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Post by tagmanz on Sept 15, 2019 15:46:36 GMT -5
With disregard of sounding further misinformed was the PRO version running off a available movie to the public? We were told the DTS:X mixes didn’t actually have objects. Maybe this has changed as of late. In all these situations I am happy to hear that my knowledge has been mislead. I am more excited now to see Emotiva launch their expansions. In your opinion if storm audio is releasing a 13.1.10 format next year would this indicate it should be available to Emotiva? And one last question how would you compare the Pro with Atmos and how about Atmos with CP850 Atmos? Thanks for your patience. The Dts:X Pro demo clip was developed specifically [by Trinnov] as a Pro demo. It's not a movie clip. I spoke to the Dts folks about the use of objects and they say that they are actively promoting the use of objects alongside Pro and IMAX Enhanced. But ultimately it is up to the studios. Well Go USA is the only studio that used objects with Dts:X. They seem to have switched to Atmos now. There are several DSP decoding solutions for Atmos/Dts:X/Auro (which are used by everyone aside from Trinnov and Dolby). The two who have moved past 7.1.4 are ADI (Analog Devices) and TI/MDS (Texas Instruments/Momentum Data Systems). Emotiva took the initiative and decided not to wait on ADI to code higher channel counts but to invest in the development to get to 9.1.6 on a newer, more capable chipset from ADI. Denon/Marantz and Emotiva were the first to utilize this chipset. TI/MDS has been beating ADI to the punch IMO. They have updated their original APM-89 decoder from 7.1.4 to 7.1.6 and now to 9.1.6. This chipset is used in the Acurus and StormAudio SSPs. To go beyond 9.1.6 and offer Dts:X Pro TI/MDS now has the APM-100 series. I suspect that most of the new 16ch SSPs that have announced support for Dts:X Pro and/or channel counts past 9.1.6 are using the APM-100 series. See the link for datasheet. I hope Emotiva is not left holding the bag for the further ADI development for Atmos and Dts:X. cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5d7c3ef5ad7ef/APM-datasheet-2nd-Gen-Rev5.pdfVery informative post. Thanks for sharing. One would hope that the ADI chipset that Emotiva are using would be on par with the APM-120 listed in the datasheet. It is a good point that you raise regarding availability of code from ADI. The assumption we have all been making (at least I have anyway) is that it was just a matter of waiting on Emotiva to develop the expansion modules for higher channel counts. Hopefully they are not also at the mercy of ADI to develop further code to decode/process these extra channels.
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 15, 2019 16:39:51 GMT -5
Watching Harry Potter #1 4k, dts hdma, dts:x and it's very good, 7.1.6. Does the RMC-1 support a 5.x.6 layout? No, my middle tops are wired, but still waiting for a new upmixer from EMO to activate them. Right now they are silent during HP.
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Post by goozoo on Sept 15, 2019 16:46:01 GMT -5
The Dts:X Pro demo clip was developed specifically [by Trinnov] as a Pro demo. It's not a movie clip. I spoke to the Dts folks about the use of objects and they say that they are actively promoting the use of objects alongside Pro and IMAX Enhanced. But ultimately it is up to the studios. Well Go USA is the only studio that used objects with Dts:X. They seem to have switched to Atmos now. There are several DSP decoding solutions for Atmos/Dts:X/Auro (which are used by everyone aside from Trinnov and Dolby). The two who have moved past 7.1.4 are ADI (Analog Devices) and TI/MDS (Texas Instruments/Momentum Data Systems). Emotiva took the initiative and decided not to wait on ADI to code higher channel counts but to invest in the development to get to 9.1.6 on a newer, more capable chipset from ADI. Denon/Marantz and Emotiva were the first to utilize this chipset. TI/MDS has been beating ADI to the punch IMO. They have updated their original APM-89 decoder from 7.1.4 to 7.1.6 and now to 9.1.6. This chipset is used in the Acurus and StormAudio SSPs. To go beyond 9.1.6 and offer Dts:X Pro TI/MDS now has the APM-100 series. I suspect that most of the new 16ch SSPs that have announced support for Dts:X Pro and/or channel counts past 9.1.6 are using the APM-100 series. See the link for datasheet. I hope Emotiva is not left holding the bag for the further ADI development for Atmos and Dts:X. cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5d7c3ef5ad7ef/APM-datasheet-2nd-Gen-Rev5.pdfVery informative post. Thanks for sharing. One would hope that the ADI chipset that Emotiva are using would be on par with the APM-120 listed in the datasheet. It is a good point that you raise regarding availability of code from ADI. The assumption we have all been making (at least I have anyway) is that it was just a matter of waiting on Emotiva to develop the expansion modules for higher channel counts. Hopefully they are not also at the mercy of ADI to develop further code to decode/process these extra channels. Perhaps nospam can shed some light on this, but I think that without the ADI chipset that expands beyond 9.1.6, Emotiva would have had to develop their own custom chips to expand the channels. This is what I wasn’t clear on when reading his post about Emo investing in the expanded channel count. So perhaps this has also been part of the holdup.
