Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 19, 2019 13:00:04 GMT -5
No, and that applies to all gear not just the RMC-1. The term Reference Level is an arbitrary figure by nature. That is to say Reference is just that, a reference point to use to match other things to that value. If there was an industry standard then it would be clearly stated as Absolute Level rather then reference and the criteria for meeting an absolute level would be clearly stated as in all processors would have X volts at full scale, all amplifiers would be fixed at XX db of gain and all speakers would be made to produce XXdb at 1 watt. So Reference Level is what you want it to be for your system. As this applies to Auto Room correction, the system needs a set reference for it to properly calibrate and match gear, but that level is chosen by the engineers that design the system, not an industry standard. Hope this helps. Lonnie Thanks for the clarification, but what will DIRAC use for reference? Dirac does not have a set reference point. It allows you to set the mic gain. So you pick a level that suits you and adjust the mic gain for that level. It then takes that as the reference point and matches the system to that. Hope this helps. Lonnie
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Post by Geronimo on Jul 19, 2019 13:01:14 GMT -5
On to some good news......Menu system is so much more responsive.
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Post by lrobertson on Jul 19, 2019 13:10:30 GMT -5
Great to hear about DTS:X Pro. It would be great to see any information on speaker placements that would allow us to utilize the extra channels of the RMC that are unique to DTS. I’d rather prioritize DTS with some of those extra speakers over Dolby with Dolby’s lack of a neural x type of integration. I don’t know if there are any public resources on what we can expect for something like the RMC with its 20-28 channel options. My room is about at the stage of installing and mounting speakers.
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richb
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Post by richb on Jul 19, 2019 13:26:39 GMT -5
I think the confusion is the THX Reference is for the recording level not the volume control display.
The 0dB signal is not a reference to the volume display on the processor. It is true that some like to align them but in reality, most find 85dB reference level to be too loud.
- Rich
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 19, 2019 13:41:33 GMT -5
I think the confusion is the THX Reference is for the recording level not the volume control display. The 0dB signal is not a reference to the volume display on the processor. It is true that some like to align them but in reality, most find 85dB reference level to be too loud. - Rich Yes! Just like my referral to using xx dB without stating what you are measuring (like dBA SPL), saying “Reference Level” all by itself is ... unclear (to avoid meaningless). The link LCSeminole posted discusses “THX Reference Level”, which may be what is desirable to some. emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/998705/thread
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Post by SOWK on Jul 19, 2019 13:49:59 GMT -5
Great to hear about DTS:X Pro. It would be great to see any information on speaker placements that would allow us to utilize the extra channels of the RMC that are unique to DTS. I’d rather prioritize DTS with some of those extra speakers over Dolby with Dolby’s lack of a neural x type of integration. I don’t know if there are any public resources on what we can expect for something like the RMC with its 20-28 channel options. My room is about at the stage of installing and mounting speakers. Plan a VOG (Voice of God) channel as I will annoy Emotiva into making it happen.
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Post by audiovideojunky on Jul 19, 2019 13:54:44 GMT -5
But far more anoying is the excessive bass droning I experience after recalibrating to the "new and improved" settings. I calibrated my subs to match my other speakers but it took an aditional trim of -6 to make the bass seem "right." I experienced a similar issue. After upgrading to 1.4, I noticed a tremendous boost in subwoofer bass. I entered calibration mode and took db measurements for all speakers AND SUBS, and they measured at basically the same level. So the RMC, when using the test tone, shows them all as calibrated. However when I listen to music or movies (e.g. sources other than the test tone), the subs are around 10db hot. I manually turned down the subs (using the sub's local volume control) 10db before they sounded normal again. Seems I'm either making a calibration error (I seem to recall needing to measure subwoofer test tones with a different weighting factor on the DB meter, which I didn't do last night?), or something else is amiss. I can live with turning down the subs, but it would be nice to understand what is going on with the calibration. Thoughts?
On a VERY positive note, this release is FAR more responsive; both to commands and to changes in signals. And after turning down the subs, the unit sounded (and looked) fantastic. Also, I haven't experienced ANY audio dropouts, which used to happen repeatedly on all my sources at ~8 minute intervals. I'M THRILLED!!! NICELY DONE EMOTIVA!!!
