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Post by foggy1956 on Apr 18, 2023 19:45:22 GMT -5
I don't get why people keep wanting Emo to create a streamer. Streamers are 95% software, and that is big weakness of Emotiva's. I don't get it either. No one has been able to tell me what a streamer does that I can't get out of Plex for free. I literally was just in Las Vegas (home is Nashville, TN) and had access to all my media files at my resort. My wife and I streamed from our HDD at our house in the evenings listening on the deck at the resort, while fixing breakfast when we woke in the morning and everywhere in-between. If I had a "streamer" and I wanted to listen to my music in another room, another house, another state, I would have to disconnect the box and take it with me. There is no hardware to buy (I bought an $80 Raspberry Pi that I run Linux on so I can run 24/7 that I keep in a bedroom and out of sight). You just download and go! It is just that simple. And I'm not bragging: I have asked everyone from the Lounge to AXPONA to hi-fi shops, no one has said a "streamer" does "this" and the Plex won't. I have a Fiio m11s - 1TB of storage, plays out via balanced out, usb, or Bluetooth. Loaded with jriver and Amazon music,works over wi-fi and controllable from my phone, portable. What am I missing that a dedicated streamer does?
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Post by audiobill on Apr 19, 2023 0:07:10 GMT -5
Streaming from Qobuz?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 19, 2023 9:02:10 GMT -5
I don't think you're going to find a single answer - because everyone has different reasons. However I think you can boil it down to four categories: 1. capability Does it do what YOU want? Some people really want hi-res music from Tidal and QoBuz (a lot of streamers can do that). Some of us want bit-perfect playback from Amazon Music (very few streamers do that). Some of us want to be able to play our own local files conveniently. Some of us care about selection - but don't really care about hi-res or even lossless. And some of us want something that works at home, and in our car, and on our phone. And some of us care more about how many songs it holds, or exactly what lossless and high-res formats it supports. I would also include compatibility in here (does it work with your iPhone, or your Android phone, or your Windows computer). And, do you require portable internal storage, or are you OK with ONLY playing music where you can get an Internet connection. 2. reliability By this I DO NOT mean whether the box continues to work. What I mean is whether it always plays the song when you click on it... And whether the song always plays to the end after it starts... And whether playlists work all the time. 3. interface To be quite honest this is the biggest difference between streamers. Every service has a different interface - which you either love or hate. And some streamers have their own unified interface (like Roon) while others use separate apps for each service. (Some folks love Roon because it includes lots of outside content in its interface; personally I don't care.) And, of course, if you plan to connect it to your system or DAC, it matters what sorts of outputs your "box" has. 4. aesthetics By this I don't mean just looks; I mean the overall "feel" of the unit. Are you happy with a touch screen - or do you want buttons - or knobs. Do you like three lines of text or would you really like a color screen. There are some very expensive streaming boxes that have really attractive color screens... And do you want "a unit" at all (or would you be happy with an invisible black box that you control solely from your phone). (Personally, I don't care how pretty a screen is if it's only three inches across; and that includes phones; I prefer a web interface on a full sized monitor.) 5. There is a fifth thing that doesn't fall into one of these categories directly... and that is whether your streamer is "independent". By that I mean that the actual app that connects to the service lives in the streamer. If the app is inside the streamer, you can use your phone or whatever to call up a playlist, and it will keep playing, even if you then turn your phone off, or leave the area with it. If the app is in the phone, it is the app in the phone that connects to the service, and the phone then "casts" the music to the streamer. And, in that situation, your phone MUST stay connected and turned on if you want the music to keep playing. (And you're also "using phone data"; and it will quite playing if your phone connection gets weak.) Note that, with most streamers, you'll see a long list of "services they support", but only a few are supported by apps internal to the streamer itself. (And they frequently make it very difficult to make the distinction.) For example.... MOST streamers have internal support for Spotify. MANY streamers have internal support for Tidal and QoBuz (particularly those that support hi-res audio). But ONLY ONE OR TWO have internal support for Amazon Music (and most of those use Alexa). I don't get it either. No one has been able to tell me what a streamer does that I can't get out of Plex for free. I literally was just in Las Vegas (home is Nashville, TN) and had access to all my media files at my resort. My wife and I streamed from our HDD at our house in the evenings listening on the deck at the resort, while fixing breakfast when we woke in the morning and everywhere in-between. If I had a "streamer" and I wanted to listen to my music in another room, another house, another state, I would have to disconnect the box and take it with me. There is no hardware to buy (I bought an $80 Raspberry Pi that I run Linux on so I can run 24/7 that I keep in a bedroom and out of sight). You just download and go! It is just that simple. And I'm not bragging: I have asked everyone from the Lounge to AXPONA to hi-fi shops, no one has said a "streamer" does "this" and the Plex won't. I have a Fiio m11s - 1TB of storage, plays out via balanced out, usb, or Bluetooth. Loaded with jriver and Amazon music,works over wi-fi and controllable from my phone, portable. What am I missing that a dedicated streamer does?
