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Post by Boomzilla on May 25, 2018 6:20:18 GMT -5
I've had occasional familiarity a variety of other room correction systems including:
Lyngdorf RoomPerfect
Audyssey (multiple flavors)
EMO-Q
TacT
...But I've never heard DIRAC. How is DIRAC different from these other systems? Does DIRAC correct the entire frequency spectrum or only the bass? In your opinions, is DIRAC superior to the other options?
My experience with the other room correction systems has been mostly a yawn. Either the systems made the sound worse, or at best made what I eventually decided was only slightly better. The Lyngdorf system made the biggest improvement, but their funky-sounding Class D power amp in the (integrated amplifier) device negated the improvements made by the correction system.
The reason I ask is that I've got an Arcam AVR550 on the way, and it's equipped with some ("lite?") flavor of DIRAC. What should I expect from it and what should I not?
Thanks - Boomzilla
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Post by 405x5 on May 25, 2018 8:54:18 GMT -5
I wish I could help.
I’ve had Dirac since 2014, via the XMC1.
Never used it.
My ears do the corrections and my particular room presentes few challenges that cannot be handled manually.
There is also a contradiction in my view, between the speakers I use that are designed to perform within rather specific floor/wall intersection measurements, and what MAY occur When automation is tossed into the mix.
That doesn’t mean I won’t eventually give it a shot.
So many threads have come and gone talking about unsatisfactory results with automated room correction, especially with the bass.
Bill
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on May 25, 2018 8:58:22 GMT -5
No room correction system can compensate for a bad room or for bad speakers. But they all do a credible job within their setup and software limitations. My suggestion with your new AVR is to run it and see. Do an A/B after you've allowed it to go through it's complete setup cycle - assuming that processor has the ability to turn it on and off, that is.
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Post by creimes on May 25, 2018 9:45:25 GMT -5
To my ears in my room with my setup my system has never sounded as good as it did with my once owned XMC and Dirac Full, IMO opinion it did a great job for both surround formats and 2ch music. My now owned Anthem MRX310 with ARC is really good as well but unfortunately I cannot A/B them, but I do remember switching back and forth between Dirac and no Dirac with music playing that I know really well and Dirac turned on won hands down and that's in my acoustically treated room. One thing to mention on what it sounded like to me is when Dirac was on it sounded more neutral but one would have to assume that is what its meant to do haha, it did take a bit of time to get used to, but also I found it opened up the presentation more like I could hear more of what was playing which I would also assume that's what it is meant to do flattening frequencies and such but give yourself time to listen and get used to it, for me it sounded more flat but also like I mentioned more open but that's what happens when you straighten those curves  Chad |
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Post by fbczar on May 25, 2018 10:26:23 GMT -5
I've had occasional familiarity a variety of other room correction systems including: Lyngdorf RoomPerfect Audyssey (multiple flavors) EMO-Q TacT ...But I've never heard DIRAC. How is DIRAC different from these other systems? Does DIRAC correct the entire frequency spectrum or only the bass? In your opinions, is DIRAC superior to the other options? My experience with the other room correction systems has been mostly a yawn. Either the systems made the sound worse, or at best made what I eventually decided was only slightly better. The Lyngdorf system made the biggest improvement, but their funky-sounding Class D power amp in the (integrated amplifier) device negated the improvements made by the correction system. The reason I ask is that I've got an Arcam AVR550 on the way, and it's equipped with some ("lite?") flavor of DIRAC. What should I expect from it and what should I not? Thanks - Boomzilla Boom, Dirac Full can work very well if you know how to use it. Obviously measuring correctly is key, but so is designing a custom room curve properly. I use an XMC-1 with Audirvana for music and Dirac does a nice job with it. The same is true of movies. I found it to work particularly well with my two subwoofers in stereo mode. The XMC-1 only allows for one Dirac preset which is really unfortunate. Basically, I optimize the room curve for music and boost the bass a few DB for movies manually with my XMC-1 remote. It is an acceptable compromise, but still... I find it is best to measure with a small microphone placement pattern that creates a 3'x3'x3' box pattern. Afterall, there can be only one best listening position. Dirac is capable of correcting the full spectrum, but you can choose to limit the frequencies it effects. Dirac is much more effective eliminating peaks than boosting dips in the frequency range. Therefore, it is best to design a room curve that pulls down the peaks. Even so, it is possible to boost dips so you have to play with it to reach the best compromise. It is also possible to correct according to the intended voicing of your speakers. I have found it to do a nice job with SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference). This can be a very big deal in cases where room treatments cannot get the job done. Anyway, I find Dirac to improve the sound of the XMC-1 in most cases. In my room is is easily heard. I suppose the more nearly perfect your room is the less effect Dirac will have, but it works well in my experience. |
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Post by melm on May 25, 2018 10:45:01 GMT -5
Dirac worked extremely well in my irregular room with Maggie MGIIIr's. Setup was a bit of a pain because my parrot kept squawking when the tones triggered. Such is life. Switching back and forth on movies and music (classical and jazz mainly) I always choose the Dirac curves. It doesn't work miracles, but the humps in the room were flattened and directionality was improved dramatically using both stereo and surround sources. I used it with a single sub, and it seemed to tighten the low end.
