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Post by moonglow on Nov 22, 2021 15:16:15 GMT -5
I am new to Emotiva--didn't even know they offered a cd player until I saw it by accident in a search. Since I found the erc4 and it seemed like a substantial player for the price. I have a number of questions that concern me though
1. Lack of gapless playback--how annoying is it? Sounds like it could be very annoying
2. Noise--a number of reviews mentioned problems associated with erc-3 persist in erc-4
3. Power supply--does switch in power supply type make any difference positive or negative?
4. Description makes note of the fact that the erc-4 plays non-sacd layer of hybrid discs--but don't all cd players do that? No other manufacturer mentions it. I guess I want to know what's the point.
5. Interestingly the AD 1955 dac is described on its data sheet as being sacd capable for what it is worth
6. One final question --I found it strange that the Emotiva receives so little attention for its cd players (one you tube review for the 4--and hardly a review) while the amps and speakers are all over the web and youtube.
Just so you have a frame of reference I am considering Marantz 6007, Rotel CD-11 Tribute and Cambridge AXC35. Currently using an aging Oppo 980H with a sticking drawer.
I would appreciate any help on my concerns that would aide me in making a decision.
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Post by gsand on Nov 22, 2021 15:55:08 GMT -5
The ERC-4 does not have a 12v trigger like the ERC-3 did nor will it decode HDCD like the ERC-3
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Post by routlaw on Nov 22, 2021 15:56:03 GMT -5
I am new to Emotiva--didn't even know they offered a cd player until I saw it by accident in a search. Since I found the erc4 and it seemed like a substantial player for the price. I have a number of questions that concern me though 1. Lack of gapless playback--how annoying is it? Sounds like it could be very annoying 2. Noise--a number of reviews mentioned problems associated with erc-3 persist in erc-4 3. Power supply--does switch in power supply type make any difference positive or negative? 4. Description makes note of the fact that the erc-4 plays non-sacd layer of hybrid discs--but don't all cd players do that? No other manufacturer mentions it. I guess I want to know what's the point. 5. Interestingly the AD 1955 dac is described on its data sheet as being sacd capable for what it is worth 6. One final question --I found it strange that the Emotiva receives so little attention for its cd players (one you tube review for the 4--and hardly a review) while the amps and speakers are all over the web and youtube. Just so you have a frame of reference I am considering Marantz 6007, Rotel CD-11 Tribute and Cambridge AXC35. Currently using an aging Oppo 980H with a sticking drawer. I would appreciate any help on my concerns that would aide me in making a decision. Welcome moonglow, I'll throw my two cents worth into the hat on this one. I own the ERC-4 and had the ERC-3 before that so I have some experience on this. 1. Gapless playback, never understood peoples obsession with this. If you disc is written with a short pause between tracks, yes you might hear silence for a second, maybe two. Are people really that impatient? 2. Noise: Neither of these players have dead quiet transports but the ERC-4 is quieter than the 3 model. Some of this might have to do with out of balance CD's and yes they can be out of balance thus a small amount of wobble and thus a small amount of tracking noise but nothing that is obtrusive while listening to music. 3. Power Supply: There are people who religiously believe in linear power supplies, but in my estimation and experience it shouldn't matter so long as they are done correctly. 4. True, they all do or should play the non SACD layer of an SACD assuming it is not an SACD disc only. Many of Sony's are or were SACD only. 5. Its my understanding a completely different type of drive/transport would be needed to read the SACD layer of a disc, so its just not up to the DAC chip itself. 6. I suspect in this day and age very few CD Players receive reviews. We live in a streaming and computer based audio world which isn't likely to change anytime soon. Still there are times I just don't want to fool with computers for music, slipping a disc in a drawer is quite simple by comparison. I have no experience with the other 3 players you are considering, but FWIW I much prefer using AES/EBU if using a CDP as a transport feeding another DAC. Not sure these others have that capability. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Nov 22, 2021 16:18:39 GMT -5
... 1. Lack of gapless playback--how annoying is it? Sounds like it could be very annoying ... ... 1. Gapless playback, never understood peoples obsession with this. If you disc is written with a short pause between tracks, yes you might hear silence for a second, maybe two. Are people really that impatient? ... I'll only comment on this one 'feature' as I am sensitive to it. I've actually never heard of a CD player that wouldn't play a CD as it was designed to be played, though I've hardly used that many. There are plenty of Digital Players and DACs that have this problem. Here's how I would describe it, and how if it doesn't do this properly drives me nuts: "Concept Albums" often have no space between songs -- the classic example is "Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band", other examples in my library are "Dark Side of the Moon", "A Wizard, A True Star" (and MANY more). These albums were originally produced to be played back on vinyl LPs and possibly tape, neither format has any difficulty with songs being 'butted up' together. If you grew up listening to a particular album on one of these formats, then you have imprinted in your brain the proper way these albums should be played back, and the timing between songs. If a DAC gets 'confused' by the space (or lack there of) between songs and inserts a pause, or worse yet misses the beginning of the next song, or makes a pop, it (to me) ruins the experience. This is what I define as 'gapless playback' and if a CD player, digital player or DAC can't do it, I will try to find one that can. I do not know if the ERC-4 suffers from this problem, and only comment because you mention it. |
