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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2019 19:30:44 GMT -5
The gain on my sub's "plate amp" is already at about a 3 on a 1-10 scale so nope...
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 19, 2019 19:40:00 GMT -5
Sounds like we need a quick follow up 1.4B for less bass! Am I missing something here, or is this not something that can be rectified by turning down the gain on the subwoofers plate amp? My SVS subs gain scale ranges from -100 to 0 dB, so in my case unless I was already at -90, then taming the gain down by 10db shouldn’t be a problem. I guess the question would be, Which version is right? We seem to have agreement that 1.4 has more bass than 1.3.
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jul 19, 2019 19:41:05 GMT -5
The gain on my sub's "plate amp" is already at about a 3 on a 1-10 scale so nope... If turning yours to “2” is equivalent to 10db, your situation is borderline with just the plate amp gain, but maybe a half turn and an adjustment in the speaker level settings?, at least until Lonnie can check the value in the register and get it changed.
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jul 19, 2019 19:46:41 GMT -5
Am I missing something here, or is this not something that can be rectified by turning down the gain on the subwoofers plate amp? My SVS subs gain scale ranges from -100 to 0 dB, so in my case unless I was already at -90, then taming the gain down by 10db shouldn’t be a problem. I guess the question would be, Which version is right? We seem to have agreement that 1.4 has more bass than 1.3. No question at this point since several owners are reporting this, in my case this would be a minor adjustment and preferred. Though giving Brucelee’s situation, I can see why he needs a code fix.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2019 19:47:52 GMT -5
Sadly, if i breathe on my amps' gain setting I can get jumps of +/- 2-3 db (and with two identical subs trying to get the same "gain" on both is tricky). I already lowered the gain to ensure that the sub's auto turn on mode recieved a stronger signal from the RMC-1... I guess I should be careful what I wish for.
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jul 19, 2019 19:51:56 GMT -5
This big step forward with v1.4 has me seriously thinking of going with an RMC-1 soon, like next week soon! . If I knew Dirac would be on-board within a month, I’d be calling Monday morning.
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jul 19, 2019 19:57:39 GMT -5
Sadly, if i breathe on my amps' gain setting I can get jumps of +/- 2-3 db (and with two identical subs trying to get the same "gain" on both is tricky). I already lowered the gain to ensure that the sub's auto turn on mode recieved a stronger signal from the RMC-1... I guess I should be careful what I wish for. Other than the hot sub situation, has this been a promising move in the right direction firmware-wise for you?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2019 20:11:40 GMT -5
move in the right direction - probably YES. Format changes 2.0 to 5.0, etc. faster, smoother, and more reliable. Have had less need to rew or ff on my cable box to re-capture the audio. The menu is more responsive. I guess my only real complaint at this point is that my complaint(s) about levels setting are being met with "we can't guarantee anything..." and It feels like my concerns are being brushed off. If the level labels are meaningless I can live with that - they're just significantly lower (than their label would suggest) than any other AVR I've ever used. I would like to know WHY there's a significant change/difference between 1.3 & 1.4 - especially since the levels worked very well for me on 1.3 (and the subs were properly integrated - no excess bass). Did the levels have to change so that they could fix the mono vs. dual mono sub setting issue?
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Post by SteveH on Jul 19, 2019 20:19:34 GMT -5
Am I missing something here, or is this not something that can be rectified by turning down the gain on the subwoofers plate amp? My SVS subs gain scale ranges from -100 to 0 dB, so in my case unless I was already at -90, then taming the gain down by 10db shouldn’t be a problem. I guess the question would be, Which version is right? We seem to have agreement that 1.4 has more bass than 1.3. With 1.3, I had my Airmotiv S10s volumes set to 5 out of 9, with the new 1.4 I have had to turn the volumes down to 2.
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Post by Geronimo on Jul 19, 2019 21:17:57 GMT -5
move in the right direction - probably YES. Format changes 2.0 to 5.0, etc. faster, smoother, and more reliable. Have had less need to rew or ff on my cable box to re-capture the audio. The menu is more responsive. I guess my only real complaint at this point is that my complaint(s) about levels setting are being met with "we can't guarantee anything..." and It feels like my concerns are being brushed off. If the level labels are meaningless I can live with that - they're just significantly lower (than their label would suggest) than any other AVR I've ever used. I would like to know WHY there's a significant change/difference between 1.3 & 1.4 - especially since the levels worked very well for me on 1.3 (and the subs were properly integrated - no excess bass). Did the levels have to change so that they could fix the mono vs. dual mono sub setting issue? ON Jun 20, 2019 at 10:04am FROM LONNIE:First let me say that I am sorry for being MIA for a while. We have been swamped on so many fronts that I haven't had time to jump in here. While I am thrilled at the feedback, positive responses and sales of the RMC-1, we continue to improve the product. To that end I want to bring you up to speed on a few things we have been working on. Decreased output level. The lower output level of the latest rounds of code is correct and what it should have been from the beginning. This was an error on our part in the renderer from the git go that has been corrected with the help of Dolby. dolby requires a specific amount of headroom in the system that we misread in the spec during the initial phase of the code design. So what you have now is actually the correct output level that gives you the extended dynamic range Dolby requires.
