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Post by nospam on Sept 16, 2019 11:56:17 GMT -5
Putting all the hyperbole aside... we would be interested in hearing about "what everybody else is really doing".... And "everybody" does Not mean "what everyone announced at CEDIA" or "what a few reviewers really liked"....
For example, we would love to know how many people have actually PAID the extra $100 to add the Auro 3D option to their high-end Marantz processor. It was/is actually $199 to add it for the Marantz AV8802 and many did. Fewer did for the lower end models. It has been included at a no-cost option since the 2018 models: Denon AVR models ≥X4400H, Marantz AVR models ≥SR7012, and Marantz AVP models ≥AV7704. We can't afford to spend a lot of time and money on development simply to "add one more logo to the trophy page" - or to add a feature that only a few people will actually use.
I agree regarding Auro3D. It would be a mistake to take this stance in regards to Dts:X Pro.
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Post by nospam on Sept 16, 2019 12:51:28 GMT -5
Both Emotiva (2x ADSP-SC587) and Denon/Marantz (2x ADSP-21587) utilize ADI's Griffin Lite SHARC+ DSPs. The only difference between the two being the ARM co-processor utilized by Emotiva to run their linux OS. D+M utilIzes a separate processor for their OS (standard across their line-up ) I believe I was incorrect regarding the Griffin Lite's ARM co-processors being used for the OS. Dan Laufman reported this: Unfortunately, while that makes sense from a logical perspective, it isn't all that simple to program. The commands all come in the same place... so, in order to assign them with priorities, you must first process all of them - to see what they are.
So now you need a separate processor, including hardware and code, to "process the incoming commands to decide in what order they should be processed".
(It's certainly possible - but it adds another layer of complexity and another layer of processing.)
I sympathize, but no other manufacturers are having these issues. In the end the whys don't matter, if the user experience continues to be below par. Are you saying the sluggishness is a limitation of the hardware? Dan and Lonnie have been evangelizing the RMC hardware platform (up until this latest CEDIA which was not attended). Hanging their hat on the fact that the RMC-1 is not using any MDS solutions: I am rooting for Emotiva's success. But I am most interested in solutions, not explanations.
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Post by ttocs on Sept 16, 2019 12:55:09 GMT -5
XMC-1 Remote SETUP App.
Note that this is a SETUP app for the XMC-1. It is different from the Remote Control App. It connects via Ethernet (so you need to be plugged in).
It allows you to download the entire configuration, make changes more or less in the form of a spreadsheet, then save your changes, or upload them back to the XMC-1.
Note that this was never officially a full release...
- there is no documentation or support (although it's rather intuitive)
- there are at least a few minor bugs - it ONLY works in Windows - if there is ever an update you'll probably have to uninstall it manually before installing the update
This will also work, with some obvious omissions, with the RMC-1 (at your own risk).
There will eventually be an updated version for the RMC-1.
Where do we find this "app"? So, where do I find the disclaimers? Thanks very much Keith! This oughta be fun!
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Sept 16, 2019 13:52:02 GMT -5
The bottom line is that we prioritize how the RMC-1 sounds far above how quickly the menu allows you to change setup entries. There are certain situations where there are longer delays than necessary - and we are currently working on reducing those when we can. There are also areas in which the speed is limited to a degree by the way we decided to implement the menu system (with "live update"). While there is a down-side to doing it this way, and some other vendors have chosen the alternative method, which is sometimes more responsive, we believe that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
However, we most certainly aren't looking for sympathy.... From all reports the RMC-1 sounds significantly better than other processors costing far more.... We consider this to be a ringing validation of our design choices.... We also consider sound quality to be far and away the single most important part of "the user experience"....
(So, if the cost of delivering better sound is that it takes a bit longer to update the configuration, we simply don't consider that something we need to apologize for.)
Both Emotiva (2x ADSP-SC587) and Denon/Marantz (2x ADSP-21587) utilize ADI's Griffin Lite SHARC+ DSPs. The only difference between the two being the ARM co-processor utilized by Emotiva to run their linux OS. D+M utilIzes a separate processor for their OS (standard across their line-up ) I believe I was incorrect regarding the Griffin Lite's ARM co-processors being used for the OS. Dan Laufman reported this: Unfortunately, while that makes sense from a logical perspective, it isn't all that simple to program. The commands all come in the same place... so, in order to assign them with priorities, you must first process all of them - to see what they are.
