KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 28, 2020 10:45:30 GMT -5
Unfortunately, to be quite blunt, we made a few promises based on our expectations of what Dirac had promised to deliver to us... which turned out not to be such a great idea.
(Sadly, since we only license the technology from Dirac, we are limited by the limitations of their technology, and by what they provide to us.)
However, I would remind everyone that Dirac Live is, at its heart, a technology designed to alter the audio signal, in order to make your system and room sound better. You can forget about whether it delivers a 96k signal without altering it or not - it's intended to alter the signal.
Therefore, rather than worrying pointlessly about things like what sample rate it's running at, you should focus on whether it makes your system sound better.
My instant reaction is 1. What a waste of such a capable unit by not going to 96kHz+ 2. I bought a step change unit and expect it to be that and more via the expansion modules......Im still pretty optimistic it will be that. I also purchased it knowing it would be a development/work in progress. 3. Always keep your promises: ".....Dirac Live automatic room correction, running on all 16 channels at a full 96 kHz sample rate, establishes the perfect synergy between the RMC-1, the listening room, and the rest of the system......" Having said that I have always been of the belief......get a stable system that just works well and is responsive, Dirac can come a little later. Most of the Devices are set to 48 not 96. If you can hear this difference, I don't know. for me it sounds a bit like, they promised 96, so get me 96 or i return the device. It's here the same as for the FW - let them get it out first - and we can complain later. personally, I don't care about Dirac until this Box is stable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2020 10:59:21 GMT -5
What I want from the RMC-1/Dirac solution is that when movies actually start using higher frequency/Bitrates (that both BD and 4kBD allow for) I don't want to clip or down convert a 192/24 or 96/24 signal to 48/24 for processing. Not a real/big problem now but...
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 28, 2020 11:17:48 GMT -5
I agree.... a DAC with a 140 dB S/N is technically superior to one with a 130 dB S/N.... in terms of S/N. And a DAC that has a better DNR/SNR/THD is superior.... in terms of DNR, SNR, and THD.
(As long as some other important performance characteristic wasn't sacrificed to get those numbers.)
However, there are still the twin questions of context and the point of diminishing returns.
It's also obvious to me that, from a technical perspective, a DAC that is flat to 10 mHz is superior to one that is only flat to 50 kHz... Yet, for some reason, you didn't mention that at all. Could the reason be that, in that case, you agree that the difference would be totally pointless in an audio application?
Unfortunately, when it comes to DACs, we still lack a complete understanding of how all the measurements correlate to what we hear. You can compare two DACs, both of which have excellent frequency response, noise performance, and THD... and find that they sound quite different. Then, when you compare their response to transients, you find that they have very different filter characteristics. This is NOT "some esoteric thing that some people imagine is there". The differences are quite obvious and easy to observe on an oscilloscope trace. And, yes, when people listen to them, they hear differences... (So far this only suggests that the differences we're hearing correlate to the filter differences we're measuring.)
You seem to have chosen to focus on a few very specific measurements... But, when it comes to DACs, those few don't seem to be quite sufficient to completely describe the situation of what we hear... So perhaps it's not "safe to set all the other stuff aside"..... Hmmmmm.....
Well 140db might be the theoretical top for a very young person in certain frequencies (mid range). Normal young to middle aged persons 35-55 does not have this range. Also most higher volumes like +110db would no be recommended to listen to even though you ”can” hear it. A link on the wiki page also goes to a site where you get a explanation why +48khz and 24bit playback is unnecessary and even unwanted. It explains that you get audio distortions when playing high sampled sound. Also explaining that 24 bit is unnecessary, even though giving a higher dynamic range, because the improvements happens beyond human hearing. It also says that having high sample rate and bit rate is good when recording and mixing. I have not listen to those units that are ”way better”. I have read several reviews. Although Sonica is very good, it is not the best sounding streamer around according to several reviews. Actually most streamers have lesser DAC’s than Sonica. Both better and worse ones. Devices with ESS 9038 will win specs most times unless badly implemented. But anyway, this is a moot point because each will have their prefered sound signature. I’m glad you are happy with your Sonica. I’m not surpriced it sounds great. Oppo always made great devices. As I wrote before, I almost bought it myself. I would probably have owned one unless Oppo wouldn’t have closed business. It's very simple to me. all other factors aside, a DAC that has a better DNR/SNR/THD is a superior DAC... it really is that simple. Now the rest of the picture is a function of the quality of the analog design, any "tricks" played in filtering, and a purely subjective "feeling". We then get into differences that people describe in esoteric terns, but things you can measure on a BENCH with a spectrum analyzer... those are real differences. Noise multiples throughout a system, so, things that start out small can get bigger.