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Post by lukewayne on Jul 19, 2019 21:42:58 GMT -5
I'm actually glad to hear this about the volume levels. On FW v1.3 my wife gets out her Firing Range Ear Protection when I try to watch a movie at -15.0. I'm going to go update to v1.4 now in hopes of being able to set the volume somewhere closer to Zero when watching films. (psychologically it just feels better, I know it's just a number) Since we are all talking about volume numbers, and how they do or don't matter, I will say that my 10+ year old Sony ES receiver that I have in my living room has adjustments by half numbers (at least as it approaches 0) and i find this to be a really useful feature. But the RMC-1 adjusts by whole number only as far as I've seen so far. I sure would like a finer degree of adjustment with .5 changes instead of whole numbers only, anyone else have an opinion on that? move in the right direction - probably YES. Format changes 2.0 to 5.0, etc. faster, smoother, and more reliable. Have had less need to rew or ff on my cable box to re-capture the audio. The menu is more responsive. I guess my only real complaint at this point is that my complaint(s) about levels setting are being met with "we can't guarantee anything..." and It feels like my concerns are being brushed off. If the level labels are meaningless I can live with that - they're just significantly lower (than their label would suggest) than any other AVR I've ever used. I would like to know WHY there's a significant change/difference between 1.3 & 1.4 - especially since the levels worked very well for me on 1.3 (and the subs were properly integrated - no excess bass). Did the levels have to change so that they could fix the mono vs. dual mono sub setting issue? ON Jun 20, 2019 at 10:04am FROM LONNIE:First let me say that I am sorry for being MIA for a while. We have been swamped on so many fronts that I haven't had time to jump in here. While I am thrilled at the feedback, positive responses and sales of the RMC-1, we continue to improve the product. To that end I want to bring you up to speed on a few things we have been working on. Decreased output level. The lower output level of the latest rounds of code is correct and what it should have been from the beginning. This was an error on our part in the renderer from the git go that has been corrected with the help of Dolby. dolby requires a specific amount of headroom in the system that we misread in the spec during the initial phase of the code design. So what you have now is actually the correct output level that gives you the extended dynamic range Dolby requires.
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Post by markc on Jul 20, 2019 0:59:15 GMT -5
Bear with me here. So 0 is meaningless? I was always under the impression that 0 was reference....... I learned something new. 0db on the volume control simply means that the output level is neither being boosted or cut. It is not an indication of acoustic level in anyway. It's a electrical representation of signal level to the output level. Lonnie However, the Emotiva processors all employ a "Loudness" function which uses Fletcher Munsen Curves (Equal Loudness Contours). (ISO 226:2003 curves seems to be the most up to date tweakings of Fletcher & Munsens original proposal using current best knowledge but Emotiva specs stipulate Fletcher Munsen is in use on the devices) For Loudness to work, the processor needs to "know" what volume SPL is at the listening position for any given internal volume setting, so that it can apply the correct frequency curve. 75dB Volume on the pre-amp would need to create 75dB SPL at the main listening position with a test tone. (Or, put another way Reference Volume should produce 105dB SPL at the MLP, so a Pre-Amp volume of -30dB should produce 75dB at the MLP) The loudness function would then apply the 60dB Equal Loudness (Fletcher Munsen) Curve when the MLP volume is 60dB SPL The 70dB curve would be used for a 70db generating signal etc etc In essence, the Loudness setting (to compensate for frequency dependent sensitivities in the human hearing) cannot optimally function if 70dB volume setting on the Pre-Amp doesn't produce 70dB SPL at the MLP - a less optimal contour would be used
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 20, 2019 3:27:30 GMT -5
Just a thought.... If you have amps with very high gain... and that causes you to have to use them with their gain set way down... You can reduce the gain by inserting a fixed attenuator between the output of the RMC-1 and the input of the amp. Fixed attenuators costs about $20 and, since they're just a passive resistor, won't cause any noise or distortion. You can get them at Parts Express or almost any other parts supplier.) (You can get them in a wide selection of attenuation values - but 12 dB is often about right.) Sadly, if i breathe on my amps' gain setting I can get jumps of +/- 2-3 db (and with two identical subs trying to get the same "gain" on both is tricky). I already lowered the gain to ensure that the sub's auto turn on mode recieved a stronger signal from the RMC-1... I guess I should be careful what I wish for.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 20, 2019 6:40:52 GMT -5
