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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 9, 2022 16:24:30 GMT -5
I have a plenitude of bare SATA drives. I have three "SATA drive cradles" of different makes. All of the drives work in all of the cradles EXCEPT for my Seagate music library drive.
If I plug that drive into either of two cradles and power it up, the lights come on - the drive spins (I can hear it) - the heads initialize - but the computer WILL NOT recognize the drive! I tried different USB cables, different power supplies - Nope - the computer can't see the drive.
Yet when I plug the same drive into the cradle it "likes," and everything works perfectly. WTF? I thought SATA was supposed to be universal. Why is this happening?
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Post by vcautokid on Dec 9, 2022 21:37:15 GMT -5
Could never remember is master and slave drive designation even comes into play here. Will this Seagate work on another computer?
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 9, 2022 23:14:36 GMT -5
Works fine with other computers - but only in the one drive cradle. All my other drives work fine in any of the three cradles.
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Post by vcautokid on Dec 10, 2022 8:42:13 GMT -5
Wonder what is unique about the one drive cradle vs the other 3 cradles?
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 10, 2022 17:55:10 GMT -5
I'll find out for sure later this month. The Baton Rouge Mac Users Group (BRMUG) has, as one of the founding members, a gentleman who is the head of Louisiana State University's computer system and also State Supercomputer Project coordinator. His knowledge of computing arcana is unmatched. He'll know off the top of his head. If I had to guess, I'd posit that the SATA standard has changed over time. Two of my drive cradles (being newer) have support for all the flavors of SATA while the problem cradle (being the oldest of the three) is more limited. But I could be wrong...
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Post by spiette on Dec 12, 2022 14:50:44 GMT -5
Check to see if the two cradles that don't work are providing 3.3v on the power cables. Often that's an orange wire on the power connector.
Yes, there have been revisions of the SATA standard but the change that switched the pins from 3.3v to a power up signal has been what has caused me the most pain when connecting newer drives to older systems.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 16, 2022 7:07:16 GMT -5
OK - I spoke with my expert, and he says:
1. As drives age, they sometimes require more power to spin up. Two of my cradles may not supply sufficient power to get my one "problem" drive to spin up in time. Initialization of the drive must occur within a time window or the initialization crashes and must be restarted. The way to avoid this is to let the drive spin up (it won't be identified by the host computer, but that's OK - just get it spinning) and then quickly power cycle the drive's cradle. This will restart the initialization process, and since the drive is already spinning, it should initialize this time within the time window that the host computer allows.
2. As cradles age, their power supplies become weaker. The power transistor in the wall wart can't supply the "cranking power" that it supplied when it was new. Also, the newer the cradle, the wimpier the power supply (in general).
3. The USB port may be unable to supply the current that the drive needs. Many cradles have wall-warts ONLY to start the drive. Once spun up, the drive is operating primarily on the power suppled by the USB port of the host computer. If you have the USB port system overloaded with multiple devices, the drive may not get sufficient current to continue running. Sometimes the wall wart supplements the USB host after startup, but sometimes not.
4. One way to avoid these problems is to use external, self-powered, high-speed USB hubs. My advisor uses three external hubs on his home computer - one ONLY for USB-HDDs - one ONLY for USB memory sticks (some of which can pull more power than the spinning drives) - and one ONLY for mouse and keyboard type devices. Not only does this arrangement provide sufficient power to all devices, but also it avoids having slower devices on the specific branch (such as mice and keyboards) from slowing down data transfers for the other device branches.
It was all news to me...
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 9,945
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Post by KeithL on Dec 16, 2022 11:46:44 GMT -5
I'm going to offer a VERY GENERAL piece of advice here... but one that I've lived by for years.
If you have a drive that is behaving oddly or erratically: replace it.
(And do so while it is still operating reliably enough to be migrated over to a new drive quickly and easily.)