So now you need a separate processor, including hardware and code, to "process the incoming commands to decide in what order they should be processed".
(It's certainly possible - but it adds another layer of complexity and another layer of processing.)
I sympathize, but no other manufacturers are having these issues. In the end the whys don't matter, if the user experience continues to be below par. Are you saying the sluggishness is a limitation of the hardware? Dan and Lonnie have been evangelizing the RMC hardware platform (up until this latest CEDIA which was not attended). Hanging their hat on the fact that the RMC-1 is not using any MDS solutions: I am routing for Emotiva's success. But I am most interested in solutions, not explanations.
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Sept 16, 2019 14:00:43 GMT -5
I stand corrected... although I would still love to see an actual number... or a percentage... To be honest, I don't personally have a strong opinion whether Auro 3D will become more popular, or will simply fade away. It's distinctly possible that, as more movie producers start taking full advantage of the capabilities of Atmos, there is less reason to worry about other upmixers.
However, at this point, adding it to an existing design would entail a significant amount of work, so we won't be doing it unless it gains significantly in popularity.
As for DTS:X Pro, I suspect that it will eventually become popular enough to become a serious standard, and that we will eventually begin including it in future products. However, at this point, that also remains to be seen.
At one time in history DTS dominated the home disc market...
Then Dolby Labs essentially took over the field with Atmos... DTS:X Pro is DTS bid to again tie the race with Dolby Atmos... And we're all waiting to see how well they succeed...
(Our goal is always simply to spend the money where it will do the most good... and buy the most actual functionality for our customers.)
Putting all the hyperbole aside... we would be interested in hearing about "what everybody else is really doing".... And "everybody" does Not mean "what everyone announced at CEDIA" or "what a few reviewers really liked"....
For example, we would love to know how many people have actually PAID the extra $100 to add the Auro 3D option to their high-end Marantz processor. It was/is actually $199 to add it for the Marantz AV8802 and many did. Fewer did for the lower end models. It has been included at a no-cost option since the 2018 models: Denon AVR models ≥X4400H, Marantz AVR models ≥SR7012, and Marantz AVP models ≥AV7704. We can't afford to spend a lot of time and money on development simply to "add one more logo to the trophy page" - or to add a feature that only a few people will actually use.
I agree regarding Auro3D. It would be a mistake to take this stance in regards to Dts:X Pro.
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 16, 2019 14:26:51 GMT -5
I stand corrected... although I would still love to see an actual number... or a percentage... To be honest, I don't personally have a strong opinion whether Auro 3D will become more popular, or will simply fade away. It's distinctly possible that, as more movie producers start taking full advantage of the capabilities of Atmos, there is less reason to worry about other upmixers.
However, at this point, adding it to an existing design would entail a significant amount of work, so we won't be doing it unless it gains significantly in popularity.
As for DTS:X Pro, I suspect that it will eventually become popular enough to become a serious standard, and that we will eventually begin including it in future products. However, at this point, that also remains to be seen.
At one time in history DTS dominated the home disc market...
Then Dolby Labs essentially took over the field with Atmos... DTS:X Pro is DTS bid to again tie the race with Dolby Atmos... And we're all waiting to see how well they succeed...
(Our goal is always simply to spend the money where it will do the most good... and buy the most actual functionality for our customers.)
It was/is actually $199 to add it for the Marantz AV8802 and many did. Fewer did for the lower end models. It has been included at a no-cost option since the 2018 models: Denon AVR models ≥X4400H, Marantz AVR models ≥SR7012, and Marantz AVP models ≥AV7704. I agree regarding Auro3D. It would be a mistake to take this stance in regards to Dts:X Pro. Users need ATMOS to have competition; otherwise, ATMOS will have a monopoly and make manufacturer's do dumb things like "not allowing" use of competitive upmixers with their content. It's the price of being in this business. Don't want to see RMC-1 being a "Dolby Box" for 3D immersive sound.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 15:28:24 GMT -5
Whether Auro will prevail on the market in the future, or whether you like Auro or not, etc., the questions does not arise here. The RMC-1 was officially announced at CES in 2017, with the comment, that an Auro update will be available as an option. That Emotiva now littered here, I am completely incomprehensible. And here in the forum, there are enough prospects for Auro. I stand corrected... although I would still love to see an actual number... or a percentage... To be honest, I don't personally have a strong opinion whether Auro 3D will become more popular, or will simply fade away. It's distinctly possible that, as more movie producers start taking full advantage of the capabilities of Atmos, there is less reason to worry about other upmixers.