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Post by SOWK on Jan 28, 2020 13:12:30 GMT -5
Sounds like we are getting 48Khz Dirac.... lol.
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Post by Gerard on Jan 28, 2020 13:21:36 GMT -5
Sounds like we are getting 48Khz Dirac.... lol. They need to clarify ASAP. If that is the case the RMC-1 is going back. I'll go Storm Audio or the new JBL maybe.
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richb
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Post by richb on Jan 28, 2020 13:51:58 GMT -5
In my view, the purpose of running Dirac at higher rates are two fold. Transparency and marketing. Marketing would be a big win. Transparency is harder to quantify.
I like to compare Direct mode with PEQ with no filters, Surround, and Dirac with curtains set to below 25Hz to assess transparency. The better they compare the closer that all start at the performance limits of the processor.
Ideally, real-time down-conversion is transparent. 24-bit bit depth is likely support by Dirac and processing could be processed for minimal loss of signal to noise.
- Rich
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Post by garbulky on Jan 28, 2020 13:58:32 GMT -5
Sounds like we are getting 48Khz Dirac.... lol. They need to clarify ASAP. If that is the case the RMC-1 is going back. I'll go Storm Audio or the new JBL maybe. If you dont plan to use dirac it will always be full res. I'm nit sure what res dirac is but I would clarify with the other companies that DIRAC runs at 96khz.
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Post by Gerard on Jan 28, 2020 14:20:05 GMT -5
They need to clarify ASAP. If that is the case the RMC-1 is going back. I'll go Storm Audio or the new JBL maybe. If you dont plan to use dirac it will always be full res. I'm nit sure what res dirac is but I would clarify with the other companies that DIRAC runs at 96khz. Yes, My understanding is that other similar devises will be running at 24/96. It has been alluded to in prior posts and from the statement above that the RMC-1 although imagined to run at that spec will not be running at that spec. I chose this device based on DIRAC running at 24/96
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 28, 2020 14:26:50 GMT -5
On that note... just FYI...
(From the current manual for the Monoprice HTP-1....)
Engaging ANY surround sound modes results in the sample rate being limited to 48k. The Dirac Room Correction filter limits the sample rates to 48 kHz.
They need to clarify ASAP. If that is the case the RMC-1 is going back. I'll go Storm Audio or the new JBL maybe. If you dont plan to use dirac it will always be full res. I'm nit sure what res dirac is but I would clarify with the other companies that DIRAC runs at 96khz.
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Post by hsamwel on Jan 28, 2020 14:27:34 GMT -5
Sounds like we are getting 48Khz Dirac.... lol. They need to clarify ASAP. If that is the case the RMC-1 is going back. I'll go Storm Audio or the new JBL maybe. Excuse my ignorance, but what’s the need to do ANYTHING above 48khz??? Outside human hearing and.. How many speakers produce any sound above 48khz? I have seen very few actually.
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Post by SOWK on Jan 28, 2020 14:34:29 GMT -5
On that note... just FYI...
(From the current manual for the Monoprice HTP-1....)
Engaging ANY surround sound modes results in the sample rate being limited to 48k. The Dirac Room Correction filter limits the sample rates to 48 kHz.