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Post by richter250 on Jul 19, 2019 14:13:45 GMT -5
But far more anoying is the excessive bass droning I experience after recalibrating to the "new and improved" settings. I calibrated my subs to match my other speakers but it took an aditional trim of -6 to make the bass seem "right." I experienced a similar issue. After upgrading to 1.4, I noticed a tremendous boost in subwoofer bass. I entered calibration mode and took db measurements for all speakers AND SUBS, and they measured at basically the same level. So the RMC, when using the test tone, shows them all as calibrated. However when I listen to music or movies (e.g. sources other than the test tone), the subs are around 10db hot. I manually turned down the subs (using the sub's local volume control) 10db before they sounded normal again. Seems I'm either making a calibration error (I seem to recall needing to measure subwoofer test tones with a different weighting factor on the DB meter, which I didn't do last night?), or something else is amiss. I can live with turning down the subs, but it would be nice to understand what is going on with the calibration. Thoughts?
On a VERY positive note, this release is FAR more responsive; both to commands and to changes in signals. And after turning down the subs, the unit sounded (and looked) fantastic. Also, I haven't experienced ANY audio dropouts, which used to happen repeatedly on all my sources at ~8 minute intervals. I'M THRILLED!!! NICELY DONE EMOTIVA!!!
This is exactly my experience. Sub is about 10 db hot when playing music or movies after calibration with the test tones. Not sure what is causing this but something is slightly amiss. I just turn the sub down. This is also my experience with the many significant improvements in the firmware. The unit is handling anything I throw at it without any difficulties whatsoever! Everything is smoother and faster.
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 19, 2019 14:41:37 GMT -5
The sub test tone should be at the same level as the other test tones, but I will certainly look into this to see if its to hot.
Lonnie
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Post by lrobertson on Jul 19, 2019 14:49:58 GMT -5
Great to hear about DTS:X Pro. It would be great to see any information on speaker placements that would allow us to utilize the extra channels of the RMC that are unique to DTS. I’d rather prioritize DTS with some of those extra speakers over Dolby with Dolby’s lack of a neural x type of integration. I don’t know if there are any public resources on what we can expect for something like the RMC with its 20-28 channel options. My room is about at the stage of installing and mounting speakers. Plan a VOG (Voice of God) channel as I will annoy Emotiva into making it happen. I think VOG is a identifiable object like when they apply voice to the center channel. I don’t think VOG is comparable because VOG as a dedicated speaker is for only Auro I thought. I could be wrong but at least DTS:X Pro does have speaker placements for center upper screen height, center front height, and center top height so while it might not be defined as VOG speakers maybe the mixer has the option of utilizing any of them as such. I heard the Imax enhanced DTS mix just images the center height in between the front heights of standard 7.1.4 rooms.
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Post by Geronimo on Jul 19, 2019 14:54:35 GMT -5
The sub test tone should be at the same level as the other test tones, but I will certainly look into this to see if its to hot. Lonnie Great. Please do.
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Post by bolle on Jul 19, 2019 15:34:26 GMT -5
Sounds to me like someone confused LFE and sub and applied the +10dB LFE boost to everything that goes to the sub channel in the code...
Just a wild guess. :-)
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 19, 2019 15:45:54 GMT -5
Sounds to me like someone confused LFE and sub and applied the +10dB LFE boost to everything that goes to the sub channel in the code... Just a wild guess. :-) It might be helpful for those having ‘hot subs’ to list how their subs are configured — stereo, dual mono, mono, crossover point, level — anything that could help track down the problem. On another note, maybe we need in ‘pin up’ area in the green room where those who think their subs are so ‘hot’ to show them off.
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 19, 2019 15:56:13 GMT -5
Sounds to me like someone confused LFE and sub and applied the +10dB LFE boost to everything that goes to the sub channel in the code... Just a wild guess. :-) It might be helpful for those having ‘hot subs’ to list how their subs are configured — stereo, dual mono, mono, crossover point, level — anything that could help track down the problem. On another note, maybe we need in ‘pin up’ area in the green room where those who think their subs are so ‘hot’ to show them off. The test tones are internally generated so it will be pretty easy to run through the different combinations. If the subs turn out to be hot then its probably nothing more then a register value that needs to be reset. Lonnie
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Post by SteveH on Jul 19, 2019 17:28:07 GMT -5
But far more anoying is the excessive bass droning I experience after recalibrating to the "new and improved" settings. I calibrated my subs to match my other speakers but it took an aditional trim of -6 to make the bass seem "right." I experienced a similar issue. After upgrading to 1.4, I noticed a tremendous boost in subwoofer bass. I entered calibration mode and took db measurements for all speakers AND SUBS, and they measured at basically the same level. So the RMC, when using the test tone, shows them all as calibrated. However when I listen to music or movies (e.g. sources other than the test tone), the subs are around 10db hot. I manually turned down the subs (using the sub's local volume control) 10db before they sounded normal again. I have two Airmotiv S10s and had to turn down the volume as well, about 8dB. I am okay with that, because so far so good with the update.