The bottom line is that, in most cases, the cost of a new drive is FAR less than the cost of the aggravation you will experience if a drive fails in use.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 16, 2022 16:09:16 GMT -5
The comment about wall-warts aging makes me think... "Laboratory grade" variable-voltage-output power supplies are available on Amazon for a song. Their amperage capacity is many times that of the "wall warts" typically sold with DC-powered audio gear. In fact, lab power supplies can also be bought with multiple voltage outputs. Would it make any audible difference to put a better-quality power supply on parts of your audio system? What DC-powered equipment does my audio system use?
External USB library drive - 12VDC
NUC computer - 19.5VDC
DAC - 5VDC
Tube buffer - 12VDC
Remote-controlled passive preamp - 5VDC
Some of these absolutely wouldn't matter, because the DC component has nothing to do with the audio path. In the remote-controlled passive-preamp, for example, the DC is only used to move the stepper motor for the ganged volume control (nothing to do with the audio path). But on the other components, the stability and absence of ripple on the power supply might affect the audio electronics?
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Dec 16, 2022 17:10:33 GMT -5
There are a lot of different factors involved with that idea... The bottom line is that I would want to know some specifics of the circuitry in each device before I would even guess whether a "better" power supply would make any difference or not. First of all, different applications have very different requirements, which favor different solutions. For example actual computers require a very solid power supply but are quite insensitive to small amounts of noise. A typical PC will be quite happy with a power supply that can deliver lots of current at somewhere between 4.8V and 5.1V... But computers don't generally mind 50 mV or so of noise and won't benefit if you reduce or eliminate it... This is quite different than many analog audio circuits, which will cheerfully run from a wide range of voltages, but many of which are quite sensitive to noise. I would expect a tube buffer, which almost certainly contains single-ended analog circuitry, to internally be VERY sensitive to noise. So, if it doesn't have internal regulators, it will definitely benefit from a better and quieter power supply. But, if it DOES have internal regulators, then it probably won't matter. And, while a USB powered DAC, which is powered by the computer's USB power, may or may not be sensitive to noise... Most AC-powered DACs, even if they're USB DACs, aren't especially sensitive to noise on the computer's USB port (because they're not using USB power from the computer). But they may have a problem with ground noise on the computer... But, then a DAC connected via Toslink will be immune to that noise... And, with a Coax connection, it will depends on the exact details of that connection (for example, whether it's galvanically isolated or not)... I would also suggest that, unless you actually need a single supply to deliver different voltages at different times, a variable voltage supply is NOT a good idea to power individual devices. A variable voltage supply is going to be more complicated than a fixed voltage supply... which will make it cost more... and offer more opportunities for it to malfunction. It will also probably be at least somewhat less efficient, and may suffer from other performance limitations, compared to a fixed voltage supply. (And, if you connect it to something, and forget to set the correct voltage for that particular device, you might blow something up.) In short, if you're going to "upgrade" power supplies, I would absolutely go with separate fixed-voltage supplies (for anything other than "experimental purposes")... The comment about wall-warts aging makes me think... "Laboratory grade" variable-voltage-output power supplies are available on Amazon for a song. Their amperage capacity is many times that of the "wall warts" typically sold with DC-powered audio gear. In fact, lab power supplies can also be bought with multiple voltage outputs. Would it make any audible difference to put a better-quality power supply on parts of your audio system? What DC-powered equipment does my audio system use? External USB library drive - 12VDC NUC computer - 19.5VDC DAC - 5VDC Tube buffer - 12VDC Remote-controlled passive preamp - 5VDC Some of these absolutely wouldn't matter, because the DC component has nothing to do with the audio path. In the remote-controlled passive-preamp, for example, the DC is only used to move the stepper motor for the ganged volume control (nothing to do with the audio path). But on the other components, the stability and absence of ripple on the power supply might affect the audio electronics? |
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Post by vcautokid on Dec 16, 2022 19:54:48 GMT -5
I sold so called upgrade power supplies. It was either no difference at all, or pure bull Schiit. A big support headache that no one benefits from. I used to get 5 to 10 calls a day about things getting fried, or worse. Guess who did most of the RMAs for the this of least loved issues. Even manufacturers threatening to pull their products and cease warranty support if a 3rd party external power supply was used. For good reason. There is a reason the stock supply works just fine. And the idea of upgrading to out think and build the better mouse trap is just silly. The only trap here is hassles, blown up gear. Endless RMAs, and voided warranties. I got more people out of these 3rd party power supplies and into better common sense. I wasn’t going to change world on this and many disagree with me. They hide under the expert names like “audiophile”. A fool and his money are soon parted, and his gear smoke in the process. Stay stock, stay happy.
