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Post by Axis on Apr 2, 2017 13:42:30 GMT -5
So are we counting on then that the low-voltage analogue signals coming out of the DAC, wending their way through the pre-amplifier/processor and eventually out again to an amplifier are going through relatively intact? I guess if the Signal to Noise level of that path is really good there's no real issue. Or is everyone running their DACs directly to amplifiers in dedicated two-channel systems? Essentially, I'm trying to understand if I'm being naïve or worrying about inconsequential issues in thinking that I should keep a signal in the Digital Domain till the very last second before feeding it into an amplifier. Casey Maybe in the future we can climb in there and find out for ourselves. I wonder what it is like to be a person that has to figure all this stuff out to make it work. This digital stuff is never going to end in our lifetime. I have a feeling we will be putting atoms together to make are music and food.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Apr 2, 2017 13:44:56 GMT -5
So are we counting on then that the low-voltage analogue signals coming out of the DAC, wending their way through the pre-amplifier/processor and eventually out again to an amplifier are going through relatively intact? I guess if the Signal to Noise level of that path is really good there's no real issue. Or is everyone running their DACs directly to amplifiers in dedicated two-channel systems? Essentially, I'm trying to understand if I'm being naïve or worrying about inconsequential issues in thinking that I should keep a signal in the Digital Domain till the very last second before feeding it into an amplifier. Casey Don't take it wrong, but...I think you are worried about inconsequential issues. I agree there are risks, but there are also risks of running a digital in to a DAC/volume control/processor/amp combined unit...within unit interference/noise. The right solution is what sounds best to you. Mark
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Post by vcautokid on Apr 2, 2017 13:49:08 GMT -5
The Filters in a DAC allot make its personality. At least I noticed that.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 2, 2017 13:51:11 GMT -5
Oh, no worries at all: I fully acknowledge that I've been mulling this over with very little information. Hence, my questions.
So back to your original question of which DACs to try.
It sounds like the Schiit Yggdrasil will at least be on your list to evaluate.It'll be interesting seeing your notes on that.
Casey
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Post by klinemj on Apr 2, 2017 14:07:22 GMT -5
The Filters in a DAC allot make its personality. At least I noticed that. This is VERY true. The Geek has various filters one can choose from. And each is different. Yet, most of "the talk" is the chip. Some talk about "the implementation". Until I heard a single unit/chip with different filters, I had only a theoretical understanding. Now, I worry about the chip less and more about the implementation. Mark
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Post by klinemj on Apr 2, 2017 14:10:07 GMT -5
Oh, no worries at all: I fully acknowledge that I've been mulling this over with very little information. Hence, my questions. So back to your original question of which DACs to try. It sounds like the Schiit Yggdrasil will at least be on your list to evaluate.It'll be interesting seeing your notes on that. Casey The yggy is the top of my list, for sure! Mark
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 2, 2017 15:24:30 GMT -5
If you do try out both the Schiit Yggdrasil and the Teac NT-530 I would be especially interested in your thoughts. My friend loves his Teac but a lot of that is because it directly supports DSD, something that's not that important to me.
Casey
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Post by Axis on Apr 2, 2017 15:32:41 GMT -5
Oh, no worries at all: I fully acknowledge that I've been mulling this over with very little information. Hence, my questions. So back to your original question of which DACs to try. It sounds like the Schiit Yggdrasil will at least be on your list to evaluate.It'll be interesting seeing your notes on that. Casey The yggy is the top of my list, for sure! Mark Are you going to use this mainly with you big system and leave it on all the time. I trust what DYohn says about this and if you have the coin then move on it. I bet it sings but I am so tight with my money that I can wait for the next thing. It's coming.
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Post by klinemj on Apr 2, 2017 16:16:36 GMT -5
The yggy is the top of my list, for sure! Mark Are you going to use this mainly with you big system and leave it on all the time. I trust what DYohn says about this and if you have the coin then move on it. I bet it sings but I am so tight with my money that I can wait for the next thing. It's coming. If needed, I can leave it on. I do with my amps. Mark
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Post by jackfish on Apr 2, 2017 16:44:19 GMT -5
I am very satisfied with my Schiit Bifrost USB. May do the possible upgrades in the near future.
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Post by Soup on Apr 2, 2017 17:36:29 GMT -5
what about CHORD 2Qute or Hugo?