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Post by nospam on Sept 15, 2019 17:25:07 GMT -5
Does the RMC-1 support a 5.x.6 layout? No, my middle tops are wired, but still waiting for a new upmixer from EMO to activate them. Right now they are silent during HP. Was this with your 7.1.6 config or where you actually able to switch to 5.1.6 (sacrificing rear surrounds)? Dts is limited to 12ch until Pro is implemented. Also, does the RMC-1 have the option to turn Neural X upmixing on/off during Dts:X decoding. If Emotiva has implemented Neural X as part of the Dts:X decoding, it does a marvelous job extracting wides and/or top middles. Testing out the following layouts will give you a preview of Dts:X Pro: 5.1.6, 9.1.2, and 7.1.4 (Wides in lieu of rear surrounds). Does the RMC-1 support any, all, or none of these layouts?
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 15, 2019 17:50:43 GMT -5
Just watched MIB International in DTS-HDMA and Neural:X. There is definitely something wrong with the Neural:X implementation. Dynamic range reduced, bass output reduced, dialogue too much expansion. Had to use a compressor and shelving filters to get it back to the HDMA level. Same effect on other titles as well. If this is what DTS:X Pro will sounds like on this unit NO THANKS! I have yet to have a problem with any DTS 5.1/DTS-HD MA 5.1, be it DVD/blu-ray/UHD blu-ray discs. No problem with Neural:X upmixing to 7.1 either. Someone want to expand on this problem?...or is this spilling over into the immersive channels which I don't have(at this time) and can't verify. Any particular movie? Last I checked, DTS ES 6.1 AND DOLBY DIGITAL EX were not properly handled on a 7.1 (9.2.4) system with regards in the rear channels. I did report it at the time. Haven't checked on 1.5 In addition: DTS-ES Matrix 6.1 is not supported according the manual. (DTS-ES Matrix 6.1 ist nicht unterstützt gemäss RMC1-1 Handbuch)
DTS:X DTS-HD Master Audio DTS-HD High Resolution Audio DTS 5.1 DTS ES Discrete 6.1 (not Matrix)
If sound is DTS-ES Matrix 6.1 - it will only show the core of the sound, which is DTS 5.1. DTS 5.1 is correct. (DTS 5.1 Anzeige bei DTS-ES Matrix 6.1 ist also korrekt).