mel
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 25, 2018 12:09:34 GMT -5
I have experience with Dirac, Emo-Q, and the version of Audyssey that came with my Denon 3806. I never liked the sonic results of Emo-Q or the old Audyssey, but I instantly liked the results of Dirac for multichannel. Sounds were clearer overall. For 2-channel, I prefer to avoid the DAC in the XMC-1 and use my own DAC (the Geek). I like that sound better overall for 2-channel than Dirac through the XMC-1's DAC.
And, it does correct for the full frequency spectrum and in the time domain also. DIRAC is different in that it corrects in the frequency and time domain (newer versions of Audyssey also correct in the time domain but Dirac claims theirs is better...of course...) and if you get the full version - you can modify the target curve to your liking, set curtains, and use your own custom-caibrated mic.
Mark
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Post by Boomzilla on May 25, 2018 12:31:43 GMT -5
Thanks, gents. I'm not sure that the Arcam AVR will run the full version of DIRAC. But I'll find out.
And I appreciate the feedback greatly.
Cordially - Boom
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Post by garbulky on May 25, 2018 13:11:57 GMT -5
...But I've never heard DIRAC. The XMC-1 you heard at Novisnick's with me used DIRAC full. He turned Dirac on and off for us to compare. Granted that was a long time ago. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on May 25, 2018 13:23:27 GMT -5
Thanks, gents. I'm not sure that the Arcam AVR will run the full version of DIRAC. But I'll find out. And I appreciate the feedback greatly. Cordially - Boom Their website says it includes Dirac Live (whatever that is.) |
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on May 25, 2018 14:10:41 GMT -5
...But I've never heard DIRAC. The XMC-1 you heard at Novisnick's with me used DIRAC full. He turned Dirac on and off for us to compare. Granted that was a long time ago. True! That memory is long since forgotten im sure. |
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Post by wilburthegoose on May 25, 2018 20:28:41 GMT -5
In my personal experience, Dirac is much better than Audyssey. To me, it sounds a lot better.
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Post by Bonzo on May 25, 2018 21:38:17 GMT -5
The XMC-1 you heard at Novisnick's with me used DIRAC full. He turned Dirac on and off for us to compare. Granted that was a long time ago. True! That memory is long since forgotten im sure. Yet Boom still often talks about remembering exactly how some speaker he heard 6 months ago, 1 year ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, and even 15 years ago sounded. Sorry Boom. No way. Just like your claim you've only wasted about $1000 over the years with your thriftful buying and selling of components and discs etc. I say, um, impossible. I find you to be a very honest man, except when it comes to yourself. You change like the wind. But unless you are Data of Star Trek or a Vulcan, or maybe C-3PO, not a chance in hell you remember the sounds you say you do. As for the money part, what ever floats your boat man. Spend it how you want, and think of it how you want. Not my business. You are happy and in the end that's ALL that matters. |
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Post by garbulky on May 25, 2018 22:31:37 GMT -5
What do you say about remembering Audio is interesting. There is talk of auditory memory being only a few seconds Long. I don’t think that’s the case of at all. I do remember to a good extend the sounds of different systems over the years or at least the particular signature or the thing that stands out to me. And I like to believe that I can realistically compare speakers even long after I’ve heard them. With bzilla, I can prove it to myself because he’s bought the same component sometimes up to four times over. and I recognize the particular Audio signature of that component even when put with different equipment and speakers.
I still remember vividly the experience with Dirac and of the XMC1 and also listening to novice nicks Rega turntable. Probably the most vivid Audio memory I have is with Bzillas heat kit tube mono blocks. Good memories with good friends.
I think for Bzilla it’s all about trying different flavors of sound. Not so much pursuit of a single minded end result. His biggest virtue is that he is able to appreciate more objectively the strains of different components. I am much less forgiving. If I find one thing off about a component, it’s very hard for me to find the positive. Undoubtedly, I believe that I am one of those people that listen more to the equipment then the music For better or for worse.