... I guess my only real complaint at this point is that my complaint(s) about levels setting are being met with "we can't guarantee anything..." and It feels like my concerns are being brushed off. If the level labels are meaningless I can live with that - they're just significantly lower (than their label would suggest) than any other AVR I've ever used. I would like to know WHY there's a significant change/difference between 1.3 & 1.4 - especially since the levels worked very well for me on 1.3 (and the subs were properly integrated - no excess bass). Did the levels have to change so that they could fix the mono vs. dual mono sub setting issue? I don’t think your concerns are being brushed off, most of the debate had to do with interpretation of the settings. You seem to have company in agreement that there is something wrong with the bass settings in 1.4, I think you’ll hear back about what happened and what can be done to fix it. The sub test tone should be at the same level as the other test tones, but I will certainly look into this to see if its to hot. Lonnie
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 20, 2019 6:49:52 GMT -5
0db on the volume control simply means that the output level is neither being boosted or cut. It is not an indication of acoustic level in anyway. It's a electrical representation of signal level to the output level. Lonnie However, the Emotiva processors all employ a "Loudness" function which uses Fletcher Munsen Curves (Equal Loudness Contours). (ISO 226:2003 curves seems to be the most up to date tweakings of Fletcher & Munsens original proposal using current best knowledge but Emotiva specs stipulate Fletcher Munsen is in use on the devices) For Loudness to work, the processor needs to "know" what volume SPL is at the listening position for any given internal volume setting, so that it can apply the correct frequency curve. 75dB Volume on the pre-amp would need to create 75dB SPL at the main listening position with a test tone. (Or, put another way Reference Volume should produce 105dB SPL at the MLP, so a Pre-Amp volume of -30dB should produce 75dB at the MLP) The loudness function would then apply the 60dB Equal Loudness (Fletcher Munsen) Curve when the MLP volume is 60dB SPL The 70dB curve would be used for a 70db generating signal etc etc In essence, the Loudness setting (to compensate for frequency dependent sensitivities in the human hearing) cannot optimally function if 70dB volume setting on the Pre-Amp doesn't produce 70dB SPL at the MLP - a less optimal contour would be used Excellent point, I had originally assumed the Dirac measuring process allowed the processor to align itself with the proper FM Loudness curve, but I guess that’s not true. When the XMC-1 first came out I had hopes the loudness function would be helpful, but it’s never sounded right to me.
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Post by goozoo on Jul 20, 2019 9:25:38 GMT -5
The channel output is definitely lowered by 10dB when running test tones RELATIVE to what the previous firmware was; as has been stated several times here. If using an external tone generator, -30dBFS will equate to 75dB (roughly). Very easy to test with a SPL meter. Once you know the difference just account for it in your setting; i.e. add 10dB to get to 75. Remember that you’ll also want to run your surrounds and heights 2-3dB hot for a more immersive effect.
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Post by dimora on Jul 20, 2019 10:48:02 GMT -5
I’m VERY pleased with the channel level changes. Before, I had my sub levels cranked up to +12 just to match rest of my system. Now I’ve got some flexibility to tweak sub levels up or down as needed without putting all my other speakers deep in the negatives.
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Post by cwt on Jul 20, 2019 13:24:34 GMT -5
Since we are all talking about volume numbers, and how they do or don't matter, I will say that my 10+ year old Sony ES receiver that I have in my living room has adjustments by half numbers (at least as it approaches 0) and i find this to be a really useful feature. But the RMC-1 adjusts by whole number only as far as I've seen so far. I sure would like a finer degree of adjustment with .5 changes instead of whole numbers only, anyone else have an opinion on that? The good thing about the RMC1's stepped attenuator analog ladder network volume control is the fewer steps means higher quality resistors and wipers etc can be used [compared to an ordinary potentiometer that has no stops]. www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/stepped-attenuators/#lightbox/1/Its a tradeoff between sound quality and functionality ; the RMC1 has a full analogue fully balanced throughput so its important to keep things in the analogue domain for its 2ch analogue customers imo
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2019 14:38:27 GMT -5
Annoying and interesting behavior. 1. Install new firmware. 2. Power cycle the unit. 3. Run test tones - all lower except for the subs. 4. Calibrate to imaginary reference (your mileage will vary). 5. Have all speakers playing at same approx. level including subs. But when watching movies/tv there is an excess of bass. 6. Power cycle the unit. 7. Re-run test tones - now subs are too loud by several db.... soo I lower them. 8. Kinda sounds like the bass is playing properly now.
I have installed new firmware many times now. I usually follow Lonnie's or Keith's recommendations (eg. factory reset, power off, restore settings etc.). One time I even started from scratch and had similar odd results. Soo, when I get different levels after two power cycles it doesn't inspire confidence. It seems like the register values for level settings are either being held, added to, or corrupted in weird random ways. The saga continues...
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 20, 2019 15:14:07 GMT -5
The gain on my sub's "plate amp" is already at about a 3 on a 1-10 scale so nope... Turn the sub level down in the processor. The controls in the processor are far more precise then the knob on your sub so you have better control. Lonnie
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