub is placed just inside the right tower. Any changes that I make to the sub (changing the EQ switch on the back or plugging 1 or both ports) will reduce the overall output of the sub (except for the REALLY low frequencies which might get a bump in sealed mode), and I fear that that reduction will cause me to overdrive the sub in the higher frequencies. I'd really rather not damage anything if I can help it. : ) |
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Post by jcisbig on Sept 2, 2016 14:36:01 GMT -5
A lot of the bottom line here is that I feel like I might be pushing my sub to 95% of it's ability on certain scenes, and that makes me really nervous. I put good money into that sub and I don't want to see it break!
So the questions are:
1) What happens if I replace my current 15H with a 15H mk2 (double the amp power, supposedly netting a +3dB response over the mk1) - Would that be enough?
2) What happens if I run dual 15H mk2 subs? One of these would be a +3dB increase over my standard mk1 sub, and duals would give me even more output (but not co-located). - Would that be enough?
3) What about running THREE 15H mk2 subs in my room? Would that be enough, if it's even a good idea.
4) What about running Dual Captivators in my room? - Would that be enough?
4a) Do I go with Dual S1s for the extension?
4b) Do I go with Dual 1400s for the output?
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Post by fbczar on Sept 2, 2016 14:46:36 GMT -5
I see your Aperion Verus Grand Towers are ported so the HSU will work better in a ported configuration. You may want to experiment with open both ports or closing one of the ports on the HSU. Where is the sub placed in your room? If you look at the pictures on the first page, you'll get a good feel for what my room is like. The sub is placed just inside the right tower. Any changes that I make to the sub (changing the EQ switch on the back or plugging 1 or both ports) will reduce the overall output of the sub (except for the REALLY low frequencies which might get a bump in sealed mode), and I fear that that reduction will cause me to overdrive the sub in the higher frequencies. I'd really rather not damage anything if I can help it. : ) Sorry if I misunderstand what you are saying, but your crossover will limit the range of the sub and the range of your other speakers. If your crossover point for your other speakers is 80Hz that will be as high as the sub will play. So you do not need to worry about overdriving the sub in the higher frequencies. Does your processor allow you to set the volume level of each speaker? If so, try this: Set all your speakers except for the sub to 75db. Then set your sub to 83db. After that adjust the sub downward until you find a setting you like. You could also put the sub in the corner and gain some output. Probably around 3db. As far as how much output you need, the sub you have is a beast. If you are going to upgrade, another one located in the same spot on the left should provide all the output you can stand. |
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Post by fbczar on Sept 2, 2016 14:51:44 GMT -5
A lot of the bottom line here is that I feel like I might be pushing my sub to 95% of it's ability on certain scenes, and that makes me really nervous. I put good money into that sub and I don't want to see it break! So the questions are: 1) What happens if I replace my current 15H with a 15H mk2 (double the amp power, supposedly netting a +3dB response over the mk1) - Would that be enough? 2) What happens if I run dual 15H mk2 subs? One of these would be a +3dB increase over my standard mk1 sub, and duals would give me even more output (but not co-located). - Would that be enough? 3) What about running THREE 15H mk2 subs in my room? Would that be enough, if it's even a good idea. 4) What about running Dual Captivators in my room? - Would that be enough? 4a) Do I go with Dual S1s for the extension? 4b) Do I go with Dual 1400s for the output? Two of the new HSU subs or any of the others you mention will be plenty. Since you need a ported sub, HSU or Power Sound Audio are good places to start. I would call or email both companies and ask all the questions you have. You will be amazed how well they will answer your questions. |
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Post by jcisbig on Sept 2, 2016 14:53:28 GMT -5
If you look at the pictures on the first page, you'll get a good feel for what my room is like. The sub is placed just inside the right tower. Any changes that I make to the sub (changing the EQ switch on the back or plugging 1 or both ports) will reduce the overall output of the sub (except for the REALLY low frequencies which might get a bump in sealed mode), and I fear that that reduction will cause me to overdrive the sub in the higher frequencies. I'd really rather not damage anything if I can help it. : ) Sorry if I misunderstand what you are saying, but your crossover will limit the range of the sub and the range of your other speakers. If your crossover point for your other speakers is 80Hz that will be as high as the sub will play. So you do not need to worry about overdriving the sub in the higher frequencies. Does