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Post by Boomzilla on May 26, 2018 11:09:53 GMT -5
Yet Boom still often talks about remembering exactly how some speaker he heard 6 months ago, 1 year ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, and even 15 years ago sounded. Sorry Boom. No way. Just like your claim you've only wasted about $1000 over the years with your thriftful buying and selling of components and discs etc. I say, um, impossible. I find you to be a very honest man, except when it comes to yourself. You change like the wind. But unless you are Data of Star Trek or a Vulcan, or maybe C-3PO, not a chance in hell you remember the sounds you say you do. As for the money part, what ever floats your boat man. Spend it how you want, and think of it how you want. Not my business. You are happy and in the end that's ALL that matters. No audio memory? I call BS. If that were true, you wouldn't have remembered what your mom's voice sounded like when she called you to dinner after an afternoon of playing with your chums. If there were no audio memory, you'd stand in the middle of the street and get run over while you tried to figure out what that loud sound was (it's a truck horn, moron). Audio memory is a vital and important skill in survival. We remember sounds. We remember them perfectly and in fine detail. Do all the testing you want. If the test says that humans can't remember sounds, then we're testing the wrong thing, or the test itself is flawed. I'll never forget the first cry my daughter made. And even though she's been dead for decades, I'll never forget my mom's (or my dad's) voices. I can tell when music is live or recorded (and from a city block away over a cacophony of street noise). You can too. So NEVER try to BS me about how we can't remember sounds. That's just wrong. Period. As to money, our greatest fear is that when we die, our wives will sell our gear for what we told them we paid for it! LOL |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 26, 2018 12:13:05 GMT -5
My audio memory is perfect, IIRC.  Mark |
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Post by creimes on May 26, 2018 12:42:05 GMT -5
Yet Boom still often talks about remembering exactly how some speaker he heard 6 months ago, 1 year ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, and even 15 years ago sounded. Sorry Boom. No way. Just like your claim you've only wasted about $1000 over the years with your thriftful buying and selling of components and discs etc. I say, um, impossible. I find you to be a very honest man, except when it comes to yourself. You change like the wind. But unless you are Data of Star Trek or a Vulcan, or maybe C-3PO, not a chance in hell you remember the sounds you say you do. As for the money part, what ever floats your boat man. Spend it how you want, and think of it how you want. Not my business. You are happy and in the end that's ALL that matters. No audio memory? I call BS. If that were true, you wouldn't have remembered what your mom's voice sounded like when she called you to dinner after an afternoon of playing with your chums. If there were no audio memory, you'd stand in the middle of the street and get run over while you tried to figure out what that loud sound was (it's a truck horn, moron). Audio memory is a vital and important skill in survival. We remember sounds. We remember them perfectly and in fine detail. Do all the testing you want. If the test says that humans can't remember sounds, then we're testing the wrong thing, or the test itself is flawed. I'll never forget the first cry my daughter made. And even though she's been dead for decades, I'll never forget my mom's (or my dad's) voices. I can tell when music is live or recorded (and from a city block away over a cacophony of street noise). You can too. So NEVER try to BS me about how we can't remember sounds. That's just wrong. Period. As to money, our greatest fear is that when we die, our wives will sell our gear for what we told them we paid for it! LOL All I know is won't remember what I just read here as I didn't hear it I just read it and my memory ain't for sh**  |
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Post by Bonzo on May 26, 2018 13:38:59 GMT -5
Yet Boom still often talks about remembering exactly how some speaker he heard 6 months ago, 1 year ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, and even 15 years ago sounded. Sorry Boom. No way. Just like your claim you've only wasted about $1000 over the years with your thriftful buying and selling of components and discs etc. I say, um, impossible. I find you to be a very honest man, except when it comes to yourself. You change like the wind. But unless you are Data of Star Trek or a Vulcan, or maybe C-3PO, not a chance in hell you remember the sounds you say you do. As for the money part, what ever floats your boat man. Spend it how you want, and think of it how you want. Not my business. You are happy and in the end that's ALL that matters. No audio memory? I call BS. If that were true, you wouldn't have remembered what your mom's voice sounded like when she called you to dinner after an afternoon of playing with your chums. If there were no audio memory, you'd stand in the middle of the street and get run over while you tried to figure out what that loud sound was (it's a truck horn, moron). Audio memory is a vital and important skill in survival. We remember sounds. We remember them perfectly and in fine detail. Do all the testing you want. If the test says that humans can't remember sounds, then we're testing the wrong thing, or the test itself is flawed. I'll never forget the first cry my daughter made. And even though she's been dead for decades, I'll never forget my mom's (or my dad's) voices. I can tell when music is live or recorded (and from a city block away over a cacophony of street noise). You can too. So NEVER try to BS me about how we can't remember sounds. That's just wrong. Period. As to money, our greatest fear is that when we die, our wives will sell our gear for what we told them we paid for it! LOL I didn't say people don't have audio memory. Of course we do. But there is a HUGE difference between remembering your Mom's voice and distinguishing the timber of speakers through years of time. I'm not talking about a live sound or what have you. You might remember that you liked or disliked a particular speaker for one reason or another, but to compare speakers you have today vs some you listened to 10 years ago and make direct comparisons in timber and particular frequencies and such like you do, no way. I don't buy it. But ya know, it really doesn't matter does it. At least not to me it doesn't. If you wanna believe you can, have at it. |
