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Post by audiobill on Nov 8, 2022 5:45:56 GMT -5
Just for fun, I whipped up a block diagram of my system - Mac Mini, turntable, 3 dacs, two preamps, monoblock tube power amps, solid state power amp and three sets of speakers!
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Post by brutiarti on Nov 8, 2022 8:17:43 GMT -5
View AttachmentJust for fun, I whipped up a block diagram of my system - Mac Mini, turntable, 3 dacs, two preamps, monoblock tube power amps, solid state power amp and three sets of speakers! What about some pictures?
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Post by audiobill on Nov 8, 2022 17:43:42 GMT -5
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Post by brutiarti on Nov 9, 2022 12:15:17 GMT -5
Beautiful looking system audiobill, congrats! What differences do you find among the Yggy, D1100 and the Dac from the 2600?? Significant??
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Post by audiobill on Nov 9, 2022 12:25:20 GMT -5
I've compared these dacs using my MC275 180 wpc tube monoblocks and my MC452 450 wpc amp through my Maggie 3.6/r, Dynaudio Gemini, and PBN Montana EPS speakers as well as my Sennheiser HD-600 headphones.
Using REW, my room isn't introducing important sonic anomalies.
After informal level matching, I hear very little, if any, difference between the Yggdrasil and the Sabre dac built into my MC2600 tube based preamp.
Maybe here or there I think I do, but after double checking I don't.
My theory is that a critical part of a dac is the power supply and the analog output stage, and with the McIntosh tube pre the power supply is of course very robust and Mc certainly knows how to build a great tube analog output stage. The Mc filter choices in their Sabre dac implementation may well reflect their sonic priorities as well. Claims of Sabre dacs being "bright" just aren't supported in my system(s).
Since Sabres are used in so many dacs, it seems hard to make such blanket judgments.
I plan to keep both of these dacs actively in my system; I can easily switch dacs on the fly. I like lots of options in my listening as you know.
However, the McIntosh D1100 easily trumps these two for digital conversion. Very detailed and deep, spacious sound with no noise. Because it is a full-featured digital preamp, it also sports a very robust power supply and output stage. If the D1100 is affordable to a buyer, the best I've ever heard. Check the design and features online.
Findings - make sure your dac and/or preamp has a very robust power supply and output stage, it matters. And including a dac into a pre is a great idea; it leverages strong existing circuitry and can be ignored if dacs evolve much further.
Hope this helps!
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Post by 405x5 on Nov 9, 2022 13:45:36 GMT -5
What about some pictures? Just posted. Lots of impressive gear there Bill…..how come you don’t like Macintosh lol?
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Post by audiobill on Nov 9, 2022 13:59:52 GMT -5
It's just that my lovely bride keeps asking for more blue meters...What's an obedient husband to do?
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Post by 405x5 on Nov 9, 2022 16:59:29 GMT -5
It's just that my lovely bride keeps asking for more blue meters...What's an obedient husband to do? No better excuse to whip out the Wallet than that one!
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,961
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Post by KeithL on Nov 10, 2022 12:11:21 GMT -5
I've heard many DACs with Sabre chips in them that sounded excessively bright. It's weird; they measure flat but sound like there's about a 1 dB boost centered around 10k. (it is very distinctive and obvious on the ones that sound that way... and, for better or worse, it tends to emphasize detail over substance.) However, when they sound "normal", they sound just fine. It obviously has a lot to do with both circuit design, implementation, and filter choice - since they don't always sound like that. (I have seen anecdotal claims that they are also especially fussy about some details of the circuitry around them.) Also, to be blunt, McIntosh gear is known for sounding a bit warm, so perhaps when using them with McIntosh gear a slight bit of brightness is a good thing... I've compared these dacs using my MC275 180 wpc tube monoblocks and my MC452 450 wpc amp through my Maggie 3.6/r, Dynaudio Gemini, and PBN Montana EPS speakers as well as my Sennheiser HD-600 headphones. Using REW, my room isn't introducing important sonic anomalies. After informal level matching, I hear very little, if any, difference between the Yggdrasil and the Sabre dac built into my MC2600 tube based preamp. Maybe here or there I think I do, but after double checking I don't. My theory is that a critical part of a dac is the power supply and the analog output stage, and with the McIntosh tube pre the power supply is of course very robust and Mc certainly knows how to build a great tube analog output stage. The Mc filter choices in their Sabre dac implementation may well reflect their sonic priorities as well. Claims of Sabre dacs being "bright" just aren't supported in my system(s). Since Sabres are used in so many dacs, it seems hard to make such blanket judgments. I plan to keep both of these dacs actively in my system; I can easily switch dacs on the fly. I like lots of options in my listening as you know. However, the McIntosh D1100 easily trumps these two for digital conversion. Very detailed and deep, spacious sound with no noise. Because it is a full-featured digital preamp, it also sports a very robust power supply and output stage. If the D1100 is affordable to a buyer, the best I've ever heard. Check the design and features online. Findings - make sure your dac and/or preamp has a very robust power supply and output stage, it matters. And including a dac into a pre is a great idea; it leverages strong existing circuitry and can be ignored if dacs evolve much further. Hope this helps!
