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Post by hsamwel on Jul 25, 2019 8:04:58 GMT -5
To change subject a bit..
Emotiva uses ”reversed” hot/cold connection to the outputs. But what about the XLR input? I guess it also uses the same reverse?
As I have emotiva gear in both processor and amp this should not be a problem. But what about devices connected to XLR. For example both my Pioneer units have different hot/cold pins than emotiva. Does it matter? In N-70AE I have an option in setup to change hot pin but this option is not available in UDP-LX800.
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Post by hsamwel on Jul 25, 2019 8:18:28 GMT -5
Btw could this problem happen to any upmixing channels or is it concentrated to top middles? That is a great question and one I can't be certain I know the answer too. I experienced it a few times on overhead middles, but I believe I also heard it in a some channels while watching a lower channel count 7.1 lossless soundtrack. However, I never went back to test it. So my answer is a bit mixed. I think it could happen. It makes sense that it could happen. I may have experienced it happening, but I don't have proof and I never attempted to reproduce the issue to confirm. Perhaps one of the Emotiva folks can chime in and explain what was causing the static and then shed some light on if it would happen when upmxing something like 5.1 to 7.1 or 7.1 to 7.1.2 (just some examples). I guess most of your tests have been done on pre 1.4 firmwares? I have watched five complete movies in DTS-HD MA 5.1, one 7.1, one complete atmos and one Dolby TrueHD 5.1 since I got my RMC 1.4 firmware. Also alot demo views of different lengths with all types of audio. Other than a small stutter at the start ones or twice I have not had any sound problems at all. I have used upmixing for all these 5.1/7.1 movies. My setup can be seen on my sign.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 25, 2019 10:07:08 GMT -5
To change subject a bit.. Emotiva uses ”reversed” hot/cold connection to the outputs. But what about the XLR input? I guess it also uses the same reverse? As I have emotiva gear in both processor and amp this should not be a problem. But what about devices connected to XLR. For example both my Pioneer units have different hot/cold pins than emotiva. Does it matter? In N-70AE I have an option in setup to change hot pin but this option is not available in UDP-LX800. From my understanding it’s just the XLR input that’s reversed, that is Pins 2 & 3 are reversed from what is considered the current standard. To correct this in a system with mixed equipment, the easiest method would be to reverse the speaker cable polarity at either the amp end, OR the speaker end (I personally do it at the amp). You could also reverse the pins on your XLR cables or use an adapter, but I’m more likely to forget the cable is different. Using the unbalanced RCA input would not result in an inverted signal, so you would not reverse the speaker connections. Edit: Here’s the language from the owners manual. “The RCA Unbalanced inputs on all of the XPA Gen3 amplifier modules preserve absolute phase (a positive input signal voltage will result in a positive output voltage).
The XLR Balanced inputs on all of the XPA Gen3 amplifier modules are wired according to the European polarity/phase standard. If the absolute phase of the outputs on your XPA Gen3 amplifier is different than the absolute phase on other equipment you may have, or if your preamp or processor reports a phase inversion, this error can be eliminated by simply reversing the plus and minus speaker connections at the output of the amplifier. Alternately, the phase can be reversed by using a balanced interconnect cable that reverses the connections between pin 2 and pin 3 at either end.
Note: DO NOT reverse the plus and minus speaker connections if you are connecting a High-Powered Single Channel Amplifier Module or a Stereo Amplifier Module to a powered speaker or speaker switch with a common ground. Doing so may result in damage to the amplifier or your other equipment.”
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Post by inchrist on Jul 25, 2019 11:37:17 GMT -5
Damon from Emotiva,
The crackle from middle heights happens when: L/R sub output set to middle height, front speakers set to large, Enhanced bass is active, and you play an ATMOS track. This is the only condition that presents this issue. We have recognized it and are working on it. (It was fixed in one of the beta releases but came back in the 1.4 release.)
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Post by hsamwel on Jul 26, 2019 4:05:00 GMT -5
To change subject a bit.. Emotiva uses ”reversed” hot/cold connection to the outputs. But what about the XLR input? I guess it also uses the same reverse? As I have emotiva gear in both processor and amp this should not be a problem. But what about devices connected to XLR. For example both my Pioneer units have different hot/cold pins than emotiva. Does it matter? In N-70AE I have an option in setup to change hot pin but this option is not available in UDP-LX800. From my understanding it’s just the XLR input that’s reversed, that is Pins 2 & 3 are reversed from what is considered the current standard. To correct this in a system with mixed equipment, the easiest method would be to reverse the speaker cable polarity at either the amp end, OR the speaker end (I personally do it at the amp). You could also reverse the pins on your XLR cables or use an adapter, but I’m more likely to forget the cable is different. Using the unbalanced RCA input would not result in an inverted signal, so you would not reverse the speaker connections. Edit: Here’s the language from the owners manual. “The RCA Unbalanced inputs on all of the XPA Gen3 amplifier modules preserve absolute phase (a positive input signal voltage will result in a positive output voltage).