If you dont plan to use dirac it will always be full res. I'm nit sure what res dirac is but I would clarify with the other companies that DIRAC runs at 96khz. While I am still happy with my RMC-1... Difference is Emotiva originally mentioned it was going to be 192kHz, then 96kHz, and now hinting it will only be 48kHz. Did Monoprice promise the same?
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Post by andersmi on Jan 28, 2020 14:35:31 GMT -5
On that note... just FYI...
(From the current manual for the Monoprice HTP-1....)
Engaging ANY surround sound modes results in the sample rate being limited to 48k. The Dirac Room Correction filter limits the sample rates to 48 kHz.
If you dont plan to use dirac it will always be full res. I'm nit sure what res dirac is but I would clarify with the other companies that DIRAC runs at 96khz. MiniDSP is able to run 24/96 so Dirac is able to do this. www.minidsp.com/dirac-seriesPlease explain why the Rmc-1 suddenly can't do this when you first expected it to be able to run 192 then 96 and now 48?
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Post by SOWK on Jan 28, 2020 14:57:21 GMT -5
How close is Firmware 1.8?
If more than 2 weeks out I will install the beta 1.7.6 Thank you in advance.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jan 28, 2020 15:14:47 GMT -5
I don't understand what has people thinking Emotiva promised 96k w/Dirac. There's nothing to that effect on the product page, and at the last Emofest I recall the discussion being that Emotiva would like to have 96k but it wasn't final and was up to Dirac. I believe that was in my notes that were published here. Maybe there was some later interview somewhere with Dan commenting on it, but to me - if it's not on the product page as a feature when I place my order - I would not count on it or be disappointed if it's not 96k. I doubt it would make any difference in the sound anyway.
Mark
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richb
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Post by richb on Jan 28, 2020 15:17:12 GMT -5
It's also obvious to me that, from a technical perspective, a DAC that is flat to 10 mHz is superior to one that is only flat to 50 kHz... Yet, for some reason, you didn't mention that at all. Could the reason be that, in that case, you agree that the difference would be totally pointless in an audio application? Unfortunately, when it comes to DACs, we still lack a complete understanding of how all the measurements correlate to what we hear. You can compare two DACs, both of which have excellent frequency response, noise performance, and THD... and find that they sound quite different. Then, when you compare their response to transients, you find that they have very different filter characteristics. This is NOT "some esoteric thing that some people imagine is there". The differences are quite obvious and easy to observe on an oscilloscope trace. And, yes, when people listen to them, they hear differences... (So far this only suggests that the differences we're hearing correlate to the filter differences we're measuring.)
Absolutely true. It is not very difficult to change the filters on the Oppo 205 using the app and hear the difference between say, minimum phase fast and linear phase fast. For some reason, the vast majority of people and reviewers ignore the obvious affect of filters. - Rich
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Post by SOWK on Jan 28, 2020 15:23:54 GMT -5
I don't understand what has people thinking Emotiva promised 96k w/Dirac. There's nothing to that effect on the product page, and at the last Emofest I recall the discussion being that Emotiva would like to have 96k but it wasn't final and was up to Dirac. I believe that was in my notes that were published here. Maybe there was some later interview somewhere with Dan commenting on it, but to me - if it's not on the product page as a feature when I place my order - I would not count on it or be disappointed if it's not 96k. I doubt it would make any difference in the sound anyway. Mark Let's say they never release any expansion slot modules... You shouldn't be upset over that either then based on your point of view. If they dont have channel expansion modules in two years time. I will sell everything Emotiva I own.
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Post by andersmi on Jan 28, 2020 15:26:40 GMT -5
I don't understand what has people thinking Emotiva promised 96k w/Dirac. There's nothing to that effect on the product page, and at the last Emofest I recall the discussion being that Emotiva would like to have 96k but it wasn't final and was up to Dirac. I believe that was in my notes that were published here. Maybe there was some later interview somewhere with Dan commenting on it, but to me - if it's not on the product page as a feature when I place my order - I would not count on it or be disappointed if it's not 96k. I doubt it would make any difference in the sound anyway. Mark I'm pretty sure it have been on the product page, but they have removed it.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 28, 2020 15:35:25 GMT -5
I'm going to offer you some off-the-cuff reality here....
