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Post by jbrunwa on Sept 15, 2021 13:36:41 GMT -5
To be honest, the results individual folks achieve vary widely, and don't always match up with the theory... and you will see some apparent contradictions in the theory... but here's the theory...
1) There is no specific difference between "absolute timing" and "relative timing". Therefore, if you set the delay and timing correct individually on each speaker, then they will be correct relative to each other. So, in theory, if your math is 100% perfect, there is no reason, and no benefit, to "measuring them together". You don't need to measure the interactions because you can simply calculate them. (The reason you sometimes get better results if you measure things together is because both the accuracy of your measurements and your calculating abilities are limited.)
2) (this one cuts both ways)...
There is no such thing as perfect electronic room correction... you simply cannot correct every problem or overcome every limitation with EQ and phase correction.
ALL room correction involves compromises and limitations...
However, if you do it well, you can produce very good results at one or more specific locations, and reasonably good results overall...
Specifically, there is NO setting that will be correct for multiple subs at every listening position... that is simply impossible... it will ALWAYS be a compromise.
(So, adding an extra feature, or an extra capability, may or may not give you a better result.... depending on what the limitation was to begin with.)
3) An external device like a MiniDSP can do certain things that cannot be done in an AVR or pre/pro. For example, since an AVR or pre/pro does Dolby decoding, we are required to do bass management in certain ways, in order to comply with Dolby's licensing requirements. So, in order to comply with the Dolby licensing requirements, we cannot "just let Dirac do whatever it wants with the crossovers". But it does not apply to devices like the MiniDSP - since it doesn't do Dolby decoding and doesn't need license approval from Dolby.
The short answer to your question is that there is no short answer... In a perfect room, with perfect speakers, there would be no need to run room correction at all... and no improvement to be had if you did.
In real rooms, under real conditions, Dirac Live often produces a significant improvement. But the only way to determine where DLBC would be an improvement would be to find situations where the regular version did NOT do very well... Then try DLBC and see if it does a better job... (I would assume that this would be more likely to be the case with multiple subs, extremely dissimilar subs, and unusual rooms or speaker placements... but that is just an educated guess.)
For more information I would refer to various reviews of DLBC ... But do remember that, with this sort of thing, every situation is unique ... So the only way to know for sure whether it will help in your particular situation will be to try it ...
(At most you can collect statistical information on "how many people thought it helped, how many didn't think so, and how many thought it was worth the price".)
From what I understand Dirac Live adjusts each speaker for best individual performance. IMO that is not what we want for subwoofers. I got a non optimum correction from Dirac Live having two subwoofers connected to individual sub outs on my XMC-2. Some people have better results with a Y connector from center sub out to multiple subs, but that doesn’t in itself match timing. I ended up using the single sub out to a miniDSP 2x4HD and this gave a good result. I use the miniDSP to delay the faster sub so both are time aligned. After gain matching the subs by adjusting the volume on each subs amp, I used REW to EQ the combined frequency response of both subs. This gave a very good result. Then Dirac Live on top of that. I think that if DLBC were available, it would probably do the same thing with less effort. Also, I could argue that the XMC-2 costs less and is comparable to the HTP-1, but others may disagree. Thanks Keith! My hypothesis was to generate one BEQ for the combined subwoofer output, thinking that it would generate an overall room optimized response versus individually EQ'ing each subwoofer. It seemed to work in my room, but as you say, it may just my two subs are different, or that my skills limited the result. I do think that DLBC might do better, but I didn't want to wait. |
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Post by millst on Sept 15, 2021 13:55:46 GMT -5
Will you get great support from Emotiva when you have problems? Sure. Will your life be filled with less problems if you buy the HTP-1? Sure.
I've got an XMC-2 as it was hard to justify the extra expense of the HTP-1. At times, I've been ready to pay it anyway. I would miss the OSD and digital output.
