|
|
Post by Casey Leedom on Mar 4, 2017 12:23:09 GMT -5
So I've been seeing random notes regarding the Hypex Ncore Class D Amplifier technology developed by Bruno Putzeys in the Netherlands. There was a big surge of articles a few years ago and then a bit fewer recently. The comments about them were pretty over-the-top positive, with references to Bruno as a genius regarding Class D Amplifier design. There are even DIY mono block kits one can have using their NC400 module for just shy of $700/each and many Very Expensive commercial OEM implementations based on the more powerful NC1200 module. Meanwhile we have the much more prevalently deployed Bang & Olufsen Class D ICE modules in use by a lot of OEMs — many quite affordable. And many of those have received very good reviews with a few small caveats regarding particular models. So it's clear that we seem to be entering a "Golden Age" of Class D audio Amplifiers. Is there any brief paper or set of papers I can read to develop a comparison view of the pros and cons of these two (and perhaps other) implementation approaches to Class D Amplifier design? This is mostly academic interest, though it might be amusing to grab a couple of the Hypex DIY NC400 kits for fun ... Casey |
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,090
|
Post by klinemj on Mar 4, 2017 13:37:05 GMT -5
Is there any brief paper or set of papers I can read to develop a comparison view of the pros and cons of these two (and perhaps other) implementation approaches to Class D Amplifier design? This is mostly academic interest, though it might be amusing to grab a couple of the Hypex DIY NC400 kits for fun ... I have not seen a simple comparison of the options, but I do own the nCores. I built a pair of monoblocks and love them. They replaced an XPA-2, and to my surprise, the pack all the punch the XPA-2 had and sound cleaner/less harsh. As a bonus, they are so light, I have mine hanging on the wall instead of being in a rack...a fun difference! Class D definitely is different today than its historical reputation. Great sound,loght weight,low power consumption for the output. Love mine. Mark |
|
|
|
Post by Casey Leedom on Mar 4, 2017 13:49:07 GMT -5
Cool. Interesting to hear Did you buy them directly from Hypex or some U.S. distributor? They're cheap enough that I could build them and try them just for fun.
Casey
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,090
|
Post by klinemj on Mar 4, 2017 14:18:22 GMT -5
Cool. Interesting to hear Did you buy them directly from Hypex or some U.S. distributor? They're cheap enough that I could build them and try them just for fun. Casey I bought the parts direct from Hypex. The build is easy and for the few questions I had, their support team was very helpful. The hardest part for me was my custom cases...and that was not really hard. Mark |
|
|
|
Post by Casey Leedom on Mar 4, 2017 14:30:01 GMT -5
Thanks, cool to know Mark! The current kit includes a case it looks like. About the only thing missing is a 12V Trigger input, but I suppose one could just put them on a 12V Triggered outlet ... or just leave them on indefinitely since their idle current draw is insanely low.
Casey
|
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Mar 4, 2017 15:06:51 GMT -5
Those NC400 units measure very well.
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,090
|
Post by klinemj on Mar 4, 2017 16:07:42 GMT -5
Thanks, cool to know Mark! The current kit includes a case it looks like. About the only thing missing is a 12V Trigger input, but I suppose one could just put them on a 12V Triggered outlet ... or just leave them on indefinitely since their idle current draw is insanely low. Casey I just let mine run. I didn't want anything extra electrically. When I bought mine, all you could buy from them was the amp module and power supply module. They came with the basic wiring to connect the power supply to the amp module and the amp inputs to line ins, and that was it. I supplied the case, binding posts, power line/switch, and input connectors. Still an easy build. Mark |
|
|
|
Post by clearear on Mar 4, 2017 16:16:44 GMT -5
The Airmotiv 3B speakers contain a 30 watt integrated Class D amp. They sound great.
|
|
|
|
Post by neekos on Mar 4, 2017 18:23:15 GMT -5
Love my Wyred4Sound MMC-5
|
|
|
|
Post by vneal on Mar 4, 2017 19:46:40 GMT -5
D SONIC
|
|
|
|
Post by Casey Leedom on Mar 5, 2017 2:15:41 GMT -5
Hhmmm, interesting. Almost all of the D-Sonic Amplifiers apparently use the B&O ICEpower modules ut it looks like the 1,500W mono block M2-1500M is using "something else" ...
Casey
|
|
|
|
Post by vneal on Mar 5, 2017 9:23:02 GMT -5
The guy who makes the D Sonic is in our Houston Audio Society club and his system looks modest---but sounds GREAT
|
|
|
|
Post by Casey Leedom on Mar 5, 2017 12:01:03 GMT -5
Is that Dennis Deacon? A 6moons review of the M2-1500M says that Mr. Deacon trained as a Mechanical engineer. All the other Sonic Amplifiers use ICEpower, but the M2-1500M uses "something else" and later on refers to is as a "SOA class D core amplifier module" (second page). Any clue what it's using? It looks like he's using pre-assembled Amplifier Modules and putting them together with Power Supplies and cases, rather than designing his own Class D Amplifier circuitry. Again, just curious. Casey |
|
|
|
Post by pawsman on Mar 5, 2017 12:57:38 GMT -5
The 1500 Watt module is probably the Pascal module, the same one in Jeff Rowlands Daemon integrated
amplifier. Which looks like a very serious piece of work, BTW-
Greg K.
|
|
|
|
Post by Casey Leedom on Mar 5, 2017 14:06:50 GMT -5
Wow. I hadn't even heard of Pascal before you mentioned them. It does truly appear that we're living in a "Golden Age of Class D Amplifier Design" ... I'm guessing that there'll be a lot of technology movement with a lot of companies rapidly developing new design ideas followed by an industry shakeout as various companies fold/merge. Fun.