So do you only have the problems you reported using MKV-files? Did you test with actual discs with DTS audio? - Bestehen die Probleme nur mit MKV-Dateien? Hast Du auch mal mit DVDs / BluRays / UHDs mit DTS-Tonspur getestet? What's your opinion of dts:x? Watching Harry Potter #1 4k, dts hdma, dts:x and it's very good, 7.1.6. I own only a couple of movies in native DTS:X and am not impressed with how they sound as the mixing was too hot in a lot of areas. In general, I think the center spread is too wide with the codec and has no way to dial in the dialogue. That said, I have heard it in other systems and can say that the implementation on the RMC-1 does not sound right (at least with regard to the Neural:X upmixing). I am a bit biased however as we pretty much install higher end processors these days at double to triple the cost and it’s a whole another tier. So perhaps this is how it is suppose to sound. My wife and I are huge Harry Potter fans and need to add the UHD to our collection. I know the new series released in ATMOS has been near reference quality for audio. I assure you that under the firmware 1.3 Neural: x worked wonderfully well because the difference in sound quality with the AV8805 was huge is how I had hit from the firmware 1.4 I have noticed that some thing do not go with DTS decoding 2 main pts. 1. Issue with DTS Neural:X upconverting rears with DTS 6.1 matrix (no rear speaker issues with Neural:X upconverting DTS 5.1). 2. Quality of the DTS Neural:X upconversion is being questioned. DTS Neural:X worked better in 1.3 than 1.5 ... but with what material? Notice from the Blu-ray.com review that the DTS HDMA 5.1 audio is rated at 4.9/5.0. So Neural:X is under performing.
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 15, 2019 17:59:16 GMT -5
No, my middle tops are wired, but still waiting for a new upmixer from EMO to activate them. Right now they are silent during HP. Was this with your 7.1.6 config or where you actually able to switch to 5.1.6 (sacrificing rear surrounds)? Dts is limited to 12ch until Pro is implemented. Also, does the RMC-1 have the option to turn Neural X upmixing on/off during Dts:X decoding. If Emotiva has implemented Neural X as part of the Dts:X decoding, it does a marvelous job extracting wides and/or top middles. Testing out the following layouts will give you a preview of Dts:X Pro: 5.1.6, 9.1.2, and 7.1.4 (Wides in lieu of rear surrounds). Does the RMC-1 support any, all, or none of these layouts? Interesting ... I'll try 5.1.6 (in leau of rears) this week and listen to middle tops. If I'm really ambitious, I'll hook up some wides (in leau of rears) and listen to wide speakers (7.1.4). I'll run out of speakers after 9.1.6. Good idea.
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Post by tagmanz on Sept 15, 2019 18:02:56 GMT -5
Very informative post. Thanks for sharing. One would hope that the ADI chipset that Emotiva are using would be on par with the APM-120 listed in the datasheet. It is a good point that you raise regarding availability of code from ADI. The assumption we have all been making (at least I have anyway) is that it was just a matter of waiting on Emotiva to develop the expansion modules for higher channel counts. Hopefully they are not also at the mercy of ADI to develop further code to decode/process these extra channels. Perhaps nospam can shed some light on this, but I think that without the ADI chipset that expands beyond 9.1.6, Emotiva would have had to develop their own custom chips to expand the channels. This is what I wasn’t clear on when reading his post about Emo investing in the expanded channel count. So perhaps this has also been part of the holdup. I took nospam's comments to mean that rather than wait for ADI to expand the channel count on their older chipset to 9.1.6 as TI/MDS have done, Emotiva elected to wait for the latest chipset with 9.1.6 out of the box. What's not clear to me, and perhaps this is what you too are asking, is if the latest ADI chipset was/is capable of more than 9.1.6 at point of release or if a new code release from ADI is required to unlock the higher channel counts?
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 15, 2019 18:11:57 GMT -5
Can RMC-1 Expansion modules incorporate newer ADI/APM ... to expand the channel count?
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Post by lrobertson on Sept 15, 2019 18:12:37 GMT -5
Emotiva already announced 11.1.8 at the release of the channel expansions I thought but I imagine that could mean we just end up seeing the expansions a lot later on. Who knows how much of their R&D funds got eaten up with the unexpected problems on roll out so I hope the development is not all on them.
