DAC Options...input requested

[klinemj]

Caution: If you are someone who thinks "all DAC's sound the same", ignore this thread.

(And see page 4 for a summary of what I learned...hope it is useful to others looking for DAC options!)

So, I've gone from a Denon 2930ci CD/DVD player, to an ERC-2 CD player, to a DC-1 playing streamed music (FLAC mostly or Tidal Hi-Fi), to using the XMC-1's internal DAC, to an LH Labs Geek Pulse X Infinity DAC.

I have notice steady stream of improvement along the way. And, frankly, I love the Geek's sound. I mean - I really love it. But, LH Labs is not very customer service oriented when issues arise.

Net, I would love to find a DAC that is on par with the Geek but comes from a company with a more solid service reputation.

Requirements are as follows: must accept USB input as well as coax/optical. ideally has XLR outputs and is fully balanced, but singled ended/RCA is OK. no remote operation required but that would be nice. sound must top the DC-1 and XMC-1 (in reference stereo mode) and ideally at least match the Geek. Cost cannot be "crazy" (as it...not going to spend $3000 or more...).

Options I have been considering are the Schiit Gungnir Multibit and the Schiit Yggdrasil and anything else others can recommend to consider. I am particularly interested in anyone who has compared the Gungnir vs. the Yggy and either to the DC-1 and XMC-1 in reference stereo mode.

As additional consideration, I have read garbulky's review of the Gungnir Multibit, so I am aware of his thoughts and concerns on warmup time. And, at present, I consider the Emotiva DC-1 their "top dog", so unless they come out with a DC-1 killer...I'm not even considering any of their other options. And, I don't want anything built into a preamp or processor...I want a stand alone DAC.

Thanks for any input you can offer!

Mark

[brubacca]

LH Labs is a horrible company. If I were a lawyer I'd volunteer to sue them based on the geek wave debacle.

That being said BoomIlla and Garbulky compared a Schiit Gungnir Multibit to a D.C.-1 recently. They didn't feel that the Gumby was significantly better than the D.C.-1 and/or PT-100 DAC.

I have a Gumby and really like it, but if I had the money Yggy would be mine. Knowing the reputation for the LH Labs sound and DAC Chip (Sabre right?) I have two recommendations.

1- you will probably prefer the Yggy to the Gumby. The Gumby is very analog sounding. Instruments sound real , but the DAC character is a bit laid back. This is a slight bit.

2- look for other good implementations of the Sabre DAC, I haven't paid much attention. I'd be very interested in the Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Supreme and the Oppo HA-1 headphone amp/DAC.

[saru]

I've been playing my Gumby through the XMC-1 reference stereo mode for the past week. The sound quality does seem to be improving with time, but I haven't yet switched back to the XMC's internal DAC in reference mode for comparison. Maybe I'll do that tonight if I'm feeling ambitious enough for some A/B listening. While I feel confident in saying that the Gumby sounds at least as good as the XMC in ref stereo, I also know that my room benefits quite a bit from Dirac processing, which is all done with the XMC's DAC. So that ought to be a consideration for you as well: how much will you be doing 2ch listening in ref stereo rather than stereo with Dirac?

The Oppo players and their Sabre DACs come into these conversations a lot. Have you considered them as well? I've read many people consistently hear differences when using the Oppo DACs instead of the XMC internal DAC.

[Axis]

I really like my Emotiva DC-1 Mark. I look forward to new tech or chips that will improve turning digital into analog. I am looking for a surprise product from Emotiva or Schiit in the future that will nock the socks off of the current batch of high dollar DACs that everyone is raving about now. New things are bound to come from those that don't make you have to go without food or gas money to get one. A DC-1 at $500 is a great deal with its performance and features in a small form. I'm sure there are plenty other good DACs out there for close to the same price but my DC-1 will give them a good run for the money.

[klinemj]

Apr 2, 2017 11:43:32 GMT -5 brubacca said:

LH Labs is a horrible company. If I were a lawyer I'd volunteer to sue them based on the geek wave debacle.

That being said BoomIlla and Garbulky compared a Schiit Gungnir Multibit to a D.C.-1 recently. They didn't feel that the Gumby was significantly better than the D.C.-1 and/or PT-100 DAC.

I have a Gumby and really like it, but if I had the money Yggy would be mine. Knowing the reputation for the LH Labs sound and DAC Chip (Sabre right?) I have two recommendations.

1- you will probably prefer the Yggy to the Gumby. The Gumby is very analog sounding. Instruments sound real , but the DAC character is a bit laid back. This is a slight bit.

