mikes
Minor Hero
Posts: 38
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Post by mikes on May 15, 2019 9:29:09 GMT -5
I'm in the process of assembling a tube preamp (Tavish Design’s Vintage 6SL7 Phono Stage) so it will be a while before I can accurately answer the question
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,227
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Post by novisnick on May 15, 2019 9:31:44 GMT -5
I'm in the process of assembling a tube preamp (Tavish Design’s Vintage 6SL7 Phono Stage) so it will be a while before I can accurately answer the question Have fun! 👍🎶🎶🎶🎶
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,227
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Post by novisnick on May 15, 2019 9:42:00 GMT -5
Surely there is a degree of nostalgia and cool factor to tubes. My Schiit Valhalla’s are my favorite pieces of audio gear to look at. To me they look like I could have spent thousands of dollars on them and the tubes in a dim room with candles lit is very relaxing and brings a cool ambience. This isn’t lost on me. But I’m also 33 years young and so it’s a bit of vintage fun for me. Even if it’s not truly vintage. Kind of like the resurgence of vinyl. I just hooked up my new Rega Planar 1 and slapped some vinyl on. When I AB the vinyl to CD or tidal. I don’t hear too much of a difference in audio quality. But it sure is a lot cooler with the Vinyl spinning, and the whole motions you go through with it! For the little boost in audio quality vinyl is kind of a pain in the tushy. But it’s cool and fun. Bringing the whole thing together. Go to a nice steakhouse. Spend $70 on a prime steak. It can be delicious but if they slap it on a plate and have mashed potatoes hanging off of it it might not taste as good. It’s all about covering all of the senses for audio. My point is maybe tubes vs solid state has more to do with general ambience and your perception of pride in your system Step up a few dollars and you will hear a difference! You didn’t buy a prime steak, sorry! Its a good entry level TT but Prime its not. I’m happy that you’re spinning vinyl but there are a few levels of gear, just like any other piece of gear. Almost. 🤔 First time a friend of mine heard my RP 6 with an Exact II cartridge he was so blown away! Disbelief was his reaction, and he has a most discerning ear I promise! To answer your last sentence, no its not the ambiance or perception of pride, its the SQ and how the music moves you that can’t be replaced by any other playback method. P1 is an easy to use and easy to listen to TT! 👍🎶🎶 Enjoy the Music Brotha!
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Post by 405x5 on May 15, 2019 10:03:44 GMT -5
I checked the last one because it was as close to this as I could get. The fact that this one went missing had me think there was no point to the poll at all. "I was just thinking that the poll sort of left out the option I would have picked: ( ) "I've owned tube equipment in the past; but now I prefer solid state equipment."
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Post by bluemeanies on May 15, 2019 10:10:30 GMT -5
I hate tube amp sound, can’t tolerate it, have to leave the room, it just sounds fake to me. I have heard a few tube amps that are OK, but that’s because they don’t sound like a tube amp. Which kinda defeats the purpose. Cheers Gary Wow, really? I’m not 100% versed with tubes as I just took an entry level plunge into them. My experiences have been on incredibly high end systems I’ve demoed and have always been extremely impressed. But it’s never sounded different than “solid state vs tube” it’s always just sounded very very good. These high end systems usually being McIntosh and audio research. Maybe my ear isn’t that in tune. But I have heard some systems surely if you walked in blind you would not walk away from. Maybe I guess?
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Post by brutiarti on May 15, 2019 10:10:32 GMT -5
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Post by bluemeanies on May 15, 2019 10:19:00 GMT -5
I was just thinking that the poll sort of left out the option I would have picked: ( ) "I've owned tube equipment in the past; but now I prefer solid state equipment." I also didn't see: ( ) "I've never owned any tube audio equipment; and have no real interest in it." (Which has got to apply to many of our younger listeners.)
Although, to be fair, most of the people who would respond that way probably won't respond at all.