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Post by Boomzilla on May 26, 2018 14:03:44 GMT -5
Hi Bonzo - General statements (not specifically apropos to any current conversation) - 1. There is TREMENDOUS variation in human memory - Some individuals have demonstrated their abilities to retain information that "the average person" would have no chance of remembering. 2. There is TREMENDOUS variation in human audio-memory - Again, some individuals repeatedly ace those tests showing that on average, people remember sounds for mere seconds. Now with that said, I'd have to agree that one probably can't remember the sound of speakers from 10 years ago well enough to compare them with current speakers except in the broadest terms. Why? a) the rooms are different - And considering the room's contribution to the reproduction of audio, even if your audio-memory is perfect, you're comparing apples to oranges. b) the playback systems are different - No matter how good a phonograph you had in the 1970s, it just isn't the same as streaming the same content through a DAC and playing it. c) your ears are different - Presbyacusis affects us all to differing degrees. But in broad strokes, one should be able to remember "better" or "worse" compared to a system heard 10 years ago - And if so motivated, one would also probably recall what the decade-old system did better or worse than the current one. So if you wanna disbelieve, you can; have at it! |
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Post by Bonzo on May 26, 2018 14:39:48 GMT -5
Hi Bonzo - General statements (not specifically apropos to any current conversation) - 1. There is TREMENDOUS variation in human memory - Some individuals have demonstrated their abilities to retain information that "the average person" would have no chance of remembering. 2. There is TREMENDOUS variation in human audio-memory - Again, some individuals repeatedly ace those tests showing that on average, people remember sounds for mere seconds. Now with that said, I'd have to agree that one probably can't remember the sound of speakers from 10 years ago well enough to compare them with current speakers except in the broadest terms. Why? a) the rooms are different - And considering the room's contribution to the reproduction of audio, even if your audio-memory is perfect, you're comparing apples to oranges. b) the playback systems are different - No matter how good a phonograph you had in the 1970s, it just isn't the same as streaming the same content through a DAC and playing it. c) your ears are different - Presbyacusis affects us all to differing degrees. But in broad strokes, one should be able to remember "better" or "worse" compared to a system heard 10 years ago - And if so motivated, one would also probably recall what the decade-old system did better or worse than the current one. So if you wanna disbelieve, you can; have at it! You make some very good points here. And while I was in the shower I gave it some more thought in a different light, and will say that I conceed to a lot of what you are saying. Especially in terms of memory and people skills. First, yes boom, I was thinking about you while naked in the shower. 🤣 But what I got to thinking about is something you couldn't care less about, and that's cars, and more particularly, the way they sound. Example 1. My Dad could pick out engines just by hearing them. He could even distinguish model years by the way the engine sounded. When we used to go to tractor pulls my Dad could predict with very high percentage what each tractor was going to do just by the sound of the engine. Example 2. I KNOW what Lamborghinis sound like. My wife can vouch for me. On 3 separate occassions, I have told her there is a Lamborghini behind us, or coming down the street. One time it was on our patio that has a tall fence. I heard it from way down the street and said what's a Lamborghini doing in our neighborhood. She was like, how can you tell? I didn't know, but there it was, a black Gallardo going past us a few seconds later. The 2 other times were at outdoor seating restuarants. The first time ended up being a yellow Diablo. The second in Miamisburg was a blue one. What I can tell is its a Lamborghini. I just know that sound. What I can't tell you is what model it is, or what year it is. So I must concede that it is certainly possible you have physical abilites I do not. Or since you have very specific interests in all things audio that don't align with mine, that you know and remember particular details that either don't matter to me, or I can't distinguish with any regularity. It's also quite possible that you take notes during your serious sessions and it helps keep things around a lot longer? So in other words, I think my previous posts were a bit hasty and one noted, lacking a completion of thought and evidence. I therefore apologize if I offended you in any way. Have a great holiday weekend. Cheers - Bonzo |
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