However, at this point, adding it to an existing design would entail a significant amount of work, so we won't be doing it unless it gains significantly in popularity.
As for DTS:X Pro, I suspect that it will eventually become popular enough to become a serious standard, and that we will eventually begin including it in future products. However, at this point, that also remains to be seen.
At one time in history DTS dominated the home disc market...
Then Dolby Labs essentially took over the field with Atmos... DTS:X Pro is DTS bid to again tie the race with Dolby Atmos... And we're all waiting to see how well they succeed...
(Our goal is always simply to spend the money where it will do the most good... and buy the most actual functionality for our customers.)
It was/is actually $199 to add it for the Marantz AV8802 and many did. Fewer did for the lower end models. It has been included at a no-cost option since the 2018 models: Denon AVR models ≥X4400H, Marantz AVR models ≥SR7012, and Marantz AVP models ≥AV7704. I agree regarding Auro3D. It would be a mistake to take this stance in regards to Dts:X Pro.
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richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 859
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Post by richb on Sept 16, 2019 15:45:27 GMT -5
I know that Dirac is not yet finalized but is there any update on the sample rate? Will it be at 96kHz?
- Rich
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Post by tagmanz on Sept 16, 2019 16:14:28 GMT -5
The bottom line is that we prioritize how the RMC-1 sounds far above how quickly the menu allows you to change setup entries. There are certain situations where there are longer delays than necessary - and we are currently working on reducing those when we can. There are also areas in which the speed is limited to a degree by the way we decided to implement the menu system (with "live update"). While there is a down-side to doing it this way, and some other vendors have chosen the alternative method, which is sometimes more responsive, we believe that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. I sympathize, but no other manufacturers are having these issues. In the end the whys don't matter, if the user experience continues to be below par. I understand both sides of this argument and Keith, while I agree that sound quality should be given the highest priority, after all it is the end goal of any audio preamp to produce audio, it shouldn't come at the expense of end usability. While it seems Emotiva are championing the live update approach to the menu system, there is a growing number of users here requesting an alternative approach or at least a hybrid of the two. Surely there must come a point when you will need to reevaluate? For now we have to trust in Emotiva when you say you are working to improve delays. From the reports here so far it appears you have already made good progress in previous FW revisions so here is hoping you can satisfy the masses.
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Post by nospam on Sept 16, 2019 17:29:31 GMT -5
The bottom line is that we prioritize how the RMC-1 sounds far above how quickly the menu allows you to change setup entries. Aside from Emotiva's engineering resource allocation, these two things (SQ and UI) are mutually exclusive. There are certain situations where there are longer delays than necessary - and we are currently working on reducing those when we can. There are also areas in which the speed is limited to a degree by the way we decided to implement the menu system (with "live update"). While there is a down-side to doing it this way, and some other vendors have chosen the alternative method, which is sometimes more responsive, we believe that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
While it seems Emotiva are championing the live update approach to the menu system, there is a growing number of users here requesting an alternative approach or at least a hybrid of the two. Surely there must come a point when you will need to reevaluate? I have to agree with tagmanz. I have experienced a large number and wide variety of processors. The majority of the current SSPs employ a hybrid where some items are applied in realtime (master volume, channel levels & distance/delay, bass management/crossovers, etc.). Others require one to back out of a sub menu to be applied. I do look forward to these optimizations KeithL listed. The majority could be satisfied once complete.
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Post by thrillcat on Sept 16, 2019 18:24:41 GMT -5
The bottom line is that we prioritize how the RMC-1 sounds far above how quickly the menu allows you to change setup entries. There are certain situations where there are longer delays than necessary - and we are currently working on reducing those when we can. There are also areas in which the speed is limited to a degree by the way we decided to implement the menu system (with "live update"). While there is a down-side to doing it this way, and some other vendors have chosen the alternative method, which is sometimes more responsive, we believe that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
While it seems Emotiva are championing the live update approach to the menu system, there is a growing number of users here requesting an alternative approach or at least a hybrid of the two. Surely there must come a point when you will need to reevaluate? I think you’re underestimating Emotiva’s customer base. I don’t think 10 people on their forum is going to be considered a “critical mass” worthy of re-coding their menu system.