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Post by rbk123 on Apr 19, 2023 18:57:10 GMT -5
I don't get it either. No one has been able to tell me what a streamer does that I can't get out of Plex for free. I literally was just in Las Vegas (home is Nashville, TN) and had access to all my media files at my resort. My wife and I streamed from our HDD at our house in the evenings listening on the deck at the resort, while fixing breakfast when we woke in the morning and everywhere in-between. If I had a "streamer" and I wanted to listen to my music in another room, another house, another state, I would have to disconnect the box and take it with me. There is no hardware to buy (I bought an $80 Raspberry Pi that I run Linux on so I can run 24/7 that I keep in a bedroom and out of sight). You just download and go! It is just that simple. And I'm not bragging: I have asked everyone from the Lounge to AXPONA to hi-fi shops, no one has said a "streamer" does "this" and the Plex won't. Agree, but I use Kodi (BMC); basically any media platform will work great and outperform a dedicated box. However the logic of "FIAT makes problematic cars that people have loads of problems with; man I wish they'd make an SUV for me to buy." is the part I don't understand.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Apr 19, 2023 20:10:54 GMT -5
Bluesound Node supports Amazon music. $8/month for lossless if you are a prime member.
To the OP is there not a streamer out there that does what you need? The Bluesound node is always on btw.
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Post by foggy1956 on Apr 19, 2023 20:34:58 GMT -5
Bluesound Node supports Amazon music. $8/month for lossless if you are a prime member. To the OP is there not a streamer out there that does what you need? The Bluesound node is always on btw. My Fiio also supports Amazon lossless. It checked the majority of Keith's boxes except perhaps not a slick UI For me, I'll trade the slick UI for portability.
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Post by Lsc on Apr 19, 2023 21:42:43 GMT -5
Bluesound Node supports Amazon music. $8/month for lossless if you are a prime member. To the OP is there not a streamer out there that does what you need? The Bluesound node is always on btw. My Fiio also supports Amazon lossless. It checked the majority of Keith's boxes except perhaps not a slick UI For me, I'll trade the slick UI for portability. Ok I’ll play along here . The Bluesound Node checks ALL the boxes that Keith outlined lol. That with the $500 DAC is probably equal to any of the multi-thousand dollar streamer dac combos they had at Axpona. I shouldn’t be by now but I’m continually amazed at the sticker prices of what they put on these “high end” components. Guess there are a lot of rich people in the world with money to burn.
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Post by jdubs on Apr 26, 2023 15:54:35 GMT -5
Why would they build a streamer when they would just be integrating the software that someone else developed? There is no way they are going to make a whole OS, and to me that is where the meat of a streamer is.