2- look for other good implementations of the Sabre DAC, I haven't paid much attention. I'd be very interested in the Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Supreme and the Oppo HA-1 headphone amp/DAC.

You got that right on LH Labs.

As for sabre vs other chips, the Geek and my Oppo 105 taught me that a chip one one company can sound radically different based on the implementation. I love the specific ESS chip in the Geek implementation but strongly dislike anothe ESS in the Oppo 105 (which I also own).

Very tempting to try the Yggy...

And, I know about boom and gar's trial of the Gungnir. Just looking for other opinions on the Gungnir Multibit. Boom and I see the DC-1 and Oppo very differently, and the DC-1 is a high bar for gar (hey, I made a rhyme, just in time!). Net, while I value theor opinions, looking for others.

Mark

[klinemj]

Apr 2, 2017 11:58:31 GMT -5 saru said:

I've been playing my Gumby through the XMC-1 reference stereo mode for the past week. The sound quality does seem to be improving with time, but I haven't yet switched back to the XMC's internal DAC in reference mode for comparison. Maybe I'll do that tonight if I'm feeling ambitious enough for some A/B listening. While I feel confident in saying that the Gumby sounds at least as good as the XMC in ref stereo, I also know that my room benefits quite a bit from Dirac processing, which is all done with the XMC's DAC. So that ought to be a consideration for you as well: how much will you be doing 2ch listening in ref stereo rather than stereo with Dirac?

The Oppo players and their Sabre DACs come into these conversations a lot. Have you considered them as well? I've read many people consistently hear differences when using the Oppo DACs instead of the XMC internal DAC.

I have an Oppo 105, and as much as I love the ESS chip's implementation in the Geek, I dislike it in the Oppo. And, while I have an XMC with Dirac full and initially chose that with Dirac on over the DC-1 through and XSP-1, once I got the Geek...I preferred it over the XMC for 2 channel...even without Dirac.

And, I got a tube amp and can run it either straight from the DAC w/o a sub OR from the XMC-1 in reference stereo but with a sub (very tricky wiring, but it works...). No matter what, the Geek sounds great...but I dread support.

Mark

[klinemj]

Apr 2, 2017 12:20:07 GMT -5 Axis said:

I really like my Emotiva DC-1 Mark. I look forward to new tech or chips that will improve turning digital into analog. I am looking for a surprise product from Emotiva or Schiit in the future that will nock the socks off of the current batch of high dollar DACs that everyone is raving about now. New things are bound to come from those that don't make you have to go without food or gas money to get one. A DC-1 at $500 is a great deal with its performance and features in a small form. I'm sure there are plenty other good DACs out there for close to the same price but my DC-1 will give them a good run for the money.

I am also hoping for the next gen "knock my socks off" option. I have the DC-1 hooked up now, and as much as I love it..the Geek toasted it. I had to take the Geek out of my system, and the DC-1...while very good...is a step back. Steps back are tough.

Mark

[RichGuy]

I would suggest you also look at MHDT Labs. their DACs are very nice and the most musical I have heard I really love their sound. I own two, first the MHDT Havana and just recently I bought an MHDT Balanced Stockhholm. I still own and love both.

These are NOS (non oversampling) tube DACs my experience with them is one of the best musical changes I've made in my system. The best I remember of vinyl and the best of digital combined and the best music my system has ever made. I have played with a few different tubes and found nice favorite which is the vintage Western Electric JW 2C51 396A, it's fun to play wit a little tube rolling tough the original tubes sound very nice as well.

I have considered both the Schiit Gungnir Multibit and the Schiit Yggdrasil I have not heard them but I do hope to sometime, I am not too far from the new Schiit retail store . But with lots of research I think the MHDT are probably a better more musical fit in my system and speakers. I think Schitt are more analytical and less musical from my research.

The MHDT have exceptional detail yet are so musical not analytical at all, very musical and the most realistic voices and instruments as well, the MHDT adds a warmth yet the most detailed sound to my system.

Here are pics of an MHDT Balanced Stockholm.

[teaman]

Apr 2, 2017 12:49:54 GMT -5 RichGuy said:

I would suggest you also look at MHDT Labs. their DACs are very nice and the most musical I have heard I really love their sound. I own two, first the MHDT Havana and just recently I bought an MHDT Balanced Stockhholm. I still own and love both.

These are NOS (non oversampling) tube DACs my experience with them is one of the best musical changes I've made in my system. The best I remember of vinyl and the best of digital combined and the best music my system has ever made. I have played with a few different tubes and found nice favorite which is the vintage Western Electric JW 2C51 396A, it's fun to play wit a little tube rolling tough the original tubes sound very nice as well.