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Post by klinemj on Apr 2, 2017 19:31:32 GMT -5
what about CHORD 2Qute or Hugo? Interesting...ever heard one? Mark
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Post by KeithL on Apr 3, 2017 10:15:09 GMT -5
There are distinct differences in sound between DACs - and between filters on a DAC with multiple filter choices. (I was just comparing a DC-1 to a Wyred4Sound DAC2 last week.... the Wyred4Sound uses a Sabre 9018, and does NOT sound neutral, while the DC-1 sounds very neutral.) However, the differences are usually less than, for instance, the differences between how different speakers sound, or different rooms. (And whether those differences are audible does in fact depend on what you're playing them through and on your source material.) Personally, I find that the biggest thing that determines whether I'll notice those differences is the speakers. For a given pair of DACs, I might barely notice the difference on one pair of speakers, yet find it glaringly obvious on another. I find that the amplifier and preamp make much less difference (assuming both are neutral). So are we counting on then that the low-voltage analogue signals coming out of the DAC, wending their way through the pre-amplifier/processor and eventually out again to an amplifier are going through relatively intact? I guess if the Signal to Noise level of that path is really good there's no real issue. Or is everyone running their DACs directly to amplifiers in dedicated two-channel systems? Essentially, I'm trying to understand if I'm being naïve or worrying about inconsequential issues in thinking that I should keep a signal in the Digital Domain till the very last second before feeding it into an amplifier. Casey Don't take it wrong, but...I think you are worried about inconsequential issues. I agree there are risks, but there are also risks of running a digital in to a DAC/volume control/processor/amp combined unit...within unit interference/noise. The right solution is what sounds best to you. Mark
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Post by KeithL on Apr 3, 2017 10:30:43 GMT -5
The biggest distinction between digital and analog is relatively simple..... With an analog signal, the signal is open to change at every step along the way. If you're talking vinyl, those steps include: - the microphone - the microphone preamp - the mixing console - the cutting lathe - the vinyl itself - the playback cartridge and turntable - the phono preamp - the preamp - the amp - the speakers Every one of those steps is quite likely to alter the way the audio sounds, some of them quite significantly - and there's no way to either know how much they changed it, or to prevent them from doing so. With a digital signal, the signal goes from the mixing console to an analog-to-digital converter. And, at the other end, the digital signal is converted back to analog by a DAC (digital-to-analog converter). While it is still subject to change before the A/D and after the D/A, BETWEEN THOSE TWO POINTS it is relatively simple to ensure that the digital signal will NOT experience ANY change. I can take the output of that A/D converter, copy it to a disc, upload it, download it, bounce it off a satellite, record it on my phone, and do whatever else I want to do.... and, AS LONG AS I'VE BEEN CAREFUL TO AVOID CERTAIN WELL KNOWN PROCESSES (like resampling), it will remain EXACTLY the same. NOT "sort of"; NOT "more or less"; NOT "close". EXACTLY. NO CHANGE. NADA, ZIP, NIL.
The only complication is that the conversions at both ends must be done VERY carefully to minimize the changes that occur there - and even the best converters will introduce SOME change. To answer your question, YES, if you want to get the signal from point A to point B with the least alteration... They you're probably best keeping it digital as long as possible - converting it TO digital as soon as possible - and getting it as close to the amplifier before converting it back as possible. (But don't fall into the trap of assuming that, if you apply a digital tone control, or digital room correction, to that digital signal, you are somehow "changing it without altering it". Well designed digital tone controls and equalizers may act like "perfect" versions of their analog counterparts, but they still change the signal, and that's unavoidable.) So are we counting on then that the low-voltage analogue signals coming out of the DAC, wending their way through the pre-amplifier/processor and eventually out again to an amplifier are going through relatively intact? I guess if the Signal to Noise level of that path is really good there's no real issue. Or is everyone running their DACs directly to amplifiers in dedicated two-channel systems? Essentially, I'm trying to understand if I'm being naïve or worrying about inconsequential issues in thinking that I should keep a signal in the Digital Domain till the very last second before feeding it into an amplifier. Casey Maybe in the future we can climb in there and find out for ourselves. I wonder what it is like to be a person that has to figure all this stuff out to make it work. This digital stuff is never going to end in our lifetime. I have a feeling we will be putting atoms together to make are music and food.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 3, 2017 10:32:34 GMT -5
[[ Oops! I see we crossed in postings. I'll read your new note now and see if there's any value in my leaving this one up. — Casey ]]
[[ Okay, I think you've answered my question. I'll leave this here for archaeological purposes, but we can ignore it otherwise. — Casey ]]
So Keith, what's your take on the outboard DAC with the advantage of being able to mix-and-match with the rest of one's system, contrasted with having a low-voltage analogue signal wending it's way through a pre-amplifier/processor? Is the latter "concern" (of mine) much ado about nothing? I freely admit to not having done any kind of extensive listening tests on this. I was just thinking about it from first principals.