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Post by teaman on Nov 22, 2021 16:23:21 GMT -5
The Emotiva ERC-2 and 3 are easily the best CD players I have owned. Music reproduction is very dynamic, and they offer a multitude of ways to hook one up. I personally run XLR out to my preamp and I find this to be the best sounding option, although I have tried both optical and AES/EBU. I have one ERC-3 with a bit of noise when playing but I never listen at low enough levels to care. I think the mid mounted ERC-4 is even better as far as design than any of the previous. I don't think you will have any regrets.
Tim
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Post by brutiarti on Nov 22, 2021 16:39:58 GMT -5
I had to sell my ERC-4 because of the lack of gapless playback. My favorite albums are “concept” albums so they get ruined by the lack of GP. Also live music recorded in that format also gets interrupted.
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Post by routlaw on Nov 22, 2021 16:43:20 GMT -5
Audio HTIT makes a good point, one I had not thought about but then I haven't listened to those two albums he mentions in years other than on vinyl. But I'll bet dollars to donuts the ERC-4 has by far the best remote control of all of them. None of that cheap plastic crap on the Emtova remotes, but you do give up back lit display buttons if this is important.
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Nov 22, 2021 17:44:56 GMT -5
Just to be fair and complete here....
The original CD standard expected a default 2 second gap between tracks during playback. A lot of classical music is intended to be played without any breaks... And the simplest way to ensure this is to record it as a single track... In the old days there was an option to include "sub-indices"... which enabled you to skip to indexed points inside the track. However I haven't seen a player that supports this option in years...
Of course, as always, if the artist really wants something to play without pauses, then the obvious answer is to simply record it as a single track. Otherwise the player is NOT "getting confused"... it is simply playing separate tracks as... separate tracks.
But, since you asked, the ERC-4 does not "do gapless playback"...
... 1. Lack of gapless playback--how annoying is it? Sounds like it could be very annoying ... ... 1. Gapless playback, never understood peoples obsession with this. If you disc is written with a short pause between tracks, yes you might hear silence for a second, maybe two. Are people really that impatient? ... I'll only comment on this one 'feature' as I am sensitive to it. I've actually never heard of a CD player that wouldn't play a CD as it was designed to be played, though I've hardly used that many. There are plenty of Digital Players and DACs that have this problem. Here's how I would describe it, and how if it doesn't do this properly drives me nuts: "Concept Albums" often have no space between songs -- the classic example is "Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band", other examples in my library "Dark Side of the Moon", "A Wizard, A True Star" (and MANY more). These albums were originally produced to be played back on vinyl LPs and possibly tape, neither format has any difficulty with songs being 'butted up' together. If you grew up listening to a particular album on one of these formats, then you have imprinted in your brain the proper way these albums should be played back, and the timing between songs. If a DAC gets 'confused' by the space (or lack there of) between songs and inserts a pause, or worse yet misses the beginning of the next song, or makes a pop, it (to me) ruins the experience. This is what I define as 'gapless playback' and if a CD player, digital player or DAC can't do it, I will try to find one that can. I do not know if the ERC-4 suffers from this problem, and only comment because you mention it. |
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Post by creimes on Nov 22, 2021 18:32:01 GMT -5
I recently picked up a 10 month old ERC-4, I mainly have been using Tidal streaming on my Mac Mini through Audirvana and while I find the SQ good enough I am noticing playing CD's through the ERC-4 XLR out to my XMC-1 I do notice an improvement using the ERC-4, I do the same as what Teaman mentioned above, I use the internal DAC of the ERC by using two balanced XLR cables to the XLR input of my XMC-1 and to my ears it sounds really good, I have also owned both the ERC-1 and ERC-3 in the past but it's been a while so I cannot directly compare to them but the performance/price ratio of the ERC-4 is outstanding IMO As far as gapless playback do any of the newer CD players offer this ?? I do notice it on my ERC-4 but like mentioned only certain albums have it and it really isn't that bad, it packs a lot of great features for the price. I don't find mine noisy at all, what equipment will you be using it with, using the DAC in the ERC-4 is IMO the way to go unless you have a really really good DAC, I haven't compared it to the DAC of my XMC-1 but I know the ERC-4 is already really great and it's nice having the XLR outs. A couple of photos...   |
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Post by housetech on Nov 22, 2021 18:32:02 GMT -5
I've owned a few CD players and now use Sony UBP-X800 and haven't looked back. I still use a 1999 Sony DVD player for CD because the transport is quality.