Everything I've seen on the forums indicates that the bugs in the HTP-1 are less severe and fixed at a faster pace. Monoprice is also quicker to incorporate new features. I'd bet the sound quality difference between the two is close to inaudible.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Sept 15, 2021 15:46:40 GMT -5
Hey RMC owners! I’m ready to pull the trigger on a new pre-pro finally. I’ll be picking up a total of 2 new amps totaling 15 channels all powered by emotiva amps  However I’m stuck deciding between the HTP-1 and the RMC. Maybe someone can help me in my dilemma. What i like about the HTP-1 is it’s web interface for setup. Does the RMC have anything close to this? Could I setup the RMC via the iPhone app? 2nd is the HTP-1 also has the Dirac live for base management, I think at an additional cost. I haven’t been able to find any info on whether RMC has this feature right now. I was told I could only do my 2 sub setup with a y splitter to a single sub out under Dirac live. Really those two things are what’s holding me up. Hoping someone who actually owns a unit could provide some insight. Thanks in advanced, Spencer Adding to what others have said - read up on the latest for DL Bass MGMT. I don't know where it stands now, but Dirac made a lot of promises and there were a lot of teething issues (it didn't work as promised in some situations). Many were not happy. Last I saw, they "fixed" it but it didn't really sound like a fix. Caveat emptor. Read and learn. It may be fine now, but...worth checking. Also, building on what others have said - the Emotiva onscreen display is great and easy to use for setup. And, I've had my XMC-2 for about a year now, and I've rarely gone into the menu for setup. I did the major setup early on, and the only times I went into into it again were to tweak a setting or do a FW update (not often). I don't feel the need for a web-based interface - even though it might be nice. Running Dirac is the most complex part of it all, and even that's not hard. The Dirac software walks you through it easily. You just follow the steps. In my case, I have Dirac on a PC near my XMC-2 and can display the PC's screen on my main screen (86" TV) and control the PC with a wireless keyboard. I start up Dirac, wire up the required Emotiva EDNIB, and work through it. Total time to run it is typically <30 minutes even if taking my time. The other thing I will add is that the user community here + the Emotiva customer service team are great. I've never experienced anything like it with any other company. I have seen some of the issues others have mentioned about Monoprice's HTP-1 support around the web...again, caveat emptor. Mark |
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Post by JKCashin on Sept 15, 2021 17:55:01 GMT -5
Does the HTP-1 have reference stereo mode? I thought not... but not sure No it has a pair of unbalanced rca's with both adc and dac conversion ; no proper analogue passthrough like the g3;s Why is this never mentioned in such threads, sigh. This was a deal breaker for me when considering the HTP-1 as a recommendation to a friend (I already had the XMC-2 when the HTP-1 came around). Given the opportunity to do it all over, I would still go XMC-2 for a bunch of reasons..... despite the glitches, most are annoyances I can tolerate in exchange for the sound... much like owning an Italian supercar. |
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Post by JKCashin on Sept 15, 2021 17:57:26 GMT -5
From what I understand Dirac Live adjusts each speaker for best individual performance. IMO that is not what we want for subwoofers. I got a non optimum correction from Dirac Live having two subwoofers connected to individual sub outs on my XMC-2. Some people have better results with a Y connector from center sub out to multiple subs, but that doesn’t in itself match timing. I ended up using the single sub out to a miniDSP 2x4HD and this gave a good result. I use the miniDSP to delay the faster sub so both are time aligned. After gain matching the subs by adjusting the volume on each subs amp, I used REW to EQ the combined frequency response of both subs. This gave a very good result. Then Dirac Live on top of that. I think that if DLBC were available, it would probably do the same thing with less effort. Also, I could argue that the XMC-2 costs less and is comparable to the HTP-1, but others may disagree. The XMC2 is not recommended by ASR so I’m not sure that it’s competitive with the HTP1. That horse left some time ago. A recommendation by ASR is not the only criteria by which one might make a buying decision. |
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Post by autocrat on Sept 15, 2021 18:31:38 GMT -5
The XMC2 is not recommended by ASR so I’m not sure that it’s competitive with the HTP1. That horse left some time ago. A recommendation by ASR is not the only criteria by which one might make a buying decision. For the overwhelming majority of potential buyers it isn't even criteria. |
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Post by Lsc on Sept 15, 2021 18:49:49 GMT -5
The XMC2 is not recommended by ASR so I’m not sure that it’s competitive with the HTP1. That horse left some time ago. A recommendation by ASR is not the only criteria by which one might make a buying decision. The XMC2 is in the do not recommend category by ASR and Amir actually stopped testing the unit after several bad results. Whether that’s representative or not, it was an XMC2 out in the field. There is more to it than ASR but it has been a history riddled with slow firmware releases and lots of bugs. Also, I am still waiting for DLBC. My unit is over 2 years old now. Do I want to speak poorly about my XMC2? Not really as my unit has worked great but I find myself not comfortable recommending the XMC2. |
