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Post by localnet on Sept 25, 2023 5:15:28 GMT -5
These are budget subs, I used no equipment to dial them in, just my 58yo ears. I was looking for that fill that a well blended in sub can give to music, along with that enveloping soundstage they can create if done properly. My goal, an invisible sub, huge soundstage and I do not want to know that there is a subwoofer in the room. Big ask from in this price range. The SVS was $439 direct from SVS and the Emo was $269 direct from Emotiva, both with free shipping. I had both subs in house in less than 48 hours.
Music: A variety of Jazz and Blues, with a bit of Classic Rock.
The Contestants: The SVS SB1000 non Pro vs the Emotiva Airmotiv SE12
The room: 12' x 12' carpeted, wood over walls, acoustic ceiling, two windows with heavy blackout curtains a bed and a wooden cabinet.
The system: A vintage Sansui 2000 stereo receiver, WiiM mini, Zu Omen Dirty Weekend speakers, no TV. The Zu's are rated to 35Hz on the low end, and they definitely go there, if not lower in this particular room.
Hookup: Speaker cable with banana plugs, from the B speaker outputs of the Sansui. I can play both speakers A and B simultaneously to both the sub and speakers.
Performance of SB1000: I was limited in where to set the sub, basically one spot. I could not get this baby dialed in at all. I own a pair of the SB3000's so I am familiar with what these sealed subs can do. There was a huge dead spot, or null with this sub. It was either overbearing or not in the room. I tried a bit of moving around just to play with it to see... I just could not get it to perform, which really disappointed me as it is a perfect size for the room vs the Emotiva SE12. And, I am an SVS fanboy, and was very disappointed to say the least. Now, the SB1000 Pro, with the ap, the same ap that I use with my SB3000's, I think I could get this dialed in, if I could kill that null. But, spending $600 was not in the cards, this is a bedroom system and I was not going there. In all honesty, I really do not need a sub in this particular room with the Zu's in the mix, as they are hitting that 35Hz and lower, at least to my ear. I just want to squeeze out that little bit of sound. The SB1000 was not the sub for the job or the room.
Performance of SE12: Same spot, same cables, same music. WOW! This is my first experience with a passive woofer with down firing sub, and boy am I impressed. This was so easy to dial in, pretty much set the Hz at 60 and simply adjust the volume. Sure, I had to tweak a bit on the bass and treble on the Sansui and the EQ on the WiiM, but quite honestly, this was the easiest sub setup I have ever done. The SE12 easily made itself invisible, the sound enveloped the room, I had that soundstage I was looking for. It has to be the room, the way this sub can fill the room without making itself known. There is no centrality to the sound, with either the Zu's and or the SE12, you cannot say the sound is coming from this speaker or that sub. There is no hint of being boomy, it appears to be plenty fast to keep up with the music I listen to, no issue with speed or bottoming out. This is a very nice sounding sub for the money, it does what I asked it to do and it sounds pretty darn good, good enough to keep.
The Cons: It could be tighter, and it can get sloppy, but only on very demanding music, stuff I do not listen to, the Rap and Techno stuff, I did try a few tracks there. It was not sloppy bad, but some folks would get annoyed by it if that is all they listen to. And most of it I am sure could be tweaked out with a decent EQ, but I did not mess with it, as it is not the music I listen to.
Bottom line, for the money, I would not hesitate recommending this sub. Keep in mind, my room and your room, results will vary. ;-)
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 26, 2023 8:06:10 GMT -5
From what is described here (music, material and frequency response of your mains) Sounds like just leaving the subwoofer off would be the best course of action.
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Post by localnet on Sept 26, 2023 10:16:08 GMT -5
From what is described here (music, material and frequency response of your mains) Sounds like just leaving the subwoofer off would be the best course of action. Totally agree with your thinking. The sub is really not needed, but... The sub really increases that soundstage, or that feeling of being enveloped in the sound, in the room, if that makes sense. I was listening last night after a session in the living room, and that is another topic, what is going on in there. It has to be these two Sansui receivers/amps I am using. None of the modern gear I have had through here can, or could even come close to what these two 50+ year old receivers are pulling off. I have the Sansui 4000 out in the living room, playing that with the Zu DW6 Supremes, the Zu's were pressurizing the room, I pretty much shut the two SB3000 subs off. I don't know what is going on here, the bedroom system is all new to me and is a small room, but never has the living room sounded like this. I just rearranged the speakers, removed some furniture and opened up the room, last night was the first time I have listened since doing this. Crazy good sound, I have only experienced music/sound like this in a live setting. I will keep the subs, we still have movie night here. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 26, 2023 12:03:41 GMT -5
GREAT comparison! You told us about the venue, the associated equipment, and your likes/dislikes about each sub. In a different room, of course, the results might have been opposite, but you said that too.