I'm having a love/hate relationship with streaming. I've gone 100% streaming: Local files, Tidal, and Qobuz. I had an Auralic Altair, and their app worked nicely, but I played around with LMS (Logitech) and realized it did everything the Auralic system did, so when it was time for a new DAC, I went LMS. Then I discovered what Roon could do... but absolutely hate the price for what I use it for. If any other streaming platform had an integrated library like Roon, I'd likely jump. EVERY dang one I've tried is separated into the various platforms (LMS, Volumio, Wiim, Bluesound). For example, on Roon if I go to Pink Floyd EVERYTHING that is in my library, on Tidal, or Qobuz is there in one place. And, the other platforms always seem to be missing something when integrating Tidal (my main platform). For example, I could live with Wiim, but the EP and Single section is totally missing from Tidal. And you never really know how the software is going to run until you actually buy the product, integrate it, and try it (youtube videos never convey the experience of the software).
So, I'm currently on a 1 year subscription with Roon, but especially with the prices going up, I'm probably going to drop it. Probably set up LMS on the NUC I use for Roon and roll with that for awhile. But, last time I looked at it LMS was getting a bit long in the tooth. Maybe Wiim?
This was more of a rant than anything... but to the OP, I'm not looking for a streamer (hardware), I'm looking for a streaming experience (software). Most of you will probably say, well, that's Roon but IMO it's overpriced, doesn't always work as promised, and has a weird customer service model for the price.
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 27, 2023 9:21:15 GMT -5
Yes - Roon is expensive and proprietary. But it works for what I want it to do. I bought the lifetime subscription back when it was cheaper and have been satisfied. In Roon-speak, what I need is an “endpoint” that Roon will recognize and that will convert Ethernet input to an output that my DAC can use.
I don’t want or need any operating-system or software “overhead” on the streamer at all - Roon covers that.
And above all, I want the streamer to output a bit-perfect copy of the incoming stream, and to cost as little as possible.
One would think that Roon themselves would recognize the need and offer their own streamers, but so far, they haven’t. I think it’s a market opportunity for someone…
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Post by KeithL on Apr 27, 2023 10:43:12 GMT -5
I don't disagree with your idea... but there is one thing you may not understand... The circuitry required for a DAC to have a Coax or Optical S/PDIF input is pretty simple (it's called "a S/PDIF receiver" and it's quite standardized). When you add USB you need to add another piece of circuitry (a "USB audio bridge"). And, while the internal circuitry in these is pretty complicated, they have also gotten pretty standardized. And there are very specific standards for "S/PDIF audio data" and "USB audio data". (And, once something becomes standardized, no matter how complex it is inside, someone will put it in a single chip, for a reasonable price.) However, at least for now, there is no single standard for "audio data over Ethernet". Ethernet was designed for DATA... and the additional steps of "converting your audio into data and then converting it back again at the other end" still remain. At the moment there are several different competing standards for doing this like DTS PlayFi, and DLNA, and Roon's proprietary one (as well as others like Dante). But, until and if a single standard emerges, streamers are going to remain "little computers with Ethernet ports running custom software". At the moment the closest we have to such a "lowest common denominator", in terms of a way to send audio over Ethernet, is DLNA - and I believe Roon supports it. But I don't believe that, at the moment, Roon has enough customers to justify the cost of developing a custom hardware solution like a streamer. Their main software product is Roon... And their main hardware product is basically a NUC, with Roon software installed on it, and a Roon logo on the front... They could do a "Roon streamer" the same way... but they would have to sell a lot of low cost "Roon streamers" to justify the effort and cost... And, to be quite blunt, there's not much reason why someone would buy a "Roon branded DLNA streamer", instead of just buying some other DLNA-capable client... In order to justify developing their own proprietary solution, which could offer Roon-specific advantages, they would have to expect to sell a lot of them. (I assume that people buy their computer because setting up Roon and configuring it is a bit of a nuisance... so it's easier to buy one as "a box"... but setting up a streamer is much simpler.) The economics of developing and supporting a software product are very different than the economics of designing and selling custom hardware. And, since Roon DOES work with so many other things, which is one of the nice things about it, I'm not sure how many people would actually purchase a Roon-branded streamer. (Especially if it cost significantly more than other competitive streamers.) Yes - Roon is expensive and proprietary. But it works for what I want it to do. I bought the lifetime subscription back when it was cheaper and have been satisfied. In Roon-speak, what I need is an “endpoint” that Roon will recognize and that will convert Ethernet input to an output that my DAC can use. I don’t want or need any operating-system or software “overhead” on the streamer at all - Roon covers that. And above all, I want the streamer to output a bit-perfect copy of the incoming stream, and to cost as little as possible. One would think that Roon themselves would recognize the need and offer their own streamers, but so far, they haven’t. I think it’s a market opportunity for someone…