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Post by nospam on Sept 15, 2019 21:31:40 GMT -5
There are several DSP decoding solutions for Atmos/Dts:X/Auro (which are used by everyone aside from Trinnov and Dolby). The two who have moved past 7.1.4 are ADI (Analog Devices) and TI/MDS (Texas Instruments/Momentum Data Systems). Emotiva took the initiative and decided not to wait on ADI to code higher channel counts but to invest in the development to get to 9.1.6 on a newer, more capable chipset from ADI. Denon/Marantz and Emotiva were the first to utilize this chipset. TI/MDS has been beating ADI to the punch IMO. They have updated their original APM-89 decoder from 7.1.4 to 7.1.6 and now to 9.1.6. This chipset is used in the Acurus and StormAudio SSPs. To go beyond 9.1.6 and offer Dts:X Pro TI/MDS now has the APM-100 series. I suspect that most of the new 16ch SSPs that have announced support for Dts:X Pro and/or channel counts past 9.1.6 are using the APM-100 series. One would hope that the ADI chipset that Emotiva are using would be on par with the APM-120 listed in the datasheet. It is a good point that you raise regarding availability of code from ADI. The assumption we have all been making (at least I have anyway) is that it was just a matter of waiting on Emotiva to develop the expansion modules for higher channel counts. Hopefully they are not also at the mercy of ADI to develop further code to decode/process these extra channels. Both Emotiva (2x ADSP-SC587) and Denon/Marantz (2x ADSP-21587) utilize ADI's Griffin Lite SHARC+ DSPs. The only difference between the two being the ARM co-processor utilized by Emotiva to run their linux OS. D+M utilIzes a separate processor for their OS (standard across their line-up ) . These are ADI's 5th generation DSPs. They introduced decoding of immersive formats in their 4th gen SHARCs. The 4th gen SHARCs are limited to 12 channels (and still the chipset used in D+M models ≤11.2). www.analog.com/en/products/landing-pages/001/adsp-sc58x-adsp-2158x-series.html I've looked further into the Griffin Lite DSPs and they appears to be limited to 16 channels through the standard serial I/O. This explains why each Emo XLR expansion module would require its own SHARC to exceed 9.1.6. The Denon AVR-X8500 and Marantz AV8805 are limited to 14ch decoding, but with two subs. It appears that D+M chose to support dual subs rather than 9.1.6. D+M use the second SHARC+ for Audyssey w/SubEQ. Perhaps nospam can shed some light on this, but I think that without the ADI chipset that expands beyond 9.1.6, Emotiva would have had to develop their own custom chips to expand the channels. This is what I wasn’t clear on when reading his post about Emo investing in the expanded channel count. So perhaps this has also been part of the holdup. I took nospam's comments to mean that rather than wait for ADI to expand the channel count on their older chipset to 9.1.6 as TI/MDS have done, Emotiva elected to wait for the latest chipset with 9.1.6 out of the box. What's not clear to me, and perhaps this is what you too are asking, is if the latest ADI chipset was/is capable of more than 9.1.6 at point of release or if a new code release from ADI is required to unlock the higher channel counts? I was told by Emotiva that they own the 9.1.6 Atmos decoding code on the Griffin Lite. AFAIK, Emotiva had to sponsor additional development to get to 16 channels as ADI only provided 14ch decoding for D+M. I believe Emotiva is using the second SHARC+ for PEQ and Dirac. As I stated above, I do not believe the Griffin Lite DSP is capable of more than 16 channels. I hope KeithL will correct me if I am wrong. It appears that the Griffin Lite DSPs simply brought ADI to par with TI/MDS. The original TI/MDS APM-89 (used by StormAudio and Acurus) supports 16ch. It's firmware was flash updated for 7.1.6 support several years ago and then to 9.1.6 at the end of 2018. I remember Dan and Lonnie making it a point that they were not using any MDS solutions for the RMC-1. I believe they stated it would provide them more agility to control the code for HDMI and Atmos. MDS's newest APM solutions offer 16 (APM-100), 24 (APM-110), and 32 (APM-120, Q4/2019) channel Atmos decoding/rendering (Dts:X Pro support in 2020). In addition Dirac and PEQ are supported simultaneously. No second DSP required. Perhaps the Griffin Lite has the horsepower to run Dirac and decoding/rendering on the same board, but it could require Dirac be limited to 48kHz. A trade-off most Emotiva customers wouldn’t support. The reduction of Dirac support from 192kHz to 96kHz hints that thr Griffin Lite DSPs may not be as powerful as Emotiva original expected. I believe that D+M would run Audyssey on the same ADSP if they could.