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,961
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Post by KeithL on Nov 10, 2022 12:13:55 GMT -5
Very pretty... and very... blue. The single thing I don't like is the green lighting under the peanut tubes... I've always felt that tubes should be amber or yellow... So, if you're going to add LEDs to light them, you should use amber ones... but that's just my personal preference.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,961
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Post by KeithL on Nov 10, 2022 13:09:59 GMT -5
To be honest I haven't listened to much McIntosh gear lately... and not much of their modern equipment ever... And I have never heard that particular model that I am aware of. But, from previous experience, I can say that all of their older gear that I have heard did tend to have a somewhat "smoothed over" sound. I can also say that most people do still characterize that as being "McIntosh's house sound". I actually spoke to someone the other day who has both McIntosh and Emotiva amps and he actually mentioned that "his McIntosh amps sounded warmer". (He wasn't complaining... and I don't recall what models he said he had.) I would also add that, from my experience, output transformers always add some degree of non-linearity to an audio signal. There is no transformer on this planet that introduces less nonlinearity than NO transformer at all. Really good ones can be quite good... but there is no such thing as a perfect transformer. Yes, a transformer is a convenient way to couple output devices in a balance configuration, but it will ALWAYS also introduce other nonlinearities. Now, according to that test report, "they didn't notice the transformers having any effect on the frequency response"... But, since there is no other technical reason to include output transformers, I have to assume they are intended to introduce some slight amount of "desirable coloration". And, unless they really are just an expensive affectation, which I doubt, then I have to conclude that as being their intended purpose. I should also note that I wouldn't specifically expect that sort of non-linearity to show up on standard tests for things like noise and THD... Just as Sabre DACs, even the ones that audibly sound unpleasantly bright, always measure ruler flat. In the case of DACs the difference is pretty obviously in "time domain related performance"... including filters... (There are obvious differences there... which wouldn't be expected to show up in static THD and frequency response measurements.) As I've often said.... Either they sound different... in a way you like... or they sound the same... There is no third option. Just for the record... Most of the specs of the MC462 seemed quite respectable... However the damping factor was rather low... (apparently around 40 into a 4 Ohm speaker)... (The low damping factor is almost certainly a consequence of those transformers and will affect the sound with some speakers.) View AttachmentDo you bluntly mean "warm" as in this result from Stereophile's test of the MC462? "As a result, the response with our standard simulated loudspeaker varied by ±0.2dB (fig.1, gray trace). The channels' levels match to within 0.1dB, and the audioband response into 8 ohms (blue and red traces) and 4 ohms (cyan, magenta) is flat up to 20kHz. Into 2 ohms (green trace), a slight top-octave rolloff reaches –0.4dB at 20kHz. The MC462 reproduced a 1kHz squarewave with short risetimes and flat tops and bottoms (fig.2), suggesting that the amplifier's use of output transformers doesn't affect its low-frequency reproduction. A 10kHz squarewave was reproduced without overshoot or ringing (fig.3)."
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Post by leonski on Oct 11, 2023 15:34:33 GMT -5
How many dedicated power circuits and what into each? I see 5 remotes and keyboard / mouse. sure that's enough?