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Post by markc on Dec 17, 2022 6:26:28 GMT -5
I'm with Keith on this.
Hard drives regularly fail and, especially if you do not have a perfect backup of this drive, take the hit and buy a new one.
Storage is relatively cheap. By the time you have spend £10 on faffing around with power supplies, this could have gone towards a new drive.
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Post by vcautokid on Dec 17, 2022 10:21:35 GMT -5
Totally true. Usually with no warning at all. If you are really good and lucky some symptom but when it goes, it goes! Multi-factor backup has been my deal for years.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 17, 2022 17:46:41 GMT -5
Since my library drive seems to spin continuously when hooked up to the music server, it seems to me that an “Enterprise” drive might be a good replacement unit. These drives offer (supposedly) more robust bearings, cooler operating temperatures, and a longer mean time between failure. Many of the Enterprise drives also seem to offer more on-board cache RAM for data buffering. Enterprise drives are also available in 5,200 rpm speeds that would also reduce bearing wear. Anyone else tried an Enterprise HDD?
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Post by marcl on Dec 17, 2022 18:40:32 GMT -5
Since my library drive seems to spin continuously when hooked up to the music server, it seems to me that an “Enterprise” drive might be a good replacement unit. These drives offer (supposedly) more robust bearings, cooler operating temperatures, and a longer mean time between failure. Many of the Enterprise drives also seem to offer more on-board cache RAM for data buffering. Enterprise drives are also available in 5,200 rpm speeds that would also reduce bearing wear. Anyone else tried an Enterprise HDD? I've been using WD Red drives in my Synology NAS for about 6 years with no failures. They're all 5200RPM 6TB. I'm gradually going to bigger drives as I expand capacity. We do a lot of photography so currently have around 30TB storage with two-disk redundancy and a full backup drive. |
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Post by donh50 on Dec 21, 2022 11:46:09 GMT -5
My WD Red drives are still good but my Synology NAS died and I haven't got around to fixing or replacing it...  Docking stations can be hit or miss, as can drives and such. I have had similar problems with different drive/dock combinations over the years. The SATA standard has evolved (though the last rev was more to clarify the spec than make any fundamental changes) but what I have had more problems with are the docking stations' interface chips and FW. Some docks provide user FW updates, some don't, but might be worth a try. If the drive does not spin up immediately, the system should retry it, but again it may be up to whatever is inside the docking station. That said I have run into an older dock with a new high-capacity drive and the dock simply would not power it. I just bought a new dock -- good opportunity for me to upgrade to a USB 3 dock. I do agree with checking the drive and considering replacement if it acts the least bit funny. They tend to last a long time then die suddenly IME. Always at the most inconvenient times, natch. SS or spinners. SATA drives are cheap but the technology was designed for short-range (~1 m) links and has not been updated to keep up with SAS or NVMe (PCIe) drives. It would take a significant rewrite to go faster/further. For the foreseeable future you'll be stuck at 6 Gb/s though that is plenty for most consumers. SAS is up to 22.5 Gb/s now, and PCIe 32 Gb/s (with 64 Gb/s in development). SAS-5 was shelved as PCIe (NVMe) seems to be taking over. I am a bit surprised more SAS drives are not available and at lower cost to compete, but except for enterprise customers most controllers are SATA and not SAS. FWIWFM - Don |
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