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Post by nospam on Sept 15, 2019 21:45:08 GMT -5
Can RMC-1 Expansion modules incorporate newer ADI/APM ... to expand the channel count? ADI ADSP expansion, yes. This is what they announced for Q1/2019. TI/MDS APM-1xx, probably but unlikely. Theoretically, it would need to become the primary decoder/renderer. Perhaps the two Griffin Lite DSPs could be utilized to run Dirac at up to 192kHz. Edit: StormAudio currently utilizes the APM-89 for decoding and ADI 4th-gen SHARCs for bass-management, PEQ, and Dirac. Their Mark2 upgrade replaces the APM-89 with the APM-110. I do not know if they are retaining the same SHARCs for Dirac (limited to 48kHz).
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Post by hsamwel on Sept 16, 2019 1:46:14 GMT -5
Last I checked, DTS ES 6.1 AND DOLBY DIGITAL EX were not properly handled on a 7.1 (7.2.4) system with regards in the rear channels. I did report it at the time. Haven't checked on 1.5 Still doesn’t work.. I ran a couple of Dolby Digital 5.1 EX movies with my boy and RMC reported these as DD 5.1. There weren’t that many DTS 6.1 ES Matrix movies and I have all my DVDs in storage at the moment so can’t test those.. Don’t know if there is an actual difference with DD 5.1 EX or DD 7.1 EX though or if this is simply a misprint on the discs and disc menus.
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Post by hsamwel on Sept 16, 2019 2:39:17 GMT -5
Many cases is actually VERY rare cases.. Mostly you want to edit the setup then try it. Having a fast, problem free experience while doing so. Sorry, but the live changes just make it a pain in the **.. I would guess this is a engineer vs user issue.. You should have to exit setup to see/hear changes or atleast make some active choice (maybe press enter/select) to change something while in setup. It’s better if you exit setup and have an option to return to the same settings place you where before exiting. We find that, in many cases, it is a distinct benefit to be able to hear changes when you make them...
That's why menu changes are made "live" - and why the inputs actually change when you go into the screen to set them. If we didn't switch the unit to that input then you wouldn't be able to hear the changes you're making.
(It's kind of an either/or proposition... it would be too confusing to make some changes "live" and others" offline".)
We actually have a Setup App for the XMC-1 that lets you enter all the information and then "dump" it into the unit all at once. (I'm sure we'll be updating that for the RMC-1 as well.)
I've had my RMC-1 for a couple of days now. I immediately installed the 1.5 firmware update. A UI suggestion: Shortly after I got the unit I wanted to give all the inputs custom names. Every time you drill into the settings for a given input it automatically sets that input as the active output, which means it throws the "Please Wait" message up and you have to wait a few seconds for the AV sync handshake stuff to happen like it does anytime you change inputs. In this case, though, I just wanted to change the settings of each input. I didn't actually want to change the active output. In other words, it would be nice if you could browse through the settings of all the different inputs without actually changing the active output. This is how every other receiver/processor I've ever owned works. A UI bug: Sometimes the unit gets into a state where the UI has a massive delay and may even become frozen. The only fix I've found is power cycling the unit. I haven't narrowed down exactly what causes this yet, but I think it happens when you change from a regular HDMI input to ARC and then back to regular HDMI and then back to ARC, etc. I'm not talking about rapidly changing inputs. I'm talking about change to ARC, wait several seconds for audio/video to start playing, then change back to HDMI 1 and wait several seconds for audio/video to start, then change back to ARC, etc. When this slowdown happens, even things like adjusting the volume are affected. Like I'll press the volume up or down button, and then 2-3 seconds later the UI on the unit and the OSD finally pop up and show that the volume is changing, and that's also when the actual volume coming out of the speakers starts changing. Everything else in the UI is also affected by this slowdown, not just volume. I'm a software engineer, but I work on video games not embedded hardware, so this kind of thing is outside my wheelhouse. Basically, I'm guessing that a buffer or stack isn't getting cleared/popped that should be when you change back and forth from ARC, and so after you've done it a few times it causes massive slowdowns. This is just a guess. I'll keep messing with it over the weekend and see if I can narrow down specific reproduction steps.