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Post by pzzr on Sept 16, 2021 1:19:13 GMT -5
That horse left some time ago. A recommendation by ASR is not the only criteria by which one might make a buying decision. The XMC2 is in the do not recommend category by ASR and Amir actually stopped testing the unit after several bad results. Whether that’s representative or not, it was an XMC2 out in the field. There is more to it than ASR but it has been a history riddled with slow firmware releases and lots of bugs. Also, I am still waiting for DLBC. My unit is over 2 years old now. Do I want to speak poorly about my XMC2? Not really as my unit has worked great but I find myself not comfortable recommending the XMC2. I’m researching an upgrade now, and finding myself disappointed in the reports from owners of all brands in the sub $5K, and even over that price point. ASR has little good to say about any of them, ranking the Denon AVR above them all. Yes, that’s one site, but combined with research across most of the forums, the upgraded SQ is going to come at the cost of reliability. It’s disheartening, quite honestly. I don’t mind doing the work to get it set up properly, from that point, I want to be know it’ll work when I hit the ‘On’ button, and that seems to be a Holy Grail of sorts |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2021 6:46:36 GMT -5
The XMC2 is in the do not recommend category by ASR and Amir actually stopped testing the unit after several bad results. Whether that’s representative or not, it was an XMC2 out in the field. There is more to it than ASR but it has been a history riddled with slow firmware releases and lots of bugs. Also, I am still waiting for DLBC. My unit is over 2 years old now. Do I want to speak poorly about my XMC2? Not really as my unit has worked great but I find myself not comfortable recommending the XMC2. I’m researching an upgrade now, and finding myself disappointed in the reports from owners of all brands in the sub $5K, and even over that price point. ASR has little good to say about any of them, ranking the Denon AVR above them all. Yes, that’s one site, but combined with research across most of the forums, the upgraded SQ is going to come at the cost of reliability. It’s disheartening, quite honestly. I don’t mind doing the work to get it set up properly, from that point, I want to be know it’ll work when I hit the ‘On’ button, and that seems to be a Holy Grail of sorts Be nice if things worked simply by pushing an on button. I can't imagine the embarrassment such gear causes owners when about to demo the system and they need power on/off/on unplug plug in walk around the equipment shaking a chicken bone while doing the wild thang dance  |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Sept 16, 2021 7:32:39 GMT -5
The XMC2 is in the do not recommend category by ASR and Amir actually stopped testing the unit after several bad results. Whether that’s representative or not, it was an XMC2 out in the field. There is more to it than ASR but it has been a history riddled with slow firmware releases and lots of bugs. Also, I am still waiting for DLBC. My unit is over 2 years old now. Do I want to speak poorly about my XMC2? Not really as my unit has worked great but I find myself not comfortable recommending the XMC2. I’m researching an upgrade now, and finding myself disappointed in the reports from owners of all brands in the sub $5K, and even over that price point. ASR has little good to say about any of them, ranking the Denon AVR above them all. Yes, that’s one site, but combined with research across most of the forums, the upgraded SQ is going to come at the cost of reliability. It’s disheartening, quite honestly. I don’t mind doing the work to get it set up properly, from that point, I want to be know it’ll work when I hit the ‘On’ button, and that seems to be a Holy Grail of sorts I've never owned an AVR or Prepro that hasn't worked when I hit the On button. Currently my XMC-2 is working very well on the latest firmware. None of hem are perfect, but I haven't owned one that I wanted to trash yet. |
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Post by goodfellas27 on Sept 16, 2021 8:15:18 GMT -5
Due to Atmos, I was looking at the HTP-1 before the XMC-1 to XMC-2 program kicked it. Big Dan and team helped me decided with that great deal. I would go with HTP-1 if I had to pay full price. The XMC-2 bugs, pops issues, and poor Dirac Implementation are not worth the headaches. As you mentioned, how the hack the "On" button doesn't work half of the time? I have to power cycle the unit to get a few hours of stable listening. After the ASR issues, I wouldn't recommend it. I’m researching an upgrade now, and finding myself disappointed in the reports from owners of all brands in the sub $5K, and even over that price point. ASR has little good to say about any of them, ranking the Denon AVR above them all. Yes, that’s one site, but combined with research across most of the forums, the upgraded SQ is going to come at the cost of reliability. It’s disheartening, quite honestly. I don’t mind doing the work to get it set up properly, from that point, I want to be know it’ll work when I hit the ‘On’ button, and that seems to be a Holy Grail of sorts |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Sept 16, 2021 8:45:49 GMT -5