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Post by KeithL on Apr 27, 2023 11:32:12 GMT -5
I agree with you... to a point... but I can offer a bit of perspective on WHY people are willing to burn that money... (This is based solely on my personal preferences and experiences... but I suspect that they are shared, at least in part, by lots of people.) I think that streaming is a great IDEA. I like being able to just punch up a song when I want to hear it. I still own a lot of CDs, and have a lot of files on my hard drive, because it has been my experience that my streaming service doesn't ALWAYS have the track I want. And, yes, there are still one or two tracks that NO streaming service seems to have... and it still pisses me off. (Unlike some folks, sometimes I'm satisfied to have a computer find "music I'll like" for me, but quite often I want to hear a specific version of a specific track.) I still recall a commercial that perfectly exemplified "the promise of cable and streaming TV".... A tired woman's voice recites: "No, the beds ain't great, we don't have air conditioning, and there's no room service, but you can see every version of every movie ever made, right on your TV, whenever you want to watch it". (I'm paraphrasing that - but you get the idea. And, sadly, I'm still waiting for that promise to actually be fulfilled, at least for music if not for movies.) However, to be quite blunt, I've NEVER found a streaming device or service whose INTERFACE I was satisfied with. I DO NOT want to have to pick songs from my phone... And having to have my phone connected and running every minute I listen to music is a deal breaker. And I really WOULD like to be able to access everything from any web browser on any computer in the house... WITHOUT loading any special software. But I DO want the music I've queued up to keep playing if I reboot the computer. And I DO NOT want to have my screen cluttered up with pictures, advertisements, helpful hints, and news... And, if I want to see every other album that group has ever made, I'll ASK for the list. I'm kind of old school when it comes to files. For my local storage I make a folder for the group, with a folder inside it for each album, and each song a separate file in the appropriate album folder. I don't mind using my favorite file manager to navigate to the correct folder. And, for files I like to hear as a group, the ability to make playlists is useful. But, to be honest, I don't care all that much about album covers, or deep content, or other features. And I ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY DO NOT want my player program to "organize my music FOR me". I use Volumio, running on a Raspberry Pi, to listen to files on my local drive... And, for streaming, I find that Amazon Music has the best selection of the music I listen to at the best quality... And, to be honest, I find Volumio's interface "acceptable" (it runs from a web browser and doesn't irritate me too much). I don't especially like Amazon Music's web interface... but I find it "tolerable". Unfortunately most streaming devices don't support Amazon Music with a direct connection... And, although their computer client is better, it has other issues (it doesn't support WASAPI and it doesn't play well with other things on the computer that use audio). (BlueSound is one of the very few streamers that does actually support connecting to Amazon Music directly... but then I'm stuck with their interface.) The bottom line of all this is as follows... I suspect that there are three basic reasons why some people are willing to spend absurd amounts of money on pre-configured streaming boxes... 1. Some of them are convinced that some of these fancy boxes will actually give them better audio quality (which I sincerely doubt). 2. Some of them are either not computer literate or simply find the very idea of having to set up something on a computer too daunting. Therefore they're willing to pay a lot to have someone do it for them. (Compare the cost of one of those expensive boxes to actually paying someone to come to your house and set up Roon for you.) 3. MANY of them simply ARE NOT satisfied with the features and interfaces of any of the current streaming services and devices... And they imagine that, if they just find the right product, or "a really good product", it will actually satisfy them. (And, if they're really lucky, maybe they actually will be satisfied.) To be quite blunt, after doing a lot of research, and actually being in the industry, I personally have never been able to find what I consider to be "the perfect streaming product". (And, that being the case, I have no incentive to spend a lot of money for something that I won't like any better than Volumio running on a Raspberry Pi sitting next to a laptop running Amazon Music.) My Fiio also supports Amazon lossless. It checked the majority of Keith's boxes except perhaps not a slick UI For me, I'll trade the slick UI for portability. Ok I’ll play along here . The Bluesound Node checks ALL the boxes that Keith outlined lol. That with the $500 DAC is probably equal to any of the multi-thousand dollar streamer dac combos they had at Axpona. I shouldn’t be by now but I’m continually amazed at the sticker prices of what they put on these “high end” components. Guess there are a lot of rich people in the world with money to burn.