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richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 860
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Post by richb on Sept 16, 2019 7:17:45 GMT -5
Perhaps the Griffin Lite has the horsepower to run Dirac and decoding/rendering on the same board, but it could require Dirac be limited to 48kHz. A trade-off most Emotiva customers wouldn’t support. The reduction of Dirac support from 192kHz to 96kHz hints that thr Griffin Lite DSPs may not be as powerful as Emotiva original expected. I believe that D+M would run Audyssey on the same ADSP if they could. Apparently, the HTP-1 is limited to Dirac to 48kHz, it would be great if Emotiva can processes Dirac at 96kHz. There seem to be at least 3 possibly other variants of the ATI platform coming. - Rich
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Sept 16, 2019 10:30:55 GMT -5
In a lot of cases it's really also a matter of personal preference. Many people agree with you - that you should have to actively "accept" or 'commit" changes... But many others find having to hit Enter or Accept to be a nuisance, and much prefer to have menu entries take effect when you make them... And, while having some options one way and some the other seems like a logical solution, it makes programming things far more complicated... (And, unless it's obvious to you, it becomes very confusing to remember which changes require an Enter and which ones don't.)
For example, if one channel is 3 dB low, would you rather?: - enter the menu, dial up +3 dB, then exit to see if you got it right (repeat if your calculation was wrong)
- go into the "level adjust" screen, click the "up" button slowly, while watching the meter, and stop when the meter reads "0"
Entering a list of corrections, when you know what they are, is easier if you can just punch them all in.... But manually creating a flat curve on an RTA, where the bands interact with each other, is far easier if you can watch what your changes do in real-time.... (And some people very much prefer to hear what various surround sound options sound like so they can decide which one to use.)
As I mentioned, we did offer a setup app which allows you to download, edit, and upload all of the settings for the XMC-1 at once.
(And it will eventually be updated for the RMC-1.)
Many cases is actually VERY rare cases.. Mostly you want to edit the setup then try it. Having a fast, problem free experience while doing so. Sorry, but the live changes just make it a pain in the **.. I would guess this is a engineer vs user issue.. You should have to exit setup to see/hear changes or atleast make some active choice (maybe press enter/select) to change something while in setup. It’s better if you exit setup and have an option to return to the same settings place you where before exiting. We find that, in many cases, it is a distinct benefit to be able to hear changes when you make them...
That's why menu changes are made "live" - and why the inputs actually change when you go into the screen to set them. If we didn't switch the unit to that input then you wouldn't be able to hear the changes you're making.
(It's kind of an either/or proposition... it would be too confusing to make some changes "live" and others" offline".)
We actually have a Setup App for the XMC-1 that lets you enter all the information and then "dump" it into the unit all at once. (I'm sure we'll be updating that for the RMC-1 as well.)
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Sept 16, 2019 10:36:09 GMT -5
Unfortunately, while that makes sense from a logical perspective, it isn't all that simple to program. The commands all come in the same place... so, in order to assign them with priorities, you must first process all of them - to see what they are.
So now you need a separate processor, including hardware and code, to "process the incoming commands to decide in what order they should be processed".
(It's certainly possible - but it adds another layer of complexity and another layer of processing.)
One suggestion I'd make is for that input queue to be a priority queue with certain types of inputs being a higher priority than others. For instance, if it gets into a situation where it's waiting for seconds at a time, then volume up or down input commands should jump to the front of the queue and be serviced immediately instead of waiting for whatever other thing to finish. This is specifically because of what was already mentioned. If you hold down the volume up button and nothing happens, and then 5 seconds later all those volume change commands finally get processed and the volume starts increasing, you have no way to stop it if it starts getting too loud. Volume control is one of the few input types that absolutely needs an immediate feedback loop. People could inadvertently blow speakers if they can't run across the room and switch off their processor in time when this happens. In general, a "processor" like the RMC-1 actually contains several different processors, each running its own software, and working together. And, in many cases, these different software modules may be written separately, by different programmers, or even provided to us by folks like the DSP vendor.