The XLR Balanced inputs on all of the XPA Gen3 amplifier modules are wired according to the European polarity/phase standard. If the absolute phase of the outputs on your XPA Gen3 amplifier is different than the absolute phase on other equipment you may have, or if your preamp or processor reports a phase inversion, this error can be eliminated by simply reversing the plus and minus speaker connections at the output of the amplifier. Alternately, the phase can be reversed by using a balanced interconnect cable that reverses the connections between pin 2 and pin 3 at either end.
Note: DO NOT reverse the plus and minus speaker connections if you are connecting a High-Powered Single Channel Amplifier Module or a Stereo Amplifier Module to a powered speaker or speaker switch with a common ground. Doing so may result in damage to the amplifier or your other equipment.”
This is really strange. I have read that XPA gen 3 is connected reversed, now your saying it is correct?! But I have my XPA connected with XLR on all channels from RMC so this should be fine. I guess RMC XLR out is the same as XPA XLR in? What I’m curious about is the XLR input of RMC. Is it reversed? What happens if I connect devices to it that are connected differently?
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Post by hsamwel on Jul 26, 2019 4:26:10 GMT -5
Damon from Emotiva, The crackle from middle heights happens when: L/R sub output set to middle height, front speakers set to large, Enhanced bass is active, and you play an ATMOS track. This is the only condition that presents this issue. We have recognized it and are working on it. (It was fixed in one of the beta releases but came back in the 1.4 release.) This is a really special case. Good that it has been detected. I guess most don’t use large fronts with enhanced bass. Unless you have a HUGE room that swallows all that bass. I know I can’t because my fronts are speced to go down to 28hz. With fronts in large and enhanced bass I get too much bass. Usually I have a 100hz crossover all around, as recommended by DSPeaker Antimode 8033Cinema subwoofer DSP that I use. But I have also a second speaker setup with 50hz on the fronts, 80hz on the center and 70hz on the rest of the speakers. But the 100hz speaker setup sounds best and cleanest with movies. I mostly use my second speaker setup for music when I want to use the subwoofer with music.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 26, 2019 5:43:05 GMT -5
From my understanding it’s just the XLR input that’s reversed, that is Pins 2 & 3 are reversed from what is considered the current standard. To correct this in a system with mixed equipment, the easiest method would be to reverse the speaker cable polarity at either the amp end, OR the speaker end (I personally do it at the amp). You could also reverse the pins on your XLR cables or use an adapter, but I’m more likely to forget the cable is different. Using the unbalanced RCA input would not result in an inverted signal, so you would not reverse the speaker connections. Edit: Here’s the language from the owners manual. “The RCA Unbalanced inputs on all of the XPA Gen3 amplifier modules preserve absolute phase (a positive input signal voltage will result in a positive output voltage).
The XLR Balanced inputs on all of the XPA Gen3 amplifier modules are wired according to the European polarity/phase standard. If the absolute phase of the outputs on your XPA Gen3 amplifier is different than the absolute phase on other equipment you may have, or if your preamp or processor reports a phase inversion, this error can be eliminated by simply reversing the plus and minus speaker connections at the output of the amplifier. Alternately, the phase can be reversed by using a balanced interconnect cable that reverses the connections between pin 2 and pin 3 at either end.
Note: DO NOT reverse the plus and minus speaker connections if you are connecting a High-Powered Single Channel Amplifier Module or a Stereo Amplifier Module to a powered speaker or speaker switch with a common ground. Doing so may result in damage to the amplifier or your other equipment.”
This is really strange. I have read that XPA gen 3 is connected reversed, now your saying it is correct?! But I have my XPA connected with XLR on all channels from RMC so this should be fine. I guess RMC XLR out is the same as XPA XLR in? What I’m curious about is the XLR input of RMC. Is it reversed? What happens if I connect devices to it that are connected differently? No, I don’t think you read my post correctly. All Emotiva power amps with XLR inputs (like the XPA Gen 3) have pins 2 & 3 reversed from the current standard, you should reverse the speaker outputs if you want to compensate. None of the RCA inputs are reversed, and none of the processors (like the RMC-1) are reversed. So you only need to compensate if you’re using the XLR inputs on the power amp.
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Post by SOWK on Jul 26, 2019 5:57:22 GMT -5
This is 100% accurate.
