gabe
Minor Hero
Posts: 56 
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Post by gabe on Mar 21, 2022 6:44:21 GMT -5
Hi all. I have been looking around for a while now for a streaming service to use instead of always going through my sizeable disc collection. I finally settled on Apple TV 4K and have that hooked up to the RMC-1. The Apple always converts its audio output to LPCM for some reason, and the RMC shows this as a Stereo input not Dolby, DTS, etc. The resulting sound is unpleasant and unpredictable as the RMC tries to recreate the surround sound field. I have tried changing sound output formats in the Apple, but then I lose Atmos. Nice......right? Is it possible I have something set incorrectly in the RMC? I have input processing set to auto at this time, and I think I remember trying surround as well with the same result. Any ideas? If not, this thing is going in the trash. Thanks all.
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Post by doc1963 on Mar 21, 2022 7:23:17 GMT -5
Hi all. I have been looking around for a while now for a streaming service to use instead of always going through my sizeable disc collection. I finally settled on Apple TV 4K and have that hooked up to the RMC-1. The Apple always converts its audio output to LPCM for some reason, and the RMC shows this as a Stereo input not Dolby, DTS, etc. The resulting sound is unpleasant and unpredictable as the RMC tries to recreate the surround sound field. I have tried changing sound output formats in the Apple, but then I lose Atmos. Nice......right? Is it possible I have something set incorrectly in the RMC? I have input processing set to auto at this time, and I think I remember trying surround as well with the same result. Any ideas? If not, this thing is going in the trash. Thanks all. The AppleTV does not do “passthrough” audio (otherwise known as "bitstream"). That's a well documented fact that has been discussed ad nauseam within many A/V forums. The ATV4K receives whatever audio format that is being delivered by the content provider (which is typically DD+), decodes it internally (using a licensed Dolby decoder), and passes lossless PCM along to your audio processor. In the event of DD+/Atmos, the decoded LPCM is repackaged along with the Atmos metadata within a Dolby MAT container (also licensed by Dolby) which your processor correctly identifies and processes as “Atmos”. When considering the above, it doesn’t matter where the decoding takes place as what your processor is receiving from the ATV4K (LPCM) is “lossless” to the original content. However, the AppleTV does not support Atmos via TrueHD. So if part of your intent was to rip your owned physical discs and use apps such as Infuse, Plex or Emby to stream them locally, unfortunately those won’t play back with Atmos audio (you'd get only the hi-rez core audio). If you need that option, then maybe the Nvidia Shield Pro would have been a better choice as it does support audio passthrough. However, there are trade offs to be made with the Shield as well (I own two of them). Unfortunately, as of now, there’s still no one singularly perfect streaming box. The correct way to configure your AppleTV's audio setting is "Auto". Then, when the ATV4K reads your RMC-1's EDID, it will also report "Atmos Enabled". Do not use the "Stereo" or "Dolby Digital 5.1" settings as those choices will output exactly what the names imply. "Stereo" will output down-mixed PCM 2.0 and "Dolby Digital 5.1" will output recompressed conventional ( lossy) DD 5.1. Now, if the incoming content is 5.1, your RMC-1 will report it’s receiving " PCM 5.1" and will engage the Dolby Upmixer by default. The same reporting applies to 7.1 or 2.0 content. When the content is Atmos, the ATV4K is sending Dolby MAT (which the XMC/RMC rather incorrectly identifies as TrueHD) and your RMC-1 will report " Atmos". Depending upon how your RMC-1 is configured, upmixing of content with a lower channel count than that of your physical speaker configuration will always occur. If that’s not what you want, then you will need to manually change the RMC's post-processing mode or maybe configure a different speaker preset that doesn’t include the height channels. |
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gabe
Minor Hero
Posts: 56
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Post by gabe on Mar 23, 2022 8:15:29 GMT -5
Well. kinda. If I rent a movie from Apple it shows and plays surround or atmos correctly. If I watch concert videos from a separate app within the Apple tv is sends stereo to the rmc which then does some times good, sometimes not job of recreating the sound field. Also, the supposedly lossless compression scheme for music is almost unlistenable. No bass, no highs, a bighting upper midrange, and such a loss of left/right difference signal that the processor does not have enough to work with to create simulated sound. If I have this thing and the rmc set up correctly, it is going in the trash unless someone here wants it.