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Post by marcl on Apr 27, 2023 12:04:31 GMT -5
I don't disagree with your idea... but there is one thing you may not understand... The circuitry required for a DAC to have a Coax or Optical S/PDIF input is pretty simple (it's called "a S/PDIF receiver" and it's quite standardized). When you add USB you need to add another piece of circuitry (a "USB audio bridge"). And, while the internal circuitry in these is pretty complicated, they have also gotten pretty standardized. And there are very specific standards for "S/PDIF audio data" and "USB audio data". (And, once something becomes standardized, no matter how complex it is inside, someone will put it in a single chip, for a reasonable price.) However, at least for now, there is no single standard for "audio data over Ethernet". Ethernet was designed for DATA... and the additional steps of "converting your audio into data and then converting it back again at the other end" still remain. At the moment there are several different competing standards for doing this like DTS PlayFi, and DLNA, and Roon's proprietary one (as well as others like Dante). But, until and if a single standard emerges, streamers are going to remain "little computers with Ethernet ports running custom software". At the moment the closest we have to such a "lowest common denominator", in terms of a way to send audio over Ethernet, is DLNA - and I believe Roon supports it. But I don't believe that, at the moment, Roon has enough customers to justify the cost of developing a custom hardware solution like a streamer. Their main software product is Roon... And their main hardware product is basically a NUC, with Roon software installed on it, and a Roon logo on the front... They could do a "Roon streamer" the same way... but they would have to sell a lot of low cost "Roon streamers" to justify the effort and cost... And, to be quite blunt, there's not much reason why someone would buy a "Roon branded DLNA streamer", instead of just buying some other DLNA-capable client... In order to justify developing their own proprietary solution, which could offer Roon-specific advantages, they would have to expect to sell a lot of them. (I assume that people buy their computer because setting up Roon and configuring it is a bit of a nuisance... so it's easier to buy one as "a box"... but setting up a streamer is much simpler.) The economics of developing and supporting a software product are very different than the economics of designing and selling custom hardware. And, since Roon DOES work with so many other things, which is one of the nice things about it, I'm not sure how many people would actually purchase a Roon-branded streamer. (Especially if it cost significantly more than other competitive streamers.) Yes - Roon is expensive and proprietary. But it works for what I want it to do. I bought the lifetime subscription back when it was cheaper and have been satisfied. In Roon-speak, what I need is an “endpoint” that Roon will recognize and that will convert Ethernet input to an output that my DAC can use. I don’t want or need any operating-system or software “overhead” on the streamer at all - Roon covers that. And above all, I want the streamer to output a bit-perfect copy of the incoming stream, and to cost as little as possible. One would think that Roon themselves would recognize the need and offer their own streamers, but so far, they haven’t. I think it’s a market opportunity for someone… So on this topic (I believe) ... here are two scenarios ... 1 - Select a 5.0 channel DSD file in JRiver Media Center; tell JRiver to play it through the XMC-2; the file is retrieved from the Synology NAS, converted from DSD to PCM by JRiver and sent via HDMI connected to the NVidia GPU in the PC, to the HDMI input to the XMC-2. 2 - Select a 5.0 channel DSD file in JRiver Media Center; tell JRiver to play it through the OPPO-205 to the XMC-2; the file is retrieved from the Synology NAS, sent via Ethernet to the OPPO-205 which plays the file over HDMI to the input to the XMC-2. (BTW ... the file will be converted to PCM. I do not know if JRiver converts it before sending to the OPPO, or if the file goes over Ethernet as the original DSD, and then the OPPO converts it to PCM before sending it to the XMC-2). MY point is ... in addition to how one DAC may or may not sound different from another (all other things being equal ... as if THAT could happen!) .... how about all these other ways to get from point A to point B ... could the music sound any different in my scenario 1 or 2?