Due to Atmos, I was looking at the HTP-1 before the XMC-1 to XMC-2 program kicked it. Big Dan and team helped me decided with that great deal. I would go with HTP-1 if I had to pay full price. The XMC-2 bugs, pops issues, and poor Dirac Implementation are not worth the headaches. As you mentioned, how the hack the "On" button doesn't work half of the time? I have to power cycle the unit to get a few hours of stable listening. After the ASR issues, I wouldn't recommend it. I’m researching an upgrade now, and finding myself disappointed in the reports from owners of all brands in the sub $5K, and even over that price point. ASR has little good to say about any of them, ranking the Denon AVR above them all. Yes, that’s one site, but combined with research across most of the forums, the upgraded SQ is going to come at the cost of reliability. It’s disheartening, quite honestly. I don’t mind doing the work to get it set up properly, from that point, I want to be know it’ll work when I hit the ‘On’ button, and that seems to be a Holy Grail of sorts It's amazing to me that we have different user experiences. I just don't understand why some units work fine...no need to power cycle every few hours....turn it on and it just "works"....no pops with latest firmware....Dirac works fine once you know how to run it....yes it's more complicated than the mainstream units, but it's also more powerful. I'm sorry for your issues, but I just wanted possible new owners to realize that not all of us have all these mentioned problems. As to ASR...I've tried to listen carefully for sound issues and can't hear any. It's either inaudible or my hearing is not that good. I've put that review on the backburner. |
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Post by Hair Nick on Sept 16, 2021 8:57:04 GMT -5
Our RMC-1 is configured via a menu system - which is displayed on both the front panel displays and on-screen display. You can do this using the remote control itself... (You can even do it using the front panel controls.) The Remote Control apps essentially make your phone into a replica of the remote control itself... So you can do anything using it that you can do with the unit's remote control. However, at least for now, it doesn't have any "wizards" or "fancy walk-you-through-the-setup" interface.
Hey KeithL, Wow really appreciate the help, not to mention all the other responses - super helpful community. I have one follow up question if you don't mind. My AV rack is located in a separate room, so I use a harmony remote to control most of it, but I also use my iphone for some apps like for the Denon X4500H AV I currently have. Using the iphone App, am I missing out on a wizard walkthrough of some kind or do I just follow a a step by step manual process to set each setting up? Seems like the only wizard interface setup is done through Dirac Live which is on the computer. Thanks again for the help! We made a video to help with the initial setup of the unit. |
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Post by goodfellas27 on Sept 16, 2021 10:11:42 GMT -5
I am glad you have a "gold unit" from the XMC-2 quality lottery; however, that's not the case with many here including my friend's unit. It could point to a Emotiva quality control issues. As for Dirac, I had the pro version for years, including the XMC-1. Once you load all three slots in the XMC-2, it becomes unstable and slow. You'll need to power cycle the unit. Leaving the "video on" power settings will cause more issues. I leave the power settings to completely off to avoid this. Don't get me started with the HDMI syncs issues. As for hearing the issues, I suggest an A/B test with different processor to catch it. It's amazing to me that we have different user experiences. I just don't understand why some units work fine...no need to power cycle every few hours....turn it on and it just "works"....no pops with latest firmware....Dirac works fine once you know how to run it....yes it's more complicated than the mainstream units, but it's also more powerful. I'm sorry for your issues, but I just wanted possible new owners to realize that not all of us have all these mentioned problems. As to ASR...I've tried to listen carefully for sound issues and can't hear any. It's either inaudible or my hearing is not that good. I've put that review on the backburner. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Sept 16, 2021 11:12:28 GMT -5
I am grad you have a "gold unit" from the XMC-2 quality lottery; however, that's not the case with many here including my friend's unit. It could point to a Emotiva quality control issues. As for Dirac, I had the pro version for years, including the XMC-1. Once you load all three slots in the XMC-2, it becomes unstable and slow. You'll need to power cycle the unit. Leaving the "video on" power settings will cause more issues. I leave the power settings to completely off to avoid this. Don't get me started with the HDMI syncs issues. As for hearing the issues, I suggest an A/B test with different processor to catch it. It's amazing to me that we have different user experiences. I just don't understand why some units work fine...no need to power cycle every few hours....turn it on and it just "works"....no pops with latest firmware....Dirac works fine once you know how to run it....yes it's more complicated than the mainstream units, but it's also more powerful. I'm sorry for your issues, but I just wanted possible new owners to realize that not all of us have all these mentioned problems. As to ASR...I've tried to listen carefully for sound issues and can't hear any. It's either inaudible or my hearing is not that good. I've put that review on the backburner. I only load two slots. If it's slow for three, that should be fixed. Not sure about quality control issues at the company, I've purchased a number of products and the quality seems good to me. Maybe someone else can chime in on how they do quality control. I always use Video Remains On (VRO). I had Dirac on the XMC-1 also and it worked great. I have no issues with HDMI sync. HDMI sync timing has improved with firmware updates, but I have never had it not sync. Let us know the results of an A/B test if you conduct one. I don't feel the need to buy another processor to compare. None of this is to demean you or others on problems you may have. This has just been my experience. If I had your issues and Emotiva could not make good, I would certainly move on to something else. Life is too short. |