I have considered both the Schiit Gungnir Multibit and the Schiit Yggdrasil I have not heard them but I do hope to sometime, I am not too far from the new Schiit retail store . But with lots of research I think the MHDT are probably a better more musical fit in my system and speakers. I think Schitt are more analytical and less musical from my research.

The MHDT have exceptional detail yet are so musical not analytical at all, very musical and the most realistic voices and instruments as well, the MHDT adds a warmth yet the most detailed sound to my system.

Here are pics of an MHDT Balanced Stockholm.

Nice table....lol!

[Axis]

Apr 2, 2017 12:38:58 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Apr 2, 2017 12:20:07 GMT -5 Axis said:

I really like my Emotiva DC-1 Mark. I look forward to new tech or chips that will improve turning digital into analog. I am looking for a surprise product from Emotiva or Schiit in the future that will nock the socks off of the current batch of high dollar DACs that everyone is raving about now. New things are bound to come from those that don't make you have to go without food or gas money to get one. A DC-1 at $500 is a great deal with its performance and features in a small form. I'm sure there are plenty other good DACs out there for close to the same price but my DC-1 will give them a good run for the money.

I am also hoping for the next gen "knock my socks off" option. I have the DC-1 hooked up now, and as much as I love it..the Geek toasted it. I had to take the Geek out of my system, and the DC-1...while very good...is a step back. Steps back are tough.

Mark

It there a certain model Geek and what is the price ?

Has the DC-1 been out for longer than the Geek ?

What input and output are you using with the DC-1 ?

[Casey Leedom]

Just curious as to why you don't want to have a DAC as part of a per-amplifier/processor? I'm personally thinking g of going the other way — probably with either the RMC-1 or the XMC-2 (presumably using the same AK chips as the RMC-1). My thinking was that the less time spent as a low-voltage signal floating around in the potentially noisy environment of audio equipment, the better. (Though I suppose the ultimate expression of that would be to route a DAC straight to an amplifier, but that would make switching sources a pain.) But, I really haven't spent any time at all listening to and comparing different DACs. So, again, my question is one of curiosity and not intended as baiting.

Casey

[RichGuy]

Apr 2, 2017 12:52:05 GMT -5 teaman said:

Nice table....lol!

LOL sorry these aren't my pics so I can't post more interesting "table" pics for you in this thread.

[Casey Leedom]

Oh, and specifically to your request, a friend of mine has the Teac NT-503 and loves it.

Casey

[garbulky]

The Geek infinity DAC has a slightly different sound signature. It does bring lots of details, maybe a tad bit more than the DC-1. However I did not prefer the treble tone/coloration which felt artificial - slightly on the bright/electronic side of things.

The Gungnir multibit was one of the best DAC's I've auditioned though I ended up giving the hat tip to the DC-1 by a hair due to its resolution. But Gungnir's tone is definitely not like the Geek pulse .
So it may not fit the tone you like. If you are looking for a replacement for the Infnity, I suggest looking towards the Ygdrrassil instead for the (supposed) better resolution.

But keep in mind, the lack of a remote was a huge drawback for me. It may be for you too.

I found this a very useful thread as this guy actually auditioned a large number of DACs and compared it directly to the Ygdrassil.
The Holo Audio Spring DAC level 3 DAC seems to be about the same price as the Ygdrassil and so that looks like an interesting alternative to it.
www.head-fi.org/t/804153/life-after-yggdrasil

[RichGuy]

Apr 2, 2017 13:01:46 GMT -5 Casey Leedom said:

Just curious as to why you don't want to have a DAC as part of a per-amplifier/processor? I'm personally thinking g of going the other way — probably with either the RMC-1 or the XMC-2 (presumably using the same AK chips as the RMC-1). My thinking was that the less time spent as a low-voltage signal floating around in the potentially noisy environment of audio equipment, the better. (Though I suppose the ultimate expression of that would be to route a DAC straight to an amplifier, but that would make switching sources a pain.) But, I really haven't spent any time at all listening to and comparing different DACs. So, again, my question is one of curiosity and not intended as baiting.

Casey

I would say its for the same reason many of us choose to have separate amps and use processors and/or preamps without them. To be able to choose your own, upgrade as you wish, as well as a preference of separates for many reasons. I like built in DACs in a home theater processor, but for music I prefer a separate DAC and preamp to find what I prefer musically.