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Post by jdubs on Apr 28, 2023 9:16:10 GMT -5
Boom- I think when you look at our last posts on this, it shows how far apart we are:
I would accept a hardware solution if it has good (better) software; You want better hardware, as long as it runs your software (Roon)
I think this demonstrates how hard it is for a company to come out with a mass appeal product. I'm not even gonna touch your integrated ethernet switch requirement! HaHa!
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 29, 2023 16:10:54 GMT -5
Boom- I think when you look at our last posts on this, it shows how far apart we are: I would accept a hardware solution if it has good (better) software; You want better hardware, as long as it runs your software (Roon) I think this demonstrates how hard it is for a company to come out with a mass appeal product. I'm not even gonna touch your integrated ethernet switch requirement! HaHa! I'll agree. Most "streamer customers" want a software interface and only secondarily with the hardware that enables it. I have an interface, and only want the hardware that works with it. Never the two shall meet. I'm opposed to the purchase of most available streamers because the bulk of their price is for their proprietary software interfaces (that I don't need at all). When Oppo was still in business, I liked their products because they did it all - disc player, DAC, streamer, etc. etc. etc. But alas, they are no more and I find no comparable product left on the market. I'm therefore forced to improvise. I'm torn between using a laptop computer on the music stand as a Roon host and connecting to my DAC via USB directly from the laptop or else using my main computer in the computer room as the Roon host and using a streamer as an "endpoint." I have laptops to spare, so I may as well try both options... Will there be any audible difference?
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Post by LuisV on Apr 29, 2023 16:43:58 GMT -5
I'm a little confused with your comment Boom... "I have an interface, and only want the hardware that works with it. Never the two shall meet." Can you provide additional details as to the issue? Simply asking as my $40 Raspberry Pi and significantly more expensive Cambridge CXN v2 were problem free with Roon for the last couple of years. I sold my CXN v2 as I've switch the room for a home theater setup; however, my Pi still feeds my headphone setup with wonderful tunes via Roon. I have this OS loaded on my Pi: ropieee.org/
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 29, 2023 17:31:51 GMT -5
I know there are a number of “build-it-yourself” gadgets around that work fine. But for those of us who no longer want to go the DIY route, there seems to be a dearth of economical turnkey streamer solutions. I tried the ifi Zen Stream since it was advertised as both decent quality and reasonably priced. But due to a lack of clear setup and function-descriptions, the thing was a nightmare incarnate.
For the time being, my Apple TV-3 is working as my streamer (and sounding fine in that capacity). I will, however, try my two laptop computers as Roon servers and see how they do…
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Post by LuisV on Apr 29, 2023 23:04:53 GMT -5
Not sure how much you're looking to spend, but the Bluesound Node works rather well as a Roon endpoint. Cambridge recently released two new streamers, the MXN10 $499 and the AXN10 $599; both Roon ready.
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 30, 2023 2:19:56 GMT -5
And there is my main issue with streamers - considering their limited function, pricing should be SIGNIFICANTLY less than half those figures.
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Post by foggy1956 on Apr 30, 2023 6:59:26 GMT -5
And there is my main issue with streamers - considering their limited function, pricing should be SIGNIFICANT less than half those figures. This is why I mentioned the Fiio m11s, it does everything you need plus provides portability.
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 30, 2023 9:30:52 GMT -5
OK - Since I have this laying around, I'm going to try using an E-Machines 200-1152 mini-laptop running an Atom processor & 1 Gb RAM. Windoze 7 onboard. Since this isn't specific to streamers, I'm moving this part of my conversation to the "Boomzilla's Journey" thread. If interested - visit there.
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