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Post by tagmanz on Sept 16, 2019 19:55:18 GMT -5
While it seems Emotiva are championing the live update approach to the menu system, there is a growing number of users here requesting an alternative approach or at least a hybrid of the two. Surely there must come a point when you will need to reevaluate? I think you’re underestimating Emotiva’s customer base. I don’t think 10 people on their forum is going to be considered a “critical mass” worthy of re-coding their menu system. No and that's why I went on to say that one needs to trust in the planned changes Keith spoke of earlier. Look I agree that most of the comments being made here on the lounge are from a handful of people that disproportionately represent the Emotiva customer base. This is true of all criticisms, suggestions or feature requests that are made here not just the menu topic.
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Post by dimora on Sept 16, 2019 20:51:40 GMT -5
I’m fine with the live updates in the menus as-is. I’m rarely in the menu /setup system...it’s kind of a 1 and done.
You need to pick your battles, folks.
Emo needs to focus on the basics, like Bugs, input switching speed and DIRAC.
When is DIRAC going to happen, Keith or Lonnie?
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Post by cwt on Sept 17, 2019 1:48:17 GMT -5
I’m fine with the live updates in the menus as-is. I’m rarely in the menu /setup system...it’s kind of a 1 and done. You need to pick your battles, folks. Emo needs to focus on the basics, like Bugs, input switching speed and DIRAC. When is DIRAC going to happen, Keith or Lonnie? Yes ; if theres 1 thing Ive experienced over many gui's and eventually gotten used to [even prioritised how to interact with differing methods thus becoming 2nd nature] its sub menu interaction For those coming from a D and M Holdings product it must be a shock ; those coming from a XMC1 not so much . The volume control is far and away what I would want some alacrity from as has been said Otherwise a few direct preset buttons for dsp modes and the rest buried in the menus ;initial set then forget ..
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hi
Minor Hero
Posts: 48
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Post by hi on Sept 17, 2019 3:31:28 GMT -5
KeithL or Lonnie As i understand the outputs of the rmc-1 are all identical. So there is a stream from the dsp to the respective dac.
Would it be possible to add some kind of routing that every generated stream / channel can be assigned / directed to every physical output like on a speaker management device?
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Post by EmoRick on Sept 17, 2019 3:35:19 GMT -5
In the last two week I install and setup my XMC-2. So I play a lot with the setup options. Many setting changes so many visits to setup menu. I have to admit not once I have think the system was slow. I agree it’s not fast but all setup change seem ok with me. There is always some room for improvement. Thats true for everything but call me crazy, I like the menu system.
Coming from Anthem MRX-720 with a more “traditional” menu. I think the XMC-2 menu is more efficient, easier and quicker to go where you want. It’s not a HD wow menu but for my part I found the logic and usability pretty good.
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 17, 2019 11:01:14 GMT -5
No sound on power up while playing disc 2K movies. Happen twice (9/8 and 9/16). Notice other RMC-1 owners, including deewan who reported this issue months ago, have noted this on avsforum thread and their solution was to go into the movie's disc menu and just pick another audio format. So far 4 RMC-1 owners have reported this over multiple FW releases. I've encounter this 5 times so far.