I agree with AudioHTIT, many albums were recorded for LP playback and CD/DVD ruins that.
I just bought the Cambridge CXA81 amp and the DAC is very good, ESS Sabre ES9016K2M
The matching CXC35 CD player has a Wolfson Microelectronics WM8524 DAC, I didn't listen to it but the salesman said he liked it.
I've read positive comments about the Rotel CD-11 Tribute
Good luck deciding.
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Sayer
Sensei
Chasing better sound.
Posts: 139
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Post by Sayer on Nov 22, 2021 19:30:00 GMT -5
This thread is confusing to me. I produce music and still do small CD runs for a group of dedicated fans. When I order the CDs I have to indicate whether I want to insert a 2 second gap between tracks, it is part of the order process. I always do, but on one of my CDs the CD manufacturer forgot to insert the gaps. I do fade outs on all tracks, fade ins on some. There is no gap between tracks on that CD, it fades out and jumps right into the next track on the players I have used. Why would CD manufacturers ask if you want the 2 second gap if it didn't matter?
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Post by moonglow on Nov 22, 2021 20:22:59 GMT -5
As my first experience, this was very useful and I thank you all. I really appreciate the time and thought you put in your response. I do not plan to run a separate DAC so that answers that. One of the main reasons I have for considering the ERC4 is its dac. I am less concerned about noise and the power supply. Although I am getting lazier about cds, I am doing more streaming than poking through about 1500 hundred cds. The gapless issue has me divided just as all of you seem to be divided. The Cambridge player interests me because it would go in a secondary system with a axa100 receiver, which I like very much. I thought I might move up a class and the the Emotiva seemed like that step up. Maybe I will take advantage of the 30 day trial and see if the lack of gapless play bothers me or if ther is too much noise. Besides Sgt Pepper and Dark Side of the Moon, can anybody recommend a gapless recording that I might use to demo. Thanks everybody.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Nov 22, 2021 23:22:31 GMT -5
.. Besides Sgt Pepper and Dark Side of the Moon, can anybody recommend a gapless recording that I might use to demo. Thanks everybody. There are probably hundreds, maybe thousands, Genesis “Selling England By The Pound’ and “The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway”, Supertramp “Crime of the Century”, Ambrosia “Somewhere I’ve Never Traveled”, Beck “Morning Phase”, The Who “Sell Out” and “Quadrophenia”, Pink Floyd “Wish You Were Here” and “The Wall” (just off the top of my head), as mentioned, many live albums too (and others here probably know many more). The problem with making one long track is the inability to play a single song. But really, what’s important is what you remember. Some albums when remastered for CD had fade-outs added, so if you listened to those first then you’re not expecting anything different and it sounds fine to you. Listening to someone else’s memory doesn’t really matter, and as you’ve noticed, this bothers some more than others, so you’ll probably have to answer this issue for yourself. Edit: This may also depend on whether you’re a ‘song’ guy, or an ‘album’ guy. |
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Post by creimes on Nov 23, 2021 2:29:32 GMT -5
I sat down and chilled out with Metric - Grow Up and Blow Away tonight on the ERC-4 and one thing that came to me is how natural and smooth the sound was, it was hands down the most analog I have ever heard digital media(if that makes sense), rich, detailed and distinct. I do love vinyl but I hate cleaning and worrying about popping and bad pressings and such, I still have vinyl but no turn table. In the end our system is playing an analog signal and the ERC-4 sounds quite frankly very fantastic doing so. :format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1121545-1193741087.jpeg.jpg) |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,952
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Post by KeithL on Nov 23, 2021 9:48:25 GMT -5
There's something that I need to interject here... which is that this is all due in large part to the way the CDs themselves are mastered. Obviously, if the artist wanted to make sure that their album would be played without interruptions, they could have simply provided it as a single track. (It is sort of odd that some of these albums haven't been reissued as "continuous single track masters"... since then they would also play without gaps on streaming services.) (If I were an artist who had produced an album that I wanted to be sure could be played that way I would provide two discs with slightly different versions - one with separate tracks and one with a single track.)