your processor allow you to set the volume level of each speaker? If so, try this: Set all your speakers except for the sub to 75db. Then set your sub to 83db. After that adjust the sub downward until you find a setting you like. You could also put the sub in the corner and gain some output. Probably around 3db. As far as how much output you need, the sub you have is a beast. If you are going to upgrade, another one located in the same spot on the left should provide all the output you can stand. What I'm saying is that for the frequencies that my sub is playing below the crossover point, having the sub configured in 2 ports mode will allow for a higher SPL than having the subwoofer in sealed mode. According to the measurments at data bass, there's almost a 5dB difference at 30hz between 2 ports open mode and sealed mode. At 45hz it's about a 3dB difference. So if I were to put the sub into sealed mode I'd MAYBE be gaining something in the low end (sub 20hz) but I'd be losing output in the 20hz to 80hz region. I also know that if I added a 2nd sub and stacked them I'd get more overall output, but in addition go gaining some output, a big priority for me is smoothing out the bass as much as I can among the 10 seats that are in my room. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 2, 2016 16:52:04 GMT -5
Maybe I need to be a bit less subtle, if the room is stil as per the picture then I'm surprised that you can make out any dialogue at all, you must have huge peaks and troughs in the low frequency response, the echo will be muddying up the sound so much that meaningfull frequency and SPL corrections will be useless. With some appropriate room correction you may well find that you have no need for additional and/or replacement subs. What is happening right now is any output from the sub is being partially cancelled by out of phase echo from the walls and corners.
I summary, before you do anything else you should do something about the acoustics.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by garbulky on Sept 2, 2016 16:59:13 GMT -5
If you can, opt for dual subs over a single one. Dual subs can smooth out frequency bumps and give a more non-localizable bass. (Which results in better bass in the soundstage - not a more vague one).
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Post by jcisbig on Sept 2, 2016 17:03:50 GMT -5
Maybe I need to be a bit less subtle, if the room is stil as per the picture then I'm surprised that you can make out any dialogue at all, you must have huge peaks and troughs in the low frequency response, the echo will be muddying up the sound so much that meaningfull frequency and SPL corrections will be useless. With some appropriate room correction you may well find that you have no need for additional and/or replacement subs. What is happening right now is any output from the sub is being partially cancelled by out of phase echo from the walls and corners. I summary, before you do anything else you should do something about the acoustics. Cheers Gary Gary, yes, I saw your post yesterday and forgot to respond to it. I've been in touch with Auralex and Gik Acoustics to help tame things in my room. GIK is suggesting tri traps floor to ceiling in my front corners, three Alpha series panels on my back wall, wall treatments for 1st reflections, and a couple panels on my front wall as well. Fret not, I'm intending to address my room's acoustics! |
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Post by jcisbig on Sept 2, 2016 17:05:02 GMT -5
If you can, opt for dual subs over a single one. Dual subs can smooth out frequency bumps and give a more non-localizable bass. (Which results in better bass in the soundstage - not a more vague one). I'm 99% sure going with dual subs. I'd like to get much more even bass response across most/all of my seats and dual subs is the only way I know how to do that. Perhaps room treatments will help with that as well. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 2, 2016 17:07:40 GMT -5
Glad to hear and hopefully without over emphasising, my suggestion would be to do the acoustics first, then rebalance and frequency tune. Then and only then revisit the question of additional/replacement subs.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by garbulky on Sept 2, 2016 17:17:03 GMT -5
Also...if you want power...don't skimp on the subs. I know that's what we want to do. But a carefully selected can be a good thing.
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Post by jcisbig on Sept 2, 2016 17:32:11 GMT -5
Glad to hear and hopefully without over emphasising, my suggestion would be to do the acoustics first, then rebalance and frequency tune. Then and only then revisit the question of additional/replacement subs. Cheers Gary Would you say that after room treatments the best place(s) for sub(s) may change? Also, I'm not sure if I understand how adding acoustical absorption to a room could increase perceived subwoofer output? I'm no expert for sure, but if anything I thought adding treatments would take away from overall output given the same volume level on the processor? |
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