Last night I watched 2K disc "Return to Me" (good Dean Martin and Sinatra music) on LG C8 77" OLED. Upon power up, there was silence. Audio format was PCM5.1/DD Surround. Turn OPPO off and on and audio came back, but audio format changed to dts HDMA 5.1/dts Neural:X. Here's the config's for 9/8 and 9/16: 9/8 Audio Only Config: OPPO203/Audio_Only_Out ---> Input1/RMC-1 OPPO203/Main_V/A_Out ---> Input4/LG C8 77" OLED Kung Foo Panda, 2k, PCM5.1/dts Neural:X, 1080p/24 8b SDR (audio only Video read out from RMC-1 display panel) Tried to fix no audio by: * Reset OPPO = still no audio * Reset RMC-1 (movie still running): ok, got sound, but OPPO froze *Reset OPPO: got audio back no more issues 9/16 Config w. Vertex2: OPPO203/Main_V/A_Out ---> Input1/RMC-1 RMC-1/Out1 --->Input1/Vertex2/Out1 --->--->Input2/JVC600 Projector RMC-1/Out2 --->Input0/Vertex2/Out0 --->Input1/LG_C8_77"_OLED Vertex2/Audio_Out ---> Input2/RMC-1 (ARC audio from LG ... have not tested this, yet) 2K movie Return to Me, PCM5.1/DD_Surround, 2160/24 12bits YCbCr, 444, SDR: no audio upon power up Tried to get audio to work again by: *OPPO rewind then play: No audio *OPPO Off/On: audio worked, but audio changed from Dolby to dts HDMA5.1/dts Neural:X Note: ---> 18MHz 6ft HD Fury Cable --->---> 18MHz 33ft fiber RUIPRO Cable
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Post by deewan on Sept 17, 2019 11:13:47 GMT -5
2K movie Return to Me, PCM5.1/DD_Surround, 2160/24 12bits YCbCr, 444, SDR: no audio upon power up Tried to get audio to work again by: *OPPO rewind then play: No audio *OPPO Off/On: audio worked, but audio changed from Dolby to dts HDMA5.1/dts Neural:X What I believe is happening here is the RMC is not picking up on the DTS audio track being received. The RMC is stuck on the PCM/Dolby setting and can't (or doesn't want to) output the DTS sound.... or at least that is what the RMC info suggests. I'm glad you were able to get audio working, another solution and potentially faster solution than restarting the Oppo (if you had not already read this suggestion) * Change the audio track the Oppo is outputing to stereo. * Let the RMC receive the stereo signal and start playing the stereo audio * Hit the audio button on the Oppo again and switch to the DTS track. That normally forces the RMC to pickup the DTS track and fixes this audio issue and is a bit faster than restarting a device.
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 17, 2019 11:37:34 GMT -5
2K movie Return to Me, PCM5.1/DD_Surround, 2160/24 12bits YCbCr, 444, SDR: no audio upon power up Tried to get audio to work again by: *OPPO rewind then play: No audio *OPPO Off/On: audio worked, but audio changed from Dolby to dts HDMA5.1/dts Neural:X What I believe is happening here is the RMC is not picking up on the DTS audio track being received. The RMC is stuck on the PCM/Dolby setting and can't (or doesn't want to) output the DTS sound.... or at least that is what the RMC info suggests. I'm glad you were able to get audio working, another solution and potentially faster solution than restarting the Oppo (if you had not already read this suggestion) * Change the audio track the Oppo is outputing to stereo. * Let the RMC receive the stereo signal and start playing the stereo audio * Hit the audio button on the Oppo again and switch to the DTS track. That normally forces the RMC to pickup the DTS track and fixes this audio issue and is a bit faster than restarting a device. Thx for posting about this in the past. I'll try your recommendation ... definitely faster than powering devices off and on.
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Lsc
Emo VIPs
Posts: 3,348
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Post by Lsc on Sept 17, 2019 12:25:23 GMT -5
2K movie Return to Me, PCM5.1/DD_Surround, 2160/24 12bits YCbCr, 444, SDR: no audio upon power up Tried to get audio to work again by: *OPPO rewind then play: No audio *OPPO Off/On: audio worked, but audio changed from Dolby to dts HDMA5.1/dts Neural:X What I believe is happening here is the RMC is not picking up on the DTS audio track being received. The RMC is stuck on the PCM/Dolby setting and can't (or doesn't want to) output the DTS sound.... or at least that is what the RMC info suggests. I'm glad you were able to get audio working, another solution and potentially faster solution than restarting the Oppo (if you had not already read this suggestion) * Change the audio track the Oppo is outputing to stereo. * Let the RMC receive the stereo signal and start playing the stereo audio * Hit the audio button on the Oppo again and switch to the DTS track. That normally forces the RMC to pickup the DTS track and fixes this audio issue and is a bit faster than restarting a device. This happened to me and my XMC2 when I first put in a DTS movie. DTS doesn’t sound as good in the XMC2 vs Dolby Atmos.
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