IMO, maggies that close to the side wall may have issues.....And might even consider tweeters out, just for a test?
I'd LOVE to hear those KEF in a real system.....not a dealer or in a hotel room
Just for the record... Most of the specs of the MC462 seemed quite respectable... However the damping factor was rather low... (apparently around 40 into a 4 Ohm speaker)... (The low damping factor is almost certainly a consequence of those transformers and will affect the sound with some speakers.)
speaker amp matching is VITAL. Maybe want to avoid a sealed / box speaker with that amp? Might benefit from higher damping.
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Post by audiobill on Oct 14, 2023 5:50:25 GMT -5
Not really using anything but the KEF blades lately, they are excellent.
And, fwiw Maggies are not particularly sensitive to side walls, fore/aft critical due to 50% reflected sound.
The Mac MC452 amp is simply superb, and powerful at a conservative 450wpc.
And I personally find too high a damping factor can sound sterile. Accuracy vs musical, dentist drill vs a massage…..especially into my rear ported KEF Blades.
The McIntosh components just sound so real to my ears and soul.
Kind of like too much negative feedback in an amplifier design can measure great, but sound dry and sterile. But some listen with their eyes glued to a spec sheet and some of us use our ears.
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Post by simpleman68 on Oct 14, 2023 7:31:51 GMT -5
Not really using anything but the KEF blades lately, they are excellent. And, fwiw Maggies are not particularly sensitive to side walls, fore/aft critical due to 50% reflected sound. The Mac MC452 amp is simply superb, and powerful at a conservative 450wpc. One of these days I'm gonna stop up your way for a listen. I do have some meetings up your way in November time frame. I'll shout when I get some firm dates. Scott
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Post by audiobill on Oct 14, 2023 7:34:13 GMT -5
Cool, would be great to see you!
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Post by leewilli on Oct 14, 2023 14:08:13 GMT -5
Awesome setup audiobill! I see you have multiple sets of speakers but you didn't list a switcher in your gear sig. Do you manually move cables or do you have a switcher? I only have 1 pair of towers serving double duty but I would like to get a pair of bookshelves for 2 channel enjoyment. Thanks
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Post by audiobill on Oct 14, 2023 15:05:56 GMT -5
Thank you.
In the past, I’ve made 15A break before make dpdt switches with internal 12ga ofc copper wire (some made for members here!!), but lately just running my KEF Blades and any switching done manually to avoid any possible contact resistance of excess cables, switches, etc.
Just be absolutely sure not to switch with amps on, especially if they are tube amps.
Bill
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Post by leewilli on Oct 14, 2023 15:34:02 GMT -5
Thanks Bill. I wanna do the manual thing (with amps off of course), but I have to keep things really simple based on the location of my setup and use (home theater and main TV in Living Room). With use by my kids and wife for daily and ad-hoc music play, I think I'll look for a passive switcher between my amp and LR.
Much appreciated Bill!
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Post by audiobill on Oct 14, 2023 16:18:23 GMT -5
Cool. Quality matters with this.
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Post by leonski on Oct 14, 2023 17:36:02 GMT -5
Funny......Some persons LOVE MC.....And will go to great lengths to get it and keep it.......I worked with a guy at the Grand Jury who owned a LOT of MC gear, some of which was 30 to 40 years old.....
A TEST for Maggies?
Cover one ear. doesnt' matter which. Put the uncovered ear near the speaker....on the edge / side. Move forward/backward. At some point you will hear nothing. That is the start of the side lobe / null.....
The reason I don't like 'em to close to a wall....is back loading or corner loading....For some reason I've always 'preferred' 'em 30" or so from the nearest side wall.......
I don't know any technical details about the KEF....So a damping factor 'call' would not be mine to make.......I know my panels are good with tubes OR SS......so apparently DF is not a first order problem.....
And for leewilli? Be carefull with switchers. Tubes do NOT like running 'open / no load' and may rebel.....SS, not so much. I HATE speaker level switchers......If an ALL SS system? Not so much a problem IF you
have 'BREAK BEFORE MAKE' switching......
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