As you might expect, many situations arise where one software module must issue a command or request, then wait for another to respond before proceeding. For example, if we instruct an HDMI switch to change inputs, it may respond after successfully hand-shaking with the source device connected to that input. However, if there's nothing connected to that input, we may have to simply wait a few seconds to see if anything responds to find that out for sure. Then, if nothing responds after several seconds, we can try again, or time it out and move on. And there's always going to be a tradeoff between speed and caution....
If your Blu-Ray player doesn't respond in three seconds, do we wait a few more seconds, try again, or give up? (And, yes, if one of the internal processors crashes for some reason, we may have the option of waiting for it or resetting it.)
The bottom line is that, now that we've sorted out most of the major issues, we've been going back and looking for spots where we can reduce delays and improve response time. In some cases, because of the way we do update settings as they're made, and simply because of the way the hardware itself works, some delays are inevitable... However, so far we have located and reduced unnecessarily long delays in several spots... and we do hope to find and reduce several more. (Buffering a few remote control commands is necessary in order to avoid losing commands that arrive when they cannot be processed instantly...)
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richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 860
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Post by richb on Sept 16, 2019 10:41:01 GMT -5
In a lot of cases it's really also a matter of personal preference. Many people agree with you - that you should have to actively "accept" or 'commit" changes... But many others find having to hit Enter or Accept to be a nuisance, and much prefer to have menu entries take effect when you make them... And, while having some options one way and some the other seems like a logical solution, it makes programming things far more complicated... (And, unless it's obvious to you, it becomes very confusing to remember which changes require an Enter and which ones don't.)
For example, if one channel is 3 dB low, would you rather?: - enter the menu, dial up +3 dB, then exit to see if you got it right (repeat if your calculation was wrong)
- go into the "level adjust" screen, click the "up" button slowly, while watching the meter, and stop when the meter reads "0"
Entering a list of corrections, when you know what they are, is easier if you can just punch them all in.... But manually creating a flat curve on an RTA, where the bands interact with each other, is far easier if you can watch what your changes do in real-time.... (And some people very much prefer to hear what various surround sound options sound like so they can decide which one to use.) As I mentioned, we did offer a setup app which allows you to download, edit, and upload all of the settings for the XMC-1 at once.
(And it will eventually be updated for the RMC-1.)
Many cases is actually VERY rare cases.. Mostly you want to edit the setup then try it. Having a fast, problem free experience while doing so. Sorry, but the live changes just make it a pain in the **.. I would guess this is a engineer vs user issue.. You should have to exit setup to see/hear changes or atleast make some active choice (maybe press enter/select) to change something while in setup. It’s better if you exit setup and have an option to return to the same settings place you where before exiting. Without regards to implementation complexity, this is the most user friendly implementation: - Timed Acceptance - Any change that has multiple selections and scrolling. For example, sound format. This allows scrolling to the selected item and then after, say 3 seconds, takes affect. There has been implemented on some items.
- Immediate - Any volume change, trim, level, and other changes that do not incur handshakes.
When handshaking occurs, users experience an unresponsive product that stacks up the changes. Multi-second delays between items result in overshoot. I know there are more pressing issues, but the UI responsiveness has a tremendous effect on perceived quality. - Rich
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,004
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Post by KeithL on Sept 16, 2019 10:54:26 GMT -5
Putting all the hyperbole aside... we would be interested in hearing about "what everybody else is really doing".... And "everybody" does Not mean "what everyone announced at CEDIA" or "what a few reviewers really liked"....
For example, we would love to know how many people have actually PAID the extra $100 to add the Auro 3D option to their high-end Marantz processor.