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pzzr
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Post by pzzr on Sept 16, 2021 17:15:39 GMT -5
I am glad you have a "gold unit" from the XMC-2 quality lottery; however, that's not the case with many here including my friend's unit. It could point to a Emotiva quality control issues. As for Dirac, I had the pro version for years, including the XMC-1. Once you load all three slots in the XMC-2, it becomes unstable and slow. You'll need to power cycle the unit. Leaving the "video on" power settings will cause more issues. I leave the power settings to completely off to avoid this. Don't get me started with the HDMI syncs issues. As for hearing the issues, I suggest an A/B test with different processor to catch it. It's amazing to me that we have different user experiences. I just don't understand why some units work fine...no need to power cycle every few hours....turn it on and it just "works"....no pops with latest firmware....Dirac works fine once you know how to run it....yes it's more complicated than the mainstream units, but it's also more powerful. I'm sorry for your issues, but I just wanted possible new owners to realize that not all of us have all these mentioned problems. As to ASR...I've tried to listen carefully for sound issues and can't hear any. It's either inaudible or my hearing is not that good. I've put that review on the backburner. VRO isn’t a factor in my system. I would only anticipate one Dirac slot at first, maybe a second down the road. When I’m listening to 2-channel, my main reason for looking at this unit is the Reference mode where the Oppo 205 DAC will be sending analog only through balanced connectors in Reference Stereo mode- the XMC 2 is one of few units to offer that. Is it known that ‘loading up’ the processor with multiple Dirac files (if that’s the right term), and complicated setups is a cause for reliability issues? If so, I may be okay given mine will be a simple setup. |
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Post by routlaw on Sept 16, 2021 19:29:33 GMT -5
@ pzzr While I'm still in the early setup and dialing in stage with my RMC-1L likewise my setup is rather simple in that I use only a projector so the need for VRO, CEC and other items just are not necessary. It is worth mentioning though the onboard DAC's in the RMC/XMC-2 are really really good. Thus far they sound or perform differently than my Holo Spring DAC which is R2R ladder but much to my surprise I'm very impressed so far. The point being you might find yourself not using your Oppo 205 for an outboard DAC. I've pretty much decided to sell my XSP-1 Gen 2 pre-amp given the quality of the RMC-1 and may end up eliminating the the Holo Spring. Only time will tell. It will be awhile before fooling around with Dirac as I want to get all the basics dialed in first. Never even used it with my XMC-1, go figure. |
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Post by everytuesday on Sept 16, 2021 19:42:49 GMT -5
To be honest, the results individual folks achieve vary widely, and don't always match up with the theory... and you will see some apparent contradictions in the theory... but here's the theory...
Thank you so much for the thoughtful response. It really has helped me figure out if I did go with an RMC, how I would set it up. I have more questions specific to an amp setup, but I'll ask it in a separate post. |
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pzzr
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Post by pzzr on Sept 16, 2021 19:44:18 GMT -5
@ pzzr While I'm still in the early setup and dialing in stage with my RMC-1L likewise my setup is rather simple in that I use only a projector so the need for VRO, CEC and other items just are not necessary. It is worth mentioning though the onboard DAC's in the RMC/XMC-2 are really really good. Thus far they sound or perform differently than my Holo Spring DAC which is R2R ladder but much to my surprise I'm very impressed so far. The point being you might find yourself not using your Oppo 205 for an outboard DAC. I've pretty much decided to sell my XSP-1 Gen 2 pre-amp given the quality of the RMC-1 and may end up eliminating the the Holo Spring. Only time will tell. It will be awhile before fooling around with Dirac as I want to get all the basics dialed in first. Never even used it with my XMC-1, go figure. My Oppo is my Roon device, does the XMC-2 do that? I’ll go look…. |
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Post by everytuesday on Sept 16, 2021 19:44:46 GMT -5
Hey KeithL, Wow really appreciate the help, not to mention all the other responses - super helpful community. I have one follow up question if you don't mind. My AV rack is located in a separate room, so I use a harmony remote to control most of it, but I also use my iphone for some apps like for the Denon X4500H AV I currently have. Using the iphone App, am I missing out on a wizard walkthrough of some kind or do I just follow a a step by step manual process to set each setting up? Seems like the only wizard interface setup is done through Dirac Live which is on the computer. Thanks again for the help! We made a video to help with the initial setup of the unit. Perfect - exactly what I was looking for! Thanks! |
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