Casey
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Post by Axis on Apr 3, 2017 11:40:58 GMT -5
The biggest distinction between digital and analog is relatively simple..... With an analog signal, the signal is open to change at every step along the way. If you're talking vinyl, those steps include: - the microphone - the microphone preamp - the mixing console - the cutting lathe - the vinyl itself - the playback cartridge and turntable - the phono preamp - the preamp - the amp - the speakers Every one of those steps is quite likely to alter the way the audio sounds, some of them quite significantly - and there's no way to either know how much they changed it, or to prevent them from doing so. With a digital signal, the signal goes from the mixing console to an analog-to-digital converter. And, at the other end, the digital signal is converted back to analog by a DAC (digital-to-analog converter). While it is still subject to change before the A/D and after the D/A, BETWEEN THOSE TWO POINTS it is relatively simple to ensure that the digital signal will NOT experience ANY change. I can take the output of that A/D converter, copy it to a disc, upload it, download it, bounce it off a satellite, record it on my phone, and do whatever else I want to do.... and, AS LONG AS I'VE BEEN CAREFUL TO AVOID CERTAIN WELL KNOWN PROCESSES (like resampling), it will remain EXACTLY the same. NOT "sort of"; NOT "more or less"; NOT "close". EXACTLY. NO CHANGE. NADA, ZIP, NIL.
The only complication is that the conversions at both ends must be done VERY carefully to minimize the changes that occur there - and even the best converters will introduce SOME change. To answer your question, YES, if you want to get the signal from point A to point B with the least alteration... They you're probably best keeping it digital as long as possible - converting it TO digital as soon as possible - and getting it as close to the amplifier before converting it back as possible. (But don't fall into the trap of assuming that, if you apply a digital tone control, or digital room correction, to that digital signal, you are somehow "changing it without altering it". Well designed digital tone controls and equalizers may act like "perfect" versions of their analog counterparts, but they still change the signal, and that's unavoidable.) Maybe in the future we can climb in there and find out for ourselves. I wonder what it is like to be a person that has to figure all this stuff out to make it work. This digital stuff is never going to end in our lifetime. I have a feeling we will be putting atoms together to make are music and food. Thank you Keith, I was being silly and your one of those that really knows the answer to these things. Come on tell us a little something you have in the plans for Digital. You guys been keeping your skunk works under wraps and I know you guys are doing something with Digital.
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Post by klinemj on Apr 3, 2017 17:26:23 GMT -5
If you do try out both the Schiit Yggdrasil and the Teac NT-530 I would be especially interested in your thoughts. My friend loves his Teac but a lot of that is because it directly supports DSD, something that's not that important to me. Casey I looked up the TEAC today, and it doesn't have very good reviews for sound quality. Good plugs for others aspects, but - not of interest to me. I am looking for sound. The Yggy...has my attention. Mark
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Post by sheetmetalworker on Apr 3, 2017 17:31:13 GMT -5
Hi Mark I'm also interested in the Holo audio spring DAC. I've already purchased but have not yet received my yiggy. It's been a month and still no shipping confirmation.
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Post by klinemj on Apr 3, 2017 17:32:46 GMT -5
I would suggest you also look at MHDT Labs. their DACs are very nice and the most musical I have heard I really love their sound. I own two, first the MHDT Havana and just recently I bought an MHDT Balanced Stockhholm. I still own and love both. These are NOS (non oversampling) tube DACs my experience with them is one of the best musical changes I've made in my system. The best I remember of vinyl and the best of digital combined and the best music my system has ever made. I have played with a few different tubes and found nice favorite which is the vintage Western Electric JW 2C51 396A, it's fun to play wit a little tube rolling tough the original tubes sound very nice as well. I have considered both the Schiit Gungnir Multibit and the Schiit Yggdrasil I have not heard them but I do hope to sometime, I am not too far from the new Schiit retail store . But with lots of research I think the MHDT are probably a better more musical fit in my system and speakers. I think Schitt are more analytical and less musical from my research. The MHDT have exceptional detail yet are so musical not analytical at all, very musical and the most realistic voices and instruments as well, the MHDT adds a warmth yet the most detailed sound to my system. Here are pics of an MHDT Balanced Stockholm. Sounds very interesting...I would love to hear one. Have you had to use customer service yet in any way? What was it like? Mark
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Post by sheetmetalworker on Apr 3, 2017 17:34:44 GMT -5
Schitt customer service thru email has been on target.
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