I personally listen to most of my music from a server these days... although I do keep the CD media for all of the albums I own. I also do prefer to listen to a certain few albums all at once - with no breaks (really mostly just Dark Side of the Moon). Therefore, for those albums, I have made duplicate copies on my server where all the tracks are merged into one. I can now choose whether I prefer to listen to individual songs - or the entire album.
It's relatively simple to combine lossless tracks in any decent audio editor on a computer these days (with no loss whatsoever in quality). (I prefer Adobe Audition... but Audacity should do the job just fine... and it's free.) (And, if I wanted to play the result on a separate CD player, it would be relatively trivial to write that file back to CD-R media.)
.. Besides Sgt Pepper and Dark Side of the Moon, can anybody recommend a gapless recording that I might use to demo. Thanks everybody. There are probably hundreds, maybe thousands, Genesis “Selling England By The Pound’ and “The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway”, Supertramp “Crime of the Century”, Ambrosia “Somewhere I’ve Never Traveled”, Beck “Morning Phase”, The Who “Sell Out” and “Quadrophenia”, Pink Floyd “Wish You Were Here” and “The Wall” (just off the top of my head), as mentioned, many live albums too (and others here probably know many more). The problem with making one long track is the inability to play a single song. But really, what’s important is what you remember. Some albums when remastered for CD had fade-outs added, so if you listened to those first then you’re not expecting anything different and it sounds fine to you. Listening to someone else’s memory doesn’t really matter, and as you’ve noticed, this bothers some more than others, so you’ll probably have to answer this issue for yourself. Edit: This may also depend on whether you’re a ‘song’ guy, or an ‘album’ guy. |
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Post by moonglow on Nov 23, 2021 12:43:07 GMT -5
I am an album guy. As a number of you have pointed out--when it comes down to whether or not it really matters if there is a gap or not and I can determine that only by listening myself. I have to admit I really want to see what difference the ERC4 makes. Thanks for the album list. Because it was never an issue for me I have no memory of what's on a cd when it comes to gaps.
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Post by routlaw on Nov 23, 2021 17:04:54 GMT -5
To the OP, knowing you were frustrated with the lack of reviews for this player thought it might be helpful to check out what other owners think. The link is below if you haven't read through them yet. 37 reviews, with the vast majority @ 5 Stars, with the only complaints being about the gapless playback or lack there of. Otherwise all 37 seem to be mightly impressed by this disc player. emotiva.com/products/erc-4 |
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Post by moonglow on Nov 23, 2021 17:25:56 GMT -5
As I said I think it is worth an audition--the reviews were what I looked at at the very beginning.
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Post by housetech on Nov 24, 2021 13:41:25 GMT -5
Looking forward to your thoughts of the ERC-4.
Emotiva build quality, components used is very good and most listers find their products worth the money spent.
Oppo was the popular choice for a few years, (I never jumped on the bandwagon- good or bad) but did read someone saying they preferred ERC-? for CDs.
This purchase may be the last CD player you'll make, so get the best match for your system- hard to beat ERC input/ output options and the DAC is quality.
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Post by DavidR on Nov 24, 2021 15:48:12 GMT -5
Just to be fair and complete here....
The original CD standard expected a default 2 second gap between tracks during playback. ....................
.................................................................................................................................................... Otherwise the player is NOT "getting confused"... it is simply playing separate tracks as... separate tracks.
But, since you asked, the ERC-4 does not "do gapless playback"...
OK, feeling a bit stupid here. I've never encountered an issue with a CD player not playing a CD (other than it's not able to play some formats - rare).
So if you have a CD like DSOM and Yes Songs then the ERC-4 won't play it? or it will play it but put a pause between tracks that really should not be there?
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