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Post by theblackangus on Jul 26, 2019 6:11:06 GMT -5
This is really strange. I have read that XPA gen 3 is connected reversed, now your saying it is correct?! But I have my XPA connected with XLR on all channels from RMC so this should be fine. I guess RMC XLR out is the same as XPA XLR in? What I’m curious about is the XLR input of RMC. Is it reversed? What happens if I connect devices to it that are connected differently? No, I don’t think you read my post correctly. All Emotiva power amps with XLR inputs (like the XPA Gen 3) have pins 2 & 3 reversed from the current standard, you should reverse the speaker outputs if you want to compensate. None of the RCA inputs are reversed, and none of the processors (like the RMC-1) are reversed. So you only need to compensate if you’re using the XLR inputs on the power amp.
Audio.... I think he is asking about he XLR inputs on the RMC, not RCA. So for example XLR out from phono pre to RMC-1 XLR input.
I could be wrong, but that is how I am reading his question.
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Post by SOWK on Jul 26, 2019 6:58:01 GMT -5
Audio.... I think he is asking about he XLR inputs on the RMC, not RCA. So for example XLR out from phono pre to RMC-1 XLR input.
I could be wrong, but that is how I am reading his question.
This would be good to know regardless.
Lonnie? Are the XLR "Inputs" on the RMC-1 in phase (industry standard) or out of phase like the XPA Amps?
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Post by SOWK on Jul 26, 2019 8:17:38 GMT -5
Can I get confirmation that this is how everyone understands Emotiva's Enhanced Bass setup?
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 26, 2019 9:47:25 GMT -5
No, I don’t think you read my post correctly. All Emotiva power amps with XLR inputs (like the XPA Gen 3) have pins 2 & 3 reversed from the current standard, you should reverse the speaker outputs if you want to compensate. None of the RCA inputs are reversed, and none of the processors (like the RMC-1) are reversed. So you only need to compensate if you’re using the XLR inputs on the power amp. Audio.... I think he is asking about he XLR inputs on the RMC, not RCA. So for example XLR out from phono pre to RMC-1 XLR input.
I could be wrong, but that is how I am reading his question. I believe my answer clarified the first part of his statement, but you’re right, I missed that the last part referring to the RMC-1’s balanced inputs (and presumably on all of the processors). KeithL ?
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Post by davidl81 on Jul 26, 2019 11:13:43 GMT -5
How stable is the RMC-1 now that 1.4 is out? I keep on looking at the RMC and I am getting close to buying it. I kept on trying to figure out different ways to make spotify connect work with the unit, since it would be powering my outdoor setup but I actually just came up with a very simple solution. I will buy a used SR7009 for $500 that will do everything I need it to (App support, spotify connect, three zones) and just sell my A-300 to make up some of the cost. Now the RMC-1 will be strictly used in my theater room. Here is what will be connected to it. Display= Sony 385ES 4K projector Apple TV4K Xbox One X Panasonic UB820 4k player Sony PS4 (hardly use) From what I can tell the apple tv is the only thing on this list that seems to have some issues. Anyone else have any ideas/input of what they think. I will be replacing the AV8802A.
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Post by adaboy on Jul 26, 2019 11:22:59 GMT -5
How stable is the RMC-1 now that 1.4 is out? I keep on looking at the RMC and I am getting close to buying it. I kept on trying to figure out different ways to make spotify connect work with the unit, since it would be powering my outdoor setup but I actually just came up with a very simple solution. I will buy a used SR7009 for $500 that will do everything I need it to (App support, spotify connect, three zones) and just sell my A-300 to make up some of the cost. Now the RMC-1 will be strictly used in my theater room. Here is what will be connected to it. Display= Sony 385ES 4K projector Apple TV4K Xbox One X Panasonic UB820 4k player Sony PS4 (hardly use) From what I can tell the apple tv is the only thing on this list that seems to have some issues. Anyone else have any ideas/input of what they think. I will be replacing the AV8802A. Sad that you have to concoct this work around to move up from a perfectly working processor.
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Post by davidl81 on Jul 26, 2019 11:27:10 GMT -5
How stable is the RMC-1 now that 1.4 is out? I keep on looking at the RMC and I am getting close to buying it. I kept on trying to figure out different ways to make spotify connect work with the unit, since it would be powering my outdoor setup but I actually just came up with a very simple solution. I will buy a used SR7009 for $500 that will do everything I need it to (App support, spotify connect, three zones) and just sell my A-300 to make up some of the cost. Now the RMC-1 will be strictly used in my theater room. Here is what will be connected to it. Display= Sony 385ES 4K projector Apple TV4K Xbox One X Panasonic UB820 4k player Sony PS4 (hardly use) From what I can tell the apple tv is the only thing on this list that seems to have some issues. Anyone else have any ideas/input of what they think. I will be replacing the AV8802A. Sad that you have to concoct this work around to move up from a perfectly working processor. I am having a lot of hesitation as the AV8802 is such a good unit for me. The only reason I want to maybe change is for SQ. The jump from my previous SR7009 to the AV8802 was huge. If the jump form the AV8802A to the RMC-1 is as big of a leap then I would be very satisfied with it. Of course there is a good chance that the two processors are on par with one another and that would be disappointing.