I hate tube amp sound, can’t tolerate it, have to leave the room, it just sounds fake to me. I have heard a few tube amps that are OK, but that’s because they don’t sound like a tube amp. Which kinda defeats the purpose. Cheers Gary The purpose of the poll was not to fine people who dislike the sound of tubes rather the time spent listening. The same poll could be relegated to people owning SS. It’s been obvious you are in the SS camp. Your questions that you feel were left out are not relevant to the poll.
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Post by brutiarti on May 15, 2019 10:29:38 GMT -5
I have a Leben CS-300X integrated tube amplifier
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Post by DavidR on May 15, 2019 10:55:38 GMT -5
Yup, it's ALL audiobill's fault.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,944
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Post by KeithL on May 15, 2019 11:24:26 GMT -5
My mistake... from the title it seemed that the idea was to find out "how people felt about tube equipment" or "people's experiences with tube equipment". (And, if that's the case, then you have to include both the positive and the negative... and people who now spend both more and less time listening to it.)
I was just thinking that the poll sort of left out the option I would have picked: ( ) "I've owned tube equipment in the past; but now I prefer solid state equipment." I also didn't see: ( ) "I've never owned any tube audio equipment; and have no real interest in it." (Which has got to apply to many of our younger listeners.)
Although, to be fair, most of the people who would respond that way probably won't respond at all.
The purpose of the poll was not to fine people who dislike the sound of tubes rather the time spent listening. The same poll could be relegated to people owning SS. It’s been obvious you are in the SS camp. Your questions that you feel were left out are not relevant to the poll.
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on May 15, 2019 11:53:51 GMT -5
There's also something else that's worth mentioning here....
The differences between tube and solid state gear, and how they sound, are very different depending on the type of audio component you're talking about.
For example.....
One major difference in the way tube and solid state power amps sound is due to damping factor. With certain extremely rare exceptions, all tube power amps have a very low damping factor (between 1 and 10), while all solid state amps have a very high damping factor (100+ and usually 500+). Likewise, with the exception of a few really unusual loudspeakers, damping factor has a major effect on both the amount of bass a speaker will produce, and how well controlled that bass sounds. (Damping factor may affect other drivers - but its biggest effect will be on the bass.)
This is one reason why they sound so very different with most speakers.
However, no such difference exists between tube preamps and solid state preamps, because they don't interact directly with speakers. (A "hybrid amplifier" is generally equivalent to a tube preamp connected to a solid state power amp.) This is why the differences in sound between them is so much more subtle - and may be entirely inaudible.
Incidentally, the concept of a "tube DAC" is really a myth. The actual parts of a DAC that perform the conversion between digital and analog are far too complex to be built out of tubes.
(You would need hundreds of tubes to build even a simple DAC - and a tube USB or S/PDIF input circuit would require a lot more.) Therefore, any device claiming to be a tube DAC is really a solid state DAC with some tube components or stages added to it. (There are one or two critical stages than can individually be accomplished by tubes, although not very efficiently, but it's more common to see a tube buffer stage appended to an ordinary DAC.)
Likewise, in a CD player, the data is read from the surface of the disc using a LASER (I've never seen a CD player that used a tube LASER - they all use solid state LASER diodes).
The servo mechanisms that control the head position and focus are also universally very complex - and solid state. And I wouldn't even want to think about how complex it would be to perform Reed-Solomon error correction using discrete tubes. So, at most, a "tube CD player" may incorporate a few tubes into its DAC section, or add a tube buffer stage to the analog audio output section, but is really mostly solid state. (Lampizator designed a tube digital buffer stage - as a sort of proof of concept - but even he admitted that it was a novelty rather than a useful choice.)