Casey
|
|
|
|
Post by vneal on Mar 5, 2017 16:32:43 GMT -5
Is that Dennis Deacon? A 6moons review of the M2-1500M says that Mr. Deacon trained as a Mechanical engineer. All the other Sonic Amplifiers use ICEpower, but the M2-1500M uses "something else" and later on refers to is as a "SOA class D core amplifier module" (second page). Any clue what it's using? It looks like he's using pre-assembled Amplifier Modules and putting them together with Power Supplies and cases, rather than designing his own Class D Amplifier circuitry. Again, just curious. Casey It is Dennis |
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Mar 5, 2017 18:04:38 GMT -5
So, an alternative view. I've used Class D amplifiers extensively, mostly in profession environments where their comparatively light weight, efficiency (electricity in versus watts out) and outright grunt are big advantages. Other than the outright grunt for use with subwoofers I haven't found any of the others to be a real world advantage. For example converting over to 100% Class D amplification didn't make any difference to my electricity bill and I don't move my gear around very often, like hardly ever. So the upsides aren't really upsides for me. The downsides however are, mostly I'm not a fan of accentuated highs and all of the Class D amplifiers that I have tried (including Hypex N Cores) have that issue. I also have experienced issues with digital switching interference with other audio devices that were in proximity. As a result of the higher frequency accentuation Class D amplifiers are sensitive to their source and speakers. For example I wouldn't like to hear an Oppo 105 with their Sabre DAC's through a Class D amplifier and Klipsch speakers, OMG talk about a triple decker pain sandwich.
Obviously them's my ears, other ears (like Mark's) may find the overall effect quite pleasant.
Cheers
Gary
|
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Mar 5, 2017 18:07:52 GMT -5
So, an alternative view. I've used Class D amplifiers extensively, mostly in profession environments where their comparatively light weight, efficiency (electricity in versus watts out) and outright grunt are big advantages. Other than the outright grunt for use with subwoofers I haven't found any of the others to be a real world advantage. For example converting over to 100% Class D amplification didn't make any difference to my electricity bill and I don't move my gear around very often, like hardly ever. So the upsides aren't really upsides for me. The downsides however are, mostly I'm not a fan of accentuated highs and all of the Class D amplifiers that I have tried (including Hypex N Cores) have that issue. I also have experienced issues with digital switching interference with other audio devices that were in proximity. As a result of the higher frequency accentuation Class D amplifiers are sensitive to their source and speakers. For example I wouldn't like to hear an Oppo 105 with their Sabre DAC's through a Class D amplifier and Klipsch speakers, OMG talk about a triple decker pain sandwich. Obviously them's my ears, other ears (like Mark's) may find the overall effect quite pleasant. Cheers Gary You've tried the ncores? What did you think of them? |
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Mar 5, 2017 18:45:21 GMT -5
So, an alternative view. I've used Class D amplifiers extensively, mostly in profession environments where their comparatively light weight, efficiency (electricity in versus watts out) and outright grunt are big advantages. Other than the outright grunt for use with subwoofers I haven't found any of the others to be a real world advantage. For example converting over to 100% Class D amplification didn't make any difference to my electricity bill and I don't move my gear around very often, like hardly ever. So the upsides aren't really upsides for me. The downsides however are, mostly I'm not a fan of accentuated highs and all of the Class D amplifiers that I have tried (including Hypex N Cores) have that issue. I also have experienced issues with digital switching interference with other audio devices that were in proximity. As a result of the higher frequency accentuation Class D amplifiers are sensitive to their source and speakers. For example I wouldn't like to hear an Oppo 105 with their Sabre DAC's through a Class D amplifier and Klipsch speakers, OMG talk about a triple decker pain sandwich. Obviously them's my ears, other ears (like Mark's) may find the overall effect quite pleasant. You've tried the ncores? What did you think of them? I did post up my thoughts some time ago, I recall it was round 2013 when I first experience a pair of Ncores and I have had a couple of similer experiences since. Just quickly, one example, I long time friend of mine also a professional roady back in the day, is a dab hand with a soldering iron and he bought an Ncore kit pair to DIY. Once completed he ran into some difficulties, mostly digital interference as well as distortion from one channel and an overall unimpressive sound quality. My opinion not his, he rather liked the sound, but the other issues were driving him nuts. I hopped over to his place a couple of times and with Hypex help (via very expensive phone calls) we were finally able to rectify the issues. A couple of component swaps (fixed the distortion issue) and re packaging pretty much fixed the digital interference issues (not 100%, but tolerable). He has some, what I would call, fairly mellow speakers in a pair of vintage Tannoys and plays a lot of vinyl, so the high frequency accentuation is not so noticeable. But even in that environemnt it still annoys me and I find it tiring for long term listening as well. I have tried one of his Ncores in my system, with one channel Ncore amplification and the other XPA-5, switch to mono and listen. Needless to say I didn't leave it in my system for very long. He currently works on movies as a rigger and as a result is often overseas for long periods of time. When he is around we exchange venues for our long time friends' get togethers and it's split about 50/50 who likes and who doesn't like the Ncores. So I'm not alone, the tube fanboy friend of ours (yes, everybody has one of those) in particular hates them with a passion. It's kinda like Sabre DACs, some people like them and some people don't. Cheers Gary |
|
|
|
Post by Casey Leedom on Mar 5, 2017 19:14:45 GMT -5
So Gary, I presume you've also listened to ICEpower Amplifiers and felt they also "accentuated the high frequencies"? It would be interesting to see what an FFT would show compared to a linear amplifier.
Casey
|
|