From my personal experience, on our "support and question lines", the situation has clearly changed..... When the RMC-1 (and the Atmos upgrade for the XMC-1) were in development, before Dolby restricted the use of other commercial upmixers with Dolby content, I received a lot of inquiries about Auro 3D... Then, when Dolby announced the restrictions against using Auro 3D with Dolby content, those inquiries dropped to almost none... Now that those restrictions are again lifted, we'll ALL see how much market Auro can win back again....
And, if there is enough serious interest, then we'll consider adding it.... But that's only going to happen if we see a lot of serious interest...
We can't afford to spend a lot of time and money on development simply to "add one more logo to the trophy page" - or to add a feature that only a few people will actually use.
www.stormaudio.com/media/auro3d_home_theater_setup_guidelines_v8_20170531__049790400_1458_13062017.pdfThis has a little snippet of why Auro chose to not supply Auromax for home audio and provides an email to inquire about it. I wrote a quick message that I would like them to reconsider with all the new systems coming into the mix. If you’re interested in their 20.1 or larger layout it doesn’t hurt to show it so maybe in the future they reevaluate. I hope Emotiva themselves would contact them showing interest. I think Emotiva has made their position clear regarding Auro despite what the rest of the industry is doing. Given what I saw at CEDIA with what’s coming out, I think the RMC1 is going to have some very strong competition moving forward and the company’s rigidity and slow response will come to a head. Having listened to the Auro post processing, I very much enjoyed the experience.
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Post by hahnsoulo on Sept 16, 2019 11:06:38 GMT -5
In that case, another option would be to simply ignore certain input commands that are received when the system is in a "waiting" state. So if the system is currently waiting for some other process to finish and a volume up input command is received, instead of waiting X seconds for the other thing to finish, and then finally servicing the queued volume up command like it does now, it would simply ignore the volume up command completely. Then once the system is no longer in a waiting state it can service new volume change commands that come in. In other words, the volume can only be changed if the system is currently in a state where the volume can be changed immediately. If the system is not in such a state, then the volume change command is simply ignored. This is both a safety mechanism to prevent blown speakers, and it's also a usability feature because, again, volume changes should always have an immediately feedback loop. Unfortunately, while that makes sense from a logical perspective, it isn't all that simple to program. The commands all come in the same place... so, in order to assign them with priorities, you must first process all of them - to see what they are.
So now you need a separate processor, including hardware and code, to "process the incoming commands to decide in what order they should be processed".
(It's certainly possible - but it adds another layer of complexity and another layer of processing.)
One suggestion I'd make is for that input queue to be a priority queue with certain types of inputs being a higher priority than others. For instance, if it gets into a situation where it's waiting for seconds at a time, then volume up or down input commands should jump to the front of the queue and be serviced immediately instead of waiting for whatever other thing to finish. This is specifically because of what was already mentioned. If you hold down the volume up button and nothing happens, and then 5 seconds later all those volume change commands finally get processed and the volume starts increasing, you have no way to stop it if it starts getting too loud. Volume control is one of the few input types that absolutely needs an immediate feedback loop. People could inadvertently blow speakers if they can't run across the room and switch off their processor in time when this happens.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,004
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Post by KeithL on Sept 16, 2019 11:26:15 GMT -5
XMC-1 Remote SETUP App.
Note that this is a SETUP app for the XMC-1. It is different from the Remote Control App. It connects via Ethernet (so you need to be plugged in).
It allows you to download the entire configuration, make changes more or less in the form of a spreadsheet, then save your changes, or upload them back to the XMC-1.
Note that this was never officially a full release...
- there is no documentation or support (although it's rather intuitive)
- there are at least a few minor bugs - it ONLY works in Windows - if there is ever an update you'll probably have to uninstall it manually before installing the update
This will also work, with some obvious omissions, with the RMC-1 (at your own risk).
There will eventually be an updated version for the RMC-1.
We actually have a Setup App for the XMC-1 that lets you enter all the information and then "dump" it into the unit all at once. (I'm sure we'll be updating that for the RMC-1 as well.)
Where do we find this "app"?
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