Incidentally, if you're a tube fan, to the point of enjoying "gratuitous tubes", then you REALLY need to check out this guy: www.lampizatorpoland.com/
Wow, really? I’m not 100% versed with tubes as I just took an entry level plunge into them. My experiences have been on incredibly high end systems I’ve demoed and have always been extremely impressed. But it’s never sounded different than “solid state vs tube” it’s always just sounded very very good. These high end systems usually being McIntosh and audio research. Maybe my ear isn’t that in tune. But I have heard some systems surely if you walked in blind you would not walk away from. Maybe I guess?
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Post by geeqner on May 15, 2019 13:06:16 GMT -5
There's also something else that's worth mentioning here....
The differences between tube and solid state gear, and how they sound, are very different depending on the type of audio component you're talking about.
For example.....
One major difference in the way tube and solid state power amps sound is due to damping factor. With certain extremely rare exceptions, all tube power amps have a very low damping factor (between 1 and 10), while all solid state amps have a very high damping factor (100+ and usually 500+). Likewise, with the exception of a few really unusual loudspeakers, damping factor has a major effect on both the amount of bass a speaker will produce, and how well controlled that bass sounds. (Damping factor may affect other drivers - but its biggest effect will be on the bass.)
This is one reason why they sound so very different with most speakers.
However, no such difference exists between tube preamps and solid state preamps, because they don't interact directly with speakers. (A "hybrid amplifier" is generally equivalent to a tube preamp connected to a solid state power amp.) This is why the differences in sound between them is so much more subtle - and may be entirely inaudible. .. Not entirely sure about what accounts for the differences in Damping Factor - but a semi-educated guess tells me that it COULD have to do with the PHYSICS of Power Amplifier Tubes and their associated Output Transformers: IIRC - Tubes internally provide a Variable Voltage ("shuffling Electrons" - mostly as Charges) within the tube The way that Internal Tube Elements "polarize" as the Input "Control Voltage" (signal) RISES may have different dynamics from the process by which they "De-Polarize" as the Input "Control Voltage" FALLS. (They may "ramp-UP" more quickly than their ability to "ramp-DOWN") There are probably residual charges that accumulate on the internal components of the tube(s) that take a finite time to decay. [In other words - run a Sine Wave into the Input and the output wave shape will probably be distorted a bit, and the rising and falling sides of the output waveform are likely to be a bit different.] Within Tube Power Amps - Transformers are used at the Output Stages: Their role is to turn the High Variable Voltage / (relatively) Low-Current Tube Output into lower proportional Voltage with more current, which is needed to drive low-impedance loads like speakers No matter how good the transformers are, because they are essentially "coils" they store energy internally in the form of a Magnetic Field and the way that they "Charge-Up" as Voltage Rises and "Discharge" as Voltage Falls will probably NOT be identical. Also, transformers are complex electronic animals due to at least two internal "conflicts": -Mutual Inductance (coupling between the Primary / Input winding and the Secondary / output winding) is usually better within a certain range of frequencies -Transformers are, at their core, at least TWO "coils", and coils are inherently low-pass filters (they tend to act more like a wire at low frequencies and like an open switch at higher frequencies) From what I have read about Tube Amps - one of the biggest factors separating the best ones from the "also-rans" is the quality and engineering spent on their TransformersWhen they are properly biased (used within a "Near-Linear" operating envelope), Solid-State devices like Power Transistors and MOSFETs are: more linear and "quicker" (they switch ON and OFF at rates that are usually significantly higher than any typical Audio signal) They can also operate at lower Voltages than the tubes and (usually) do not need to add the complexity of the Output Transformers. The tubes that are used for Pre-Amp stages are probably of a different type / construction and get-by without Output Transformers, because they are driving higher-impedance loads.
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on May 15, 2019 13:52:09 GMT -5
You've got it right - in general. However, if you're curious, I can fill in a few of the details.
The main difference is that a loudspeaker is an electro-mechanical load which actively generates back EMF when it operates (and is affected by how that back-EMF is handled).