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Post by LuisV on Mar 23, 2022 8:18:34 GMT -5
I wouldn't toss it in the trash, trade it in for an Nvidia Shield.
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cawgijoe
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"We made too many of the wrong mistakes." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 4,926
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Post by cawgijoe on Mar 23, 2022 8:29:28 GMT -5
I don't have Atmos so can't comment there. I do listen with Apple Music occasionally through the Apple TV and it sounds great. If you can't figure out what the issue is, either sell or give it away here, but don't trash it.
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Post by doc1963 on Mar 23, 2022 8:42:59 GMT -5
Well. kinda. If I rent a movie from Apple it shows and plays surround or atmos correctly. If I watch concert videos from a separate app within the Apple tv is sends stereo to the rmc which then does some times good, sometimes not job of recreating the sound field. Also, the supposedly lossless compression scheme for music is almost unlistenable. No bass, no highs, a bighting upper midrange, and such a loss of left/right difference signal that the processor does not have enough to work with to create simulated sound. If I have this thing and the rmc set up correctly, it is going in the trash unless someone here wants it. The "content", how it's sent, and what format it is presented in is entirely up to the content provider and app developer. For example, you will never get anything other than PCM 2.0 (and no HDR) from the YouTube app on the AppleTV platform. That's not Apple at play, that's Google (the app creator and supporter). That won't change until Google makes it so. However, that same app might offer something different on an Android based platform. I can't comment on "lossless music" because I don't use my AppleTV for that. But as far as I know, the ATV4K only outputs 24bit/48k audio unless the app can somehow dictate otherwise. Maybe someone here with more experience using the ATV4K as a music player can comment further. Personally, I own and use both the ATV4K and the Nvidia Shield Pro. I prefer the ATV4K because of its ability to match both the content frame rate and colorspace/dynamic range... automatically... as well as its more polished GUI. Different strokes for different folks, but I definitely wouldn't throw it in the trash. I would agree that you should try an Nvidia Shield Pro, but be prepared that no one streaming box is perfect... |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Mar 23, 2022 9:04:52 GMT -5
Well. kinda. If I rent a movie from Apple it shows and plays surround or atmos correctly. If I watch concert videos from a separate app within the Apple tv is sends stereo to the rmc which then does some times good, sometimes not job of recreating the sound field. Also, the supposedly lossless compression scheme for music is almost unlistenable. No bass, no highs, a bighting upper midrange, and such a loss of left/right difference signal that the processor does not have enough to work with to create simulated sound. If I have this thing and the rmc set up correctly, it is going in the trash unless someone here wants it. I’ll take it. I think it does it decent job…I’m surprised it’s performing so poorly for you. Bummer. I do have to say that Apple Music-lossless leaves a bit to be desired in how it can be extracted. Apple Music lossless thru ATV4K vs my Amazon lossless via my iMac in exclusive mode, Amazon music sounds eons better. But my iMac is too old to do Apple Music lossless. And even if it did, it doesn’t do exclusive mode. Hence the 2 music subscriptions. One for the family and one for my system. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Mar 23, 2022 9:25:51 GMT -5
Well. kinda. If I rent a movie from Apple it shows and plays surround or atmos correctly. If I watch concert videos from a separate app within the Apple tv is sends stereo to the rmc which then does some times good, sometimes not job of recreating the sound field. Also, the supposedly lossless compression scheme for music is almost unlistenable. No bass, no highs, a bighting upper midrange, and such a loss of left/right difference signal that the processor does not have enough to work with to create simulated sound. If I have this thing and the rmc set up correctly, it is going in the trash unless someone here wants it. It would help if you could be more specific, as doc1963 explained, all audio from the TV is output at 24/48, which means that for most music it’s resampled. I listen to Apple Music from a variety of sources including the TV and it normally sounds very good; this includes stereo, multichannel, and Atmos / Spacial Audio. What is the ‘separate app’ that’s sending the ‘unlistenable’ music, maybe someone here can give more specific recommendations as to how to improve the situation. There are a lot of TVs around working very well, including with the RMC/XMC, but it might not be right for the app or service you want to use. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 24, 2022 0:33:37 GMT -5
