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Post by jcisbig on Sept 2, 2016 17:34:13 GMT -5
Also...if you want power...don't skimp on the subs. I know that's what we want to do. But a carefully selected can be a good thing. I'm not intending to skimp on subs! I'm just trying to find the best balance between cost/performance/need. Sure I could throw 10 Captivators in my room but that would cost a lot, be expensive, create a setup nightmare, etc. But my output would be great! I'm trying to find the most cost effective product that will serve my room well, smooth out the bass across seats, and give me peace of mind in the headroom arena.
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 2, 2016 19:57:15 GMT -5
Glad to hear and hopefully without over emphasising, my suggestion would be to do the acoustics first, then rebalance and frequency tune. Then and only then revisit the question of additional/replacement subs. Would you say that after room treatments the best place(s) for sub(s) may change? Also, I'm not sure if I understand how adding acoustical absorption to a room could increase perceived subwoofer output? I'm no expert for sure, but if anything I thought adding treatments would take away from overall output given the same volume level on the processor? There's both clarity gains and volume gains from acoustic correction, more clarity means we hear what's there clearer so it often sounds louder. Volume wise what happens is the echo signal bouncing back from the walls is out of phase with the signal from the source. Simple maths +1-1=0. Sort of like noise cancelling headphones. Remove the echo and we are left with +1-0=+1. Actual experience, in my room untreated at a particular volume setting the sub produced 90db. I added a large picture acoustic panel to the rear wall and at the same volume setting it measured 96db. Simplistically it removed 6db of out of phase echo. That simple maths +96-6db= 90db remove the echo and it became +96db-0db=96db. Cheers Gary
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Post by knucklehead on Sept 2, 2016 19:59:17 GMT -5
Almost all listening spaces are built less for acoustics and more for creature comfort. Do you know for sure that your sub is in the right place for optimal bass response? Do you know how to do the 'sub crawl'? Basically you place the sub at your listening position - put on a movie with a hellacious bass sound track then crawl around on the floor until you hear the bass best. That's where your sub should be located. Or very close. You'll find the right spot is usually near a wall and close to an inside corner.
Subwoofers are built well or they aren't. You're sub is quite stout - quit worrying whether the thing is going to fly apart - turn it up and enjoy what real bass is. If you hear the driver bottom out on the coil back it down a couple of notches. A few of those won't hurt it - just don't let it do it a lot. If you decide to get another sub get one that will compliment your present sub. It's 15" - I know first hand what a 15" sub is capable of. Mine plays notes down to 20hz - and I can feel a few hz below that if I crank it up. It's quite audible from outside when I have the volume up a bit. I don't listen to music or movies all that loud so a single sub works for me.
FWIW the room correction in the UMC-200 is pathetic IMO. I owned one for a time - it got me into the 25% off for life. Plain old vanilla Audyssey EQ2 does a better job. An AVR with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 can equalize two subs so they can 'sing' in harmony.
I agree with Gary Cook and Gar - room treatments are in order for that room. You'll gain at least as much with room treatments as you will with a couple of new subs and more expensive electronics. Best of all? The room treatment will never break down on you. Good forever! Well - almost.
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 2, 2016 20:03:29 GMT -5
Admittedly EmoQ is OK, not great, but the manual PEQ system in the UMC-200 is fantastic.
Cheers Gary
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Post by jcisbig on Sept 2, 2016 20:18:31 GMT -5
Would you say that after room treatments the best place(s) for sub(s) may change? Also, I'm not sure if I understand how adding acoustical absorption to a room could increase perceived subwoofer output? I'm no expert for sure, but if anything I thought adding treatments would take away from overall output given the same volume level on the processor? There's both clarity gains and volume gains from acoustic correction, more clarity means we hear what's there clearer so it often sounds louder. Volume wise what happens is the echo signal bouncing back from the walls is out of phase with the signal from the source. Simple maths +1-1=0. Sort of like noise cancelling headphones. Remove the echo and we are left with +1-0=+1. Actual experience, in my room untreated at a particular volume setting the sub produced 90db. I added a large picture acoustic panel to the rear wall and at the same volume setting it measured 96db. Simplistically it removed 6db of out of phase echo. That simple maths +96-6db= 90db remove the echo and it became +96db-0db=96db. Cheers Gary That makes sense, and that's pretty cool!
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Post by fbczar on Sept 2, 2016 23:04:04 GMT -5
If you treat your room properly you can maximize the sound quality of the equipment you have now and you can be sure that as you move forward all the equipment you purchase will perform at its highest level. With room treatments in place EQ systems like Dirac can do a fine job of putting the finishing touches on what can be the basis for a great sound system. As to subwoofers, you do not know what you have now without room treatment in place. I would treat the room first. That will allow you to make better decisions on upgrading your subwoofer.
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Post by jcisbig on Sept 2, 2016 23:39:29 GMT -5
If you treat your room properly you can maximize the sound quality of the equipment you have now and you can be sure that as you move forward all the equipment you purchase will perform at its highest level. With room treatments in place EQ systems like Dirac can do a fine job of putting the finishing touches on what can be the basis for a great sound system. As to subwoofers, you do not know what you have now without room treatment in place. I would treat the room first. That will allow you to make better decisions on upgrading your subwoofer. Thanks for your input, this makes a lot of sense.