The damping factor is simply the ratio of the source impedance to the load impedance (the source impedance is the output impedance of the amplifier). The output impedance of either a solid state power amp or a tube power amp would typically be between one and a few Ohms OPEN LOOP (with no feedback). However, when you apply negative feedback to reduce gain and distortion, the output impedance is lowered by the same ratio as the gain (more or less). So, because most solid state amplifiers have a significant amount of open loop gain, which is then reduced by significant NFB, they end up with a very low output impedance. In tube amps, the output transformer always has significant amounts of delay and phase shift associated with it... This prevents the designer from reducing THD, or lowering the output impedance, by applying a significant amount of negative feedback. (The more phase shift you have - the less NFB you can safely use before the whole thing becomes unstable and starts to oscillate.) The reason this is especially important with loudspeakers is because loudspeakers are active electromechanical devices. A typical speaker is simply an electric motor. When you apply a signal, current flows through the voice coil, and the resulting magnetic field pushes against the field from the fixed magnet, causing the cone to move. When you stop applying a signal, the cone wants to keep moving due to inertia, but now the voice coil, a coil moving in a fixed magnetic field, acts like a generator. If you actually disconnect the amplifier at this point you will get a voltage - which is referred to as "back EMF". And, just as with most generators, if you short circuit the output, the current flow that results acts as a brake, and attempts to stop it from moving.
The analysis looks quite different depending on what model you use... but the net result is the same... When the signal stops, the output of the amplifier attempts to "actively drive the output to 0v", and, in doing so, acts as a short circuit to the back EMF coming from the voice coil. So, when the signal stops, the cone wants to keep moving due to momentum, and the amplifier, by shorting the current that is generated, acts as a "magnetic brake" to stop it. (And, the lower the output impedance of the amplifier, the more effective a job it does as a brake.)
Old speakers, designed to work with tube amps, have lots of mechanical damping built in, and so don't rely on the amplifier for much of it. However, most modern speakers have heavy cones, and powerful motors, and rely on the amplifier to act as a brake to dissipate the energy from the momentum stored in the moving cone. And, if the amplifier cannot do a good job of "shorting the generator" due to a high output impedance, the speaker continues to wave back and forth until that energy dissipates elsewhere. If you compare both in terms of their waterfall plots... You'll see that the speaker attached to the amplifier with lots of damping stops making bass pretty quickly after the signal has stopped... But the one connected to the amplifier with very low damping continues to make output for a significant amount of time - until it dissipates that stored energy somewhere else.
This output tends to carry on after the signal has stopped - and is often concentrated at the resonant frequency of the driver and cabinet... Both of which make it sound "tubby", "slow", and "not very clean", or "softer" (although it may actually produce more bass).
A preamp is typically operating into a simple passive electrical load - which is largely resistive. Therefore, it doesn't have to dissipate back EMF by sinking current coming back from the load. There's also something else that's worth mentioning here.... The differences between tube and solid state gear, and how they sound, are very different depending on the type of audio component you're talking about.
For example..... One major difference in the way tube and solid state power amps sound is due to damping factor. With certain extremely rare exceptions, all tube power amps have a very low damping factor (between 1 and 10), while all solid state amps have a very high damping factor (100+ and usually 500+). Likewise, with the exception of a few really unusual loudspeakers, damping factor has a major effect on both the amount of bass a speaker will produce, and how well controlled that bass sounds. (Damping factor may affect other drivers - but its biggest effect will be on the bass.)
This is one reason why they sound so very different with most speakers. However, no such difference exists between tube preamps and solid state preamps, because they don't interact directly with speakers. (A "hybrid amplifier" is generally equivalent to a tube preamp connected to a solid state power amp.) This is why the differences in sound between them is so much more subtle - and may be entirely inaudible. ..