However, the AppleTV does not support Atmos via TrueHD. This particular comment interests me, my XMC-2 displays TrueHD in the middle and Atmos above it when watching via an Apple TV4K (current model) and the ceiling speakers are active for any Atmos source. Doesn't that indicate it is playing Atmos over a TrueHD base? Cheers Gary |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Mar 24, 2022 4:45:25 GMT -5
However, the AppleTV does not support Atmos via TrueHD. This particular comment interests me, my XMC-2 displays TrueHD in the middle and Atmos above it when watching via an Apple TV4K (current model) and the ceiling speakers are active for any Atmos source. Doesn't that indicate it is playing Atmos over a TrueHD base? Cheers Gary It’s been mentioned before, because of the method TV uses to send Atmos (LPCM/MAT), the G3P sees a lossless signal and assumes it’s TrueHD (which it’s not, as currently no one streams it). Some processors more accurately describe it as LPCM/Atmos (or something similar), but we just have to understand that it’s not TrueHD, but is Atmos. |
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Post by doc1963 on Mar 24, 2022 4:50:24 GMT -5
However, the AppleTV does not support Atmos via TrueHD. This particular comment interests me, my XMC-2 displays TrueHD in the middle and Atmos above it when watching via an Apple TV4K (current model) and the ceiling speakers are active for any Atmos source. Doesn't that indicate it is playing Atmos over a TrueHD base? Cheers Gary Unfortunately, no, it means that the Gen3 processors misrepresent incoming Dolby MAT as “TrueHD”. It’s simply a reporting misnomer. However, LPCM along with the appropriate metadata encapsulated within a Dolby MAT container is Atmos and your G3P will correctly trigger “Atmos” processing. EDIT: To expand upon a comment that AudioHTIT made directly above, D&M units report incoming Dolby MAT as simply “Atmos” as both the incoming signal and processing mode. |
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Post by hsamwel on Mar 25, 2022 11:57:10 GMT -5
Well. kinda. If I rent a movie from Apple it shows and plays surround or atmos correctly. If I watch concert videos from a separate app within the Apple tv is sends stereo to the rmc which then does some times good, sometimes not job of recreating the sound field. Also, the supposedly lossless compression scheme for music is almost unlistenable. No bass, no highs, a bighting upper midrange, and such a loss of left/right difference signal that the processor does not have enough to work with to create simulated sound. If I have this thing and the rmc set up correctly, it is going in the trash unless someone here wants it. The thing is AppleTV also has the LOCKED sample rate output. It will ALWAYS output 48khz. If the audio/music is sampled differently it will resample the sound, even though called ”lossless”.. Ususally this is not an issue with movies as more than 99% are 48khz. But music which nowadays comes in alot of sample flavours this can be a bit of a issue. I wouldn’t use AppleTV for anything music related. Unless you know it is 48khz like most of the Atmos music content. |
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gabe
Minor Hero
Posts: 56
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Post by gabe on Mar 26, 2022 7:20:25 GMT -5
Hi again all. The app in question is Quello for concert videos. Those should not appear in the info menu as stereo as far as I know. There is an option to change the audio output to 16 bit on Apple TV but I don't know why a guy would do that unless there was a compatibility problem with audio being sent directly to a TV. Movies and spatial audio do not sound too bad, but the upsampled 16 bit stuff CAN be terrible. That is the thing, sometimes it is almost OK and sometimes it is like.............yuck. I am talking about a direct comparison to the same song on a disc I own and/or a song I have been listening to for ages that I know how should sound. Thanks for the suggestions but I think I am done with Apple. On here I was really trying to see if thee was some magic setting or comnbination of settings that someone found that worked.
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