[klinemj]

Apr 2, 2017 12:57:49 GMT -5 Axis said:

Apr 2, 2017 12:38:58 GMT -5 klinemj said:

I am also hoping for the next gen "knock my socks off" option. I have the DC-1 hooked up now, and as much as I love it..the Geek toasted it. I had to take the Geek out of my system, and the DC-1...while very good...is a step back. Steps back are tough.

Mark

It there a certain model Geek and what is the price ?

Has the DC-1 been out for longer than the Geek ?

What input and output are you using with the DC-1 ?

I have a Geek Pulse X Infinity. Price varies a lot based on how you buy it. DC-1 has been out far longer. I use both the USB input (from PC, via Tidal Masters) and the coax input from a Sonos Connect. When I use the XMC-1 as the preamp, I use XLR outs. When I use the tube amp as preamp, I use the RCA outs. Each sounds great.

Mark

[klinemj]

Apr 2, 2017 13:01:46 GMT -5 Casey Leedom said:

Just curious as to why you don't want to have a DAC as part of a per-amplifier/processor? I'm personally thinking g of going the other way — probably with either the RMC-1 or the XMC-2 (presumably using the same AK chips as the RMC-1). My thinking was that the less time spent as a low-voltage signal floating around in the potentially noisy environment of audio equipment, the better. (Though I suppose the ultimate expression of that would be to route a DAC straight to an amplifier, but that would make switching sources a pain.) But, I really haven't spent any time at all listening to and comparing different DACs. So, again, my question is one of curiosity and not intended as baiting.

Casey

Fair question. The simple answer is that I fiund the best option for 2-channel being outboard. I have the XMC and it is awesome. But, the Geek beat it. Plain and simple. And by far.

In the future, an XMC-2 or RMC may change that, but today...no. Not for me, at least.

Mark

[Casey Leedom]

So are we counting on then that the low-voltage analogue signals coming out of the DAC, wending their way through the pre-amplifier/processor and eventually out again to an amplifier are going through relatively intact? I guess if the Signal to Noise level of that path is really good there's no real issue. Or is everyone running their DACs directly to amplifiers in dedicated two-channel systems?

Essentially, I'm trying to understand if I'm being naïve or worrying about inconsequential issues in thinking that I should keep a signal in the Digital Domain till the very last second before feeding it into an amplifier.

Casey

[Axis]

Apr 2, 2017 13:24:38 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Apr 2, 2017 12:57:49 GMT -5 Axis said:

It there a certain model Geek and what is the price ?

Has the DC-1 been out for longer than the Geek ?

What input and output are you using with the DC-1 ?

I have a Geek Pulse X Infinity. Price varies a lot based on how you buy it. DC-1 has been out far longer. I use both the USB input (from PC, via Tidal Masters) and the coax input from a Sonos Connect. When I use the XMC-1 as the preamp, I use XLR outs. When I use the tube amp as preamp, I use the RCA outs. Each sounds great.

Mark

Interesting. I like to see people checking out new gear and just like Boomzilla said with the new BasX gear, new can be good !

[klinemj]

Apr 2, 2017 13:07:23 GMT -5 garbulky said:

The Geek infinity DAC has a slightly different sound signature. It does bring lots of details, maybe a tad bit more than the DC-1. However I did not prefer the treble tone/coloration which felt artificial - slightly on the bright/electronic side of things.

The Gungnir multibit was one of the best DAC's I've auditioned though I ended up giving the hat tip to the DC-1 by a hair due to its resolution. But Gungnir's tone is definitely not like the Geek pulse .
So it may not fit the tone you like. If you are looking for a replacement for the Infnity, I suggest looking towards the Ygdrrassil instead for the (supposed) better resolution.

But keep in mind, the lack of a remote was a huge drawback for me. It may be for you too.

I found this a very useful thread as this guy actually auditioned a large number of DACs and compared it directly to the Ygdrassil.
The Holo Audio Spring DAC level 3 DAC seems to be about the same price as the Ygdrassil and so that looks like an interesting alternative to it.
www.head-fi.org/t/804153/life-after-yggdrasil

I have found the Geek to sound much more like live instruments than the DC-1 in my system. Reverting back has made this more clear to me. The DC-1 sound artificial on piano, horns, and acoustic string instruments. The Geek, on piano, sounds like my Dad is playing his concert grand right by me. It does come across as tone...a fullness of sound/detail vs. a surface sound/tone. I was just listening to Brubeck on the DC-1, and it did sound good...but not quite right. Digital is how I would describe it.

As far as remote, I am either using the remote for the PrimaLuna or a universal remote. So...non-factor.

And, thanks for the link!

Mark