Not sure what would account for the differences in Damping Factor - but I believe that it COULD have to do with the PHYSICS of Power Amplifier Tubes and their associated Output Transformers: IIRC - Tubes internally provide a Variable Voltage ("shuffling Electrons" - mostly as Charges) within the tube The way that Internal Tube Elements "polarize" may have different dynamics from the process used to "De-Polarize" them (They may "ramp-UP" more quickly than their ability to "ramp-DOWN") Transformers are used at the Output Stages - to turn some of the High Variable Voltage into lower proportional Voltage with more current, which is needed to drive low-impedance loads like speakers No matter how good the transformers are, because they are essentially "coils" they store energy internally in the form of a Magnetic Field and the way that they "Charge-Up" as Voltage Rises and "Discharge" as Voltage Falls will probably NOT be identical. When they are properly biased, Solid-State devices like Power Transistors and MOSFETs are more linear and "quicker" (they switch ON and OFF at rates that are usually significantly higher than any typical Audio signal) They can also operate at lower Voltages than the tubes and (usually) do not need to add the complexity of the Output Transformers. The tubes that are used for Pre-Amp stages are probably of a different type / construction and get-by without Output Transformers, because they are driving higher-impedance loads.
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Post by pedrocols on May 15, 2019 14:07:26 GMT -5
What I like about it other than the price is the low gain of only 11db.
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Post by pop on May 15, 2019 14:32:05 GMT -5
Surely there is a degree of nostalgia and cool factor to tubes. My Schiit Valhalla’s are my favorite pieces of audio gear to look at. To me they look like I could have spent thousands of dollars on them and the tubes in a dim room with candles lit is very relaxing and brings a cool ambience. This isn’t lost on me. But I’m also 33 years young and so it’s a bit of vintage fun for me. Even if it’s not truly vintage. Kind of like the resurgence of vinyl. I just hooked up my new Rega Planar 1 and slapped some vinyl on. When I AB the vinyl to CD or tidal. I don’t hear too much of a difference in audio quality. But it sure is a lot cooler with the Vinyl spinning, and the whole motions you go through with it! For the little boost in audio quality vinyl is kind of a pain in the tushy. But it’s cool and fun. Bringing the whole thing together. Go to a nice steakhouse. Spend $70 on a prime steak. It can be delicious but if they slap it on a plate and have mashed potatoes hanging off of it it might not taste as good. It’s all about covering all of the senses for audio. My point is maybe tubes vs solid state has more to do with general ambience and your perception of pride in your system Step up a few dollars and you will hear a difference! You didn’t buy a prime steak, sorry! Its a good entry level TT but Prime its not. I’m happy that you’re spinning vinyl but there are a few levels of gear, just like any other piece of gear. Almost. 🤔 First time a friend of mine heard my RP 6 with an Exact II cartridge he was so blown away! Disbelief was his reaction, and he has a most discerning ear I promise! To answer your last sentence, no its not the ambiance or perception of pride, its the SQ and how the music moves you that can’t be replaced by any other playback method. P1 is an easy to use and easy to listen to TT! 👍🎶🎶 Enjoy the Music Brotha! I think you missed my point. I’m not comparing my P1 to a prime Steak. I’m stating that if you presented a prime steak sloppy like a cafeteria lady would on a lunch tray, will it taste as good if presented by a 5 star chef? Most likely not. Now, I’m not calling SS lunch lady fare. My conclusion is that all the senses matter when hearing music. Dim the lights, poor a beverage of choice, light a candle, and the music sounds better. Hence my analogy drawn to tubes. They add an ambience that is unbeatable by almost any solid state amp or preamp. I do believe that this ambience, if you think it’s cool, will persuade you rather the tube sound is better or not. Your senses are excited. Now on to your next point. I can hear a difference between my P1, cd, and streaming high res. What im stating is the differences are subtle. It’s not night and day. The logic of spending more money for another 10% or even 20% increase is lost on me. Been there, done that. However, is putting a record on your TT a lot cooler than hitting play on a CD player or opening up your streaming app? HELL YEAH! so yes, vinyl is a better lossless choice but the cool factor and dedication to playing something excites the rest of your senses and overall experience. I think if more people blind audition things they will find that their biased of gathered information is affecting their judgement more than the sounds being produced. I have been guilty of this many times. I prefer to listen blind when the opportunity grants itself. If I can’t, I dump my biased and simply listen. So SS or Tube? Does it sound awesome? Because That’s the point. If you walk into a room and see tubes, and you have decided that you don’t like them it’s not going to sound good to you. Period, end of story.