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Post by brbecker on Jul 19, 2019 17:51:26 GMT -5
Applied 1.4 update and yes sub is noticeably louder.
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Post by foggy1956 on Jul 19, 2019 18:28:52 GMT -5
I always assumed that the 75dB is really just a lower test tone that is used to balance your speakers. The notion of some volume level being reference has (IMO) always been odd. There a vastly different speakers and amplifiers (with different gain structures) as well as distance and room size all factoring in. For what purpose, to achieve 0, who cares. It is usually better to subtract than add with some preamps that will run out of gain. That should not be a problem with the RMC-1, of course, but performance specifications would be nice At one time, I would have had to apply -20 to get reference levels and what about those with 108 dB/watt horns? My recommendation is to keep the trims near zero, reserving the headroom for REQ/PEQ and don't worry about the front panel volume number. Volume settings can determined using test material to get the THX or any other volume reference number. - Rich 75dB at VOLUME 0 is the industry standard.I have to pump up the RMC-1 to PLUS 4 - 5.5 on each channel. I never had that problem before Using an calibrated SPL meter, and the internal test tones, shows the volume output has decreased exactly 10 decibels at REFERENCE for me.... Doesn't make sense because my levels have to be increased accordingly, and I'm going to be in the positive (plus sign} levels. I've never had that in any system, or the many previous processors......... I had a chance to recheck my SPL measurements yet again, and this time compared FIRMWARE 1.4 to 1.3A. Using the internal test tones from the RMC-1, and a Cross Spectrum Labs calibrated UMIK-1. I have come to the conclusion that all channels are 10db less EXCEPT the SUB-WOOFER channel Lonnie, you said lowered channel volume level is normal operation, but I cannot figure out how, and why, because I have a 200W per channel amp, and I'm only running KEF LS50 in a small living room. I have to increase the gain so much in the positive (gain) in the levels menu to get them to the appropriate 75db. I have never had this problem before. I have had over 5 different amps, and many processors/receivers including DENON, MARANTZ, YAMAHA, PIONEER ELITE, Emotiva, D-Sonic, Wyred4Sound, Parasound A51....etc...... Before this beta firmware, all the channel level numbers made sense. Also, the "Center Subwoofer" channel was spot on 75db on all firmware including 1.3a before this beta firmware, and it is the only channel that maintained 75db on this latest beta firmware while the rest were lowered. I believe this is an error, or an oversight Please have your engineers double and triple check the levels! I'm including pictures WHICH INDUSTRY?😎
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Post by hsamwel on Jul 19, 2019 18:41:33 GMT -5
I had problems with the test tones in 1.3 already. I have used two Marantz receivers and two Pioneer receivers. Also with external amplification. Three different speakers. I have always got about -5 to +2 from setting volume knob at 0db and measuring internal test tones at 75db. After installing RMC and starting the 75db test tone I got crazy high volumes and could not get it near 75db even with -12db speaker level setting. I have quite normal speakers with 88db sensitivity. About 11 feet (3.3m) distance. No difference when I had more efficient speakers either, my prevoius was speced at 94db. Still quite easily around -5 to 0db when set to 75db.
I ended up using the 65db test tone and had to set the volume at below 0db to get 75db output for main speakers.
I will try this again when I get home and do the firmware update.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 19, 2019 19:13:16 GMT -5
Applied 1.4 update and yes sub is noticeably louder. Sounds like we need a quick follow up 1.4B for less bass!
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jul 19, 2019 19:21:18 GMT -5
Applied 1.4 update and yes sub is noticeably louder. Sounds like we need a quick follow up 1.4B for less bass! Am I missing something here, or is this not something that can be rectified by turning down the gain on the subwoofers plate amp? My SVS subs gain scale ranges from -100 to 0 dB, so in my case unless I was already at -90, then taming the gain down by 10db shouldn’t be a problem.
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