The portion of the firmware code dedicated to processing the Dirac correction filters takes up a significant amount of memory and uses a significant amount of processing power...
Therefore, the sample rate at which it will be able to operate depends on how powerful the processor itself is, and on how the code is written.
The predictions we made early on were based largely on the information we received from Dirac - about the code we then expected to receive from them. Since then, a lot has changed, and the code we finally received from them was quite different than what was originally promised or expected. Because of this, some of our early expectations, based on information that is now outdated, may also have to be changed.
Early on, we had the choice of offering you the best information we had at the time, or of saying nothing, and hearing endless complaints that we don't share enough information with our customers. As usual, we chose to share what we knew at the time... and, as sometimes happens, previously unexpected changes may force us to revise those early expectations.
We will provide you with the final details as soon as we finalize the Dirac code and the interface that connects it to the RMC-1. (We are finally very close to this... so please bear with us just a little bit longer.)
I will again remind everyone that the purpose of Dirac is to make significant changes to your audio signal - all aimed toward improving the sound of your system. If you really want to listen to your original high-res audio sources, with the utmost accuracy, you will use Reference Stereo mode, and bypass Dirac along with all the other available types of processing.
And, if you do choose to run Dirac, because you expect it to deliver a significant improvement, then you should focus on the results, rather than on the details about how they are achieved. On that note... just FYI... (From the current manual for the Monoprice HTP-1....)
Engaging ANY surround sound modes results in the sample rate being limited to 48k. The Dirac Room Correction filter limits the sample rates to 48 kHz.
MiniDSP is able to run 24/96 so Dirac is able to do this. www.minidsp.com/dirac-seriesPlease explain why the Rmc-1 suddenly can't do this when you first expected it to be able to run 192 then 96 and now 48?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2020 15:44:59 GMT -5
I posted it a lot more times. Here are the official promises of Emotiva at that time. Auro 3D, Dirac with 16 channels 192 Khz. So don't put it on Dirac and stick to your commitments!
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Post by thxultra on Jan 28, 2020 15:45:10 GMT -5
I'm going to offer you some off-the-cuff reality here.... The portion of the firmware code dedicated to processing the Dirac correction filters takes up a significant amount of memory and uses a significant amount of processing power...
Therefore, the sample rate at which it will be able to operate depends on how powerful the processor itself is, and on how the code is written.
The predictions we made early on were based largely on the information we received from Dirac - about the code we then expected to receive from them. Since then, a lot has changed, and the code we finally received from them was quite different than what was originally promised or expected. Because of this, some of our early expectations, based on information that is now outdated, may also have to be changed.
Early on, we had the choice of offering you the best information we had at the time, or of saying nothing, and hearing endless complaints that we don't share enough information with our customers. As usual, we chose to share what we knew at the time... and, as sometimes happens, previously unexpected changes may force us to revise those early expectations.
We will provide you with the final details as soon as we finalize the Dirac code and the interface that connects it to the RMC-1. (We are finally very close to this... so please bear with us just a little bit longer.)
I will again remind everyone that the purpose of Dirac is to make significant changes to your audio signal - all aimed toward improving the sound of your system. If you really want to listen to your original high-res audio sources, with the utmost accuracy, you will use Reference Stereo mode, and bypass Dirac along with all the other available types of processing.
And, if you do choose to run Dirac, because you expect it to deliver a significant improvement, then you should focus on the results, rather than on the details about how they are achieved. MiniDSP is able to run 24/96 so Dirac is able to do this. www.minidsp.com/dirac-seriesPlease explain why the Rmc-1 suddenly can't do this when you first expected it to be able to run 192 then 96 and now 48? On this topic is there a stereo mode that can be used with Subs enabled and no Dirac. From what I'm hearing this is going to be what I'm looking for at least for music playback...
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