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Post by tabbycph on Jul 26, 2019 11:29:12 GMT -5
How stable is the RMC-1 now that 1.4 is out? I keep on looking at the RMC and I am getting close to buying it. I kept on trying to figure out different ways to make spotify connect work with the unit, since it would be powering my outdoor setup but I actually just came up with a very simple solution. I will buy a used SR7009 for $500 that will do everything I need it to (App support, spotify connect, three zones) and just sell my A-300 to make up some of the cost. Now the RMC-1 will be strictly used in my theater room. Here is what will be connected to it. Display= Sony 385ES 4K projector Apple TV4K Xbox One X Panasonic UB820 4k player Sony PS4 (hardly use) From what I can tell the apple tv is the only thing on this list that seems to have some issues. Anyone else have any ideas/input of what they think. I will be replacing the AV8802A. Hi, I have not seen any unstability, no audio drop outs, from htpc, oppo 205, Apple TV4K off any kind, im very happy. Before with 1.3a, I had droputs at apptv every 12 min and much more on htpc, but now nothing.
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richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 860
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Post by richb on Jul 26, 2019 11:44:16 GMT -5
Sad that you have to concoct this work around to move up from a perfectly working processor. I am having a lot of hesitation as the AV8802 is such a good unit for me. The only reason I want to maybe change is for SQ. The jump from my previous SR7009 to the AV8802 was huge. If the jump form the AV8802A to the RMC-1 is as big of a leap then I would be very satisfied with it. Of course there is a good chance that the two processors are on par with one another and that would be disappointing. It's hard for anyone to say if the resulting performance would be a "big leap" in your system or perception. However, there are some design choices made in the Marantz AV8805 are questionable (to me), such as the reduction of all analog signals to 1 volt for internal processing, volume control design, and indeterminate A/D conversions in Pure Direct mode. The XMC and RMC all have a true XLR analog path which is important to me. Here some analysis of the AV8005 internal circuitry: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-marantz-av8805-av-processor.6926/page-24#post-196324From a technical perspective, the RMC-1 implementation is clearly superior. Unfortunately, there are no published performance specifications for comparison. - Rich
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Post by marcl on Jul 26, 2019 12:21:08 GMT -5
Can I get confirmation that this is how everyone understands Emotiva's Enhanced Bass setup?
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Post by adaboy on Jul 26, 2019 12:24:48 GMT -5
I am having a lot of hesitation as the AV8802 is such a good unit for me. The only reason I want to maybe change is for SQ. The jump from my previous SR7009 to the AV8802 was huge. If the jump form the AV8802A to the RMC-1 is as big of a leap then I would be very satisfied with it. Of course there is a good chance that the two processors are on par with one another and that would be disappointing. It's hard for anyone to say if the resulting performance would be a "big leap" in your system or perception. However, there are some design choices made in the Marantz AV8805 are questionable (to me), such as the reduction of all analog signals to 1 volt for internal processing, volume control design, and indeterminate A/D conversions in Pure Direct mode. The XMC and RMC all have a true XLR analog path which is important to me. Here some analysis of the AV8005 internal circuitry: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-marantz-av8805-av-processor.6926/page-24#post-196324From a technical perspective, the RMC-1 implementation is clearly superior. Unfortunately, there are no published performance specifications for comparison. - Rich The biggest difference between the two is the Marantz works without issues, but the RMC-1 is still being patched together... So superior is highly subjective. When the RMC-1 catches up to the 21st century in basic usability, wifi streaming, and component integration again without blaming the industry or other products for failures. Once that happens with RMC-1 then we can talk about state of the art, and superior this or that.
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Post by marcl on Jul 26, 2019 12:34:43 GMT -5
It looks basically right but you would need some arrows. Here's the key thing (and why nobody probably wants to use this feature): it routes LFE below 80Hz BACK to every Large speaker, except the center; and it also sends bass below 80Hz from any Large speaker to the LFE.
Problem with the latter situation is you are stuck with 80Hz from Large speakers to LFE with no ability to change that frequency. Note that it low-passes to the LFE but does not high pass>80Hz to the Large speakers. The bigger issue is the first point ... routing LFE <80Hz to the main Large speakers. I see NO reason why you would want to subject your main speakers to movie LFE. I tried this briefly and some 25Hz thunder and alien monster effects made the woofer diaphragms in my Magnepan 3.7's emit a terrifying SLAP SLAP SLAP SLAP.
A better implementation (as with my old Outlaw 990) would be to allow the main L/R to run full range and also send below a user specified frequency to the sub. i.e. I could run my 3.7's full range AND have the subs get <40Hz or whatever I choose.
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