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Post by geeqner on May 15, 2019 14:53:11 GMT -5
OK - I see that I forgot about the whole "counter-EMF" thing...
So, when you analyze things "through an Engineering Point-of-View" - Two factors nearly always come to mind:
1. NOTHING is EVER as simple as it would first appear to be (We had a professor who spoke about analyzing the junction between the lead wires and the resistive material in "seemingly-innocent", simple, carbon resistors - that opened my eyes a bit...)
2. Heck, it's AMAZING that anything works at all....
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Post by Raven on May 15, 2019 14:55:10 GMT -5
Lots of interesting info, but to me most important question was missed.
Why are you listening music? For enjoyment, right?
Recently I've auditioned really good equipment like latest Accuphase pre+power amps, Bryston pre+power and McIntosh pre and mono blocs MC1.25KW. I guess dumping factor etc. isn't bad there.
But to my ears PrimaLuna sounds better, bigger and deeper sound-stage and over all MORE enjoyable. Also it happens to be a tube amp...
P.S. If SS amp sounds better to your ears by all means go for it. but you will never know what's better for you before you try a good tube. Also sound difference between auditioned SS amps very small. So, Emo amp could be a good alternative.
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Post by geeqner on May 15, 2019 15:04:35 GMT -5
Fully agree, Raven -
Local High-End dealer has a demo system that is ALL high-end Audio Research Tube Gear tied to Vendersteen speakers in a acoustically-optimized room THAT sucker will "blow yer' mind" (And it SHOULD - the retail value is about 2/3 of the purchase price of my house...) He usually plays a high-end Aurender Digital Source (Storage / DAC) through it
Had a friend back in college who had a full rack-mount set of SoundCraftsman SS gear driving a big set of 3-ways and MAN could that thing R-O-C-K-!
Either way - SS or Tube, if done RIGHT can be awfully darned good And there are probably some outstanding bargains in both categories if one is willing to take the time and "unearth" them
But in the end - it's about what YOU enjoy
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Post by highfihoney2 on May 15, 2019 15:21:32 GMT -5
Surely there is a degree of nostalgia and cool factor to tubes. My Schiit Valhalla’s are my favorite pieces of audio gear to look at. To me they look like I could have spent thousands of dollars on them and the tubes in a dim room with candles lit is very relaxing and brings a cool ambience. This isn’t lost on me. But I’m also 33 years young and so it’s a bit of vintage fun for me. Even if it’s not truly vintage. Kind of like the resurgence of vinyl. I just hooked up my new Rega Planar 1 and slapped some vinyl on. When I AB the vinyl to CD or tidal. I don’t hear too much of a difference in audio quality. But it sure is a lot cooler with the Vinyl spinning, and the whole motions you go through with it! For the little boost in audio quality vinyl is kind of a pain in the tushy. But it’s cool and fun. Bringing the whole thing together. Go to a nice steakhouse. Spend $70 on a prime steak. It can be delicious but if they slap it on a plate and have mashed potatoes hanging off of it it might not taste as good. It’s all about covering all of the senses for audio. My point is maybe tubes vs solid state has more to do with general ambience and your perception of pride in your system Perception & personal bias is an issue for sure but there's no denying tube amps & preamps do sound different than SS gear,better or worse is for the listener to decide but we can't just blow off tubes as perception & pride when measurable audible differences can be shown.
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Post by audiobill on May 15, 2019 15:31:09 GMT -5
And easy to repair a tube amp, not so much with some ic and smd laden “accurate” but nonrepairable ss amps I’ve seen.
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