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Post by jcisbig on Sept 3, 2016 0:13:55 GMT -5
What's the consensus on how PSA compares to JTR in terms of overall sound quality, build quality, component quality, etc? Are they in the same league or does one outclass the other?
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Post by yves on Sept 4, 2016 1:37:22 GMT -5
There's both clarity gains and volume gains from acoustic correction, more clarity means we hear what's there clearer so it often sounds louder. Volume wise what happens is the echo signal bouncing back from the walls is out of phase with the signal from the source. Simple maths +1-1=0. Sort of like noise cancelling headphones. Remove the echo and we are left with +1-0=+1. Actual experience, in my room untreated at a particular volume setting the sub produced 90db. I added a large picture acoustic panel to the rear wall and at the same volume setting it measured 96db. Simplistically it removed 6db of out of phase echo. That simple maths +96-6db= 90db remove the echo and it became +96db-0db=96db. Cheers Gary That makes sense, and that's pretty cool! If you read up on acoustics, immediately you will see that the reality is slightly different. For example, if you go to GIK Acoustics official website, you will see that the very first and basic thing they teach you about room acoustics will be this: Emphasis in bold = mine. Source: www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-primerSo no, the volume doesn't get louder if you remove the echo, but instead, it gets LOUDER IN SOME LOCATIONS whereas in other locations it gets less loud. It's also frequency dependent, and it also depends on the locations of both the listener and the speaker/sub, as well as it depends on the size of the room, its shape, and the materials used in it (e.g. concrete vs. drywall, furniture, coverings on the walls/floor/ceiling, doors, windows, alcoves, a fireplace, beams, ducts, etc.). Further, you can't actually remove the echo completely because nobody wants to live in an anechoic space. The purpose of installing bass traps and experimenting with listener location and speaker/sub locations is to: - Reduce wild variations in the bass part of the frequency response that you get at the listening position or in the seating area, specifically, those particular wild variations that matter most to us due to how our human hearing factually works (i.e. the science of psychoacoustics, as opposed to all the anti-science that rides across the internet, and very much despite the fact that listening is only part science, part subjectiveness, which is also naturally obvious).
- Reduce excessive decay times such that the durations of the echos (in relation to frequency) will be more uniform.
- Reduce seat-to-seat variations (if the goal is to address a whole seating area instead of only a single listening position).
www.harman.com/sites/default/files/white-paper/12/11/2015%20-%2006%3A25/files/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt3.pdfarqen.com/acoustics-101/room-setup-speaker-placementarqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker-placement-boundary-interferencearqen.com/acoustics-101/surround-sound-speaker-placementarqen.com/acoustics-101/room-setup-acoustic-treatmentarqen.com/bass-traps-101/placement-guiderealtraps.com/art_basics.htm (Other interesting educational articles and videos can be found by clicking on "More RealTraps Articles" and on "RealTraps Educational Videos"). ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html (This interesting article also contains various links to other interesting ones). www.gikacoustics.com/articles (You can hover your mouse over "EDUCATION" and over "VIDEOS" to see more links to other interes... OK... I think I'll stop now! ).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2016 10:49:24 GMT -5
What's the consensus on how PSA compares to JTR in terms of overall sound quality, build quality, component quality, etc? Are they in the same league or does one outclass the other? On what you mentioned they are same league Depending on model one could outperform the other. Depends
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Post by jcisbig on Sept 4, 2016 12:32:37 GMT -5
What's the consensus on how PSA compares to JTR in terms of overall sound quality, build quality, component quality, etc? Are they in the same league or does one outclass the other? On what you mentioned they are same league Depending on model one could outperform the other. Depends That's what I was hoping to hear. However, looking at some of the pictures of the drivers in each of the subs, its looks like JTR has some much beefier drivers/magnets/whathaveyou. Didn't know if that meant something in terms of longevity, performance, quality, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2016 12:46:21 GMT -5
On what you mentioned they are same league Depending on model one could outperform the other. Depends That's what I was hoping to hear. However, looking at some of the pictures of the drivers in each of the subs, its looks like JTR has some much beefier drivers/magnets/whathaveyou. Didn't know if that meant something in terms of longevity, performance, quality, etc. Longevity and performance are debatable. Quality also debatable But i will tell you it's impossible to tell anything by looks alone. I'll tell you they are both phenomenal companies. And products. You can't go wrong either l But I know for a fact Tom at psa will bend over backwards to make sure you are pleased before during and well after your purchase
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 4, 2016 18:26:31 GMT -5
That makes sense, and that's pretty cool! If you read up on acoustics, immediately you will see that the reality is slightly different. For example, if you go to GIK Acoustics official website, you will see that the very first and basic thing they teach you about room acoustics will be this................. Just for clarification Yves, I was giving a simple, easy to understand example as a means to convince someone to think about acoustics who previously seemed to know little about it. I was not attempting to fully educate them on the complexities of room acoustics, simply attempting to get them interested first before confusing the hell out of them and risk turning them away. Cheers Gary
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