Thanks for a well-written and informative comparison! I enjoyed reading it.
Boomzilla (aka Glenn Young)
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Post by localnet on Sept 26, 2023 18:15:45 GMT -5
GREAT comparison! You told us about the venue, the associated equipment, and your likes/dislikes about each sub. In a different room, of course, the results might have been opposite, but you said that too. Thanks for a well-written and informative comparison! I enjoyed reading it. Boomzilla (aka Glenn Young) Thank you! |
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 26, 2023 18:39:40 GMT -5
From what is described here (music, material and frequency response of your mains) Sounds like just leaving the subwoofer off would be the best course of action. Totally agree with your thinking. The sub is really not needed, but... The sub really increases that soundstage, or that feeling of being enveloped in the sound, in the room, if that makes sense. I was listening last night after a session in the living room, and that is another topic, what is going on in there. It has to be these two Sansui receivers/amps I am using. None of the modern gear I have had through here can, or could even come close to what these two 50+ year old receivers are pulling off. I have the Sansui 4000 out in the living room, playing that with the Zu DW6 Supremes, the Zu's were pressurizing the room, I pretty much shut the two SB3000 subs off. I don't know what is going on here, the bedroom system is all new to me and is a small room, but never has the living room sounded like this. I just rearranged the speakers, removed some furniture and opened up the room, last night was the first time I have listened since doing this. Crazy good sound, I have only experienced music/sound like this in a live setting. I will keep the subs, we still have movie night here. I must say that your post took me on a trip down memory lane when I first did subwoofer integration for music which was around 2001. I got into this primarily because of movies spurned on by the matrix bottoming out my main woofers, which I could not live with, of course, Once all set up and dialed in, I lost my mind, primarily with the music and revisited a good portion of my entire Music collection over the next few months. A few select recordings had Lows that I had never before I heard until then which was also very cool. |
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Post by localnet on Sept 28, 2023 6:36:10 GMT -5
Totally agree with your thinking. The sub is really not needed, but... The sub really increases that soundstage, or that feeling of being enveloped in the sound, in the room, if that makes sense. I was listening last night after a session in the living room, and that is another topic, what is going on in there. It has to be these two Sansui receivers/amps I am using. None of the modern gear I have had through here can, or could even come close to what these two 50+ year old receivers are pulling off. I have the Sansui 4000 out in the living room, playing that with the Zu DW6 Supremes, the Zu's were pressurizing the room, I pretty much shut the two SB3000 subs off. I don't know what is going on here, the bedroom system is all new to me and is a small room, but never has the living room sounded like this. I just rearranged the speakers, removed some furniture and opened up the room, last night was the first time I have listened since doing this. Crazy good sound, I have only experienced music/sound like this in a live setting. I will keep the subs, we still have movie night here. I must say that your post took me on a trip down memory lane when I first did subwoofer integration for music which was around 2001. I got into this primarily because of movies spurned on by the matrix bottoming out my main woofers, which I could not live with, of course, Once all set up and dialed in, I lost my mind, primarily with the music and revisited a good portion of my entire Music collection over the next few months. A few select recordings had Lows that I had never before I heard until then which was also very cool. Subs are just so cool! |
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Post by leonski on Oct 2, 2023 19:44:37 GMT -5
I'd start looking at who the PRIME MANUFACTURER is for all these subs. I seem to remember OUTLAW being a HSU Research sub........that sort of thing. Who makes the drivers is next up. Can you buy that driver? Making a sub enclosure is not that difficult, but looking better IS a task requiring some expertise. And the Selection of PLATE AMPS is huge.......and you can buy a monoblock and use a MINIDSP for processing.......and have near-infinite choices including FIR and IIR filters. www.advsolned.com/difference-between-iir-and-fir-filters-a-practical-design-guide/ |
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Post by leonski on Oct 9, 2023 0:48:44 GMT -5
These are budget subs, I used no equipment to dial them in, just my 58yo ears. I was looking for that fill that a well blended in sub can give to music, along with that enveloping soundstage they can create if done properly. My goal, an invisible sub, huge soundstage and I do not want to know that there is a subwoofer in the room. Big ask from in this price range. The SVS was $439 direct from SVS and the Emo was $269 direct from Emotiva, both with free shipping. I had both subs in house in less than 48 hours. Music: A variety of Jazz and Blues, with a bit of Classic Rock. The Contestants: The SVS SB1000 non Pro vs the Emotiva Airmotiv SE12 The room: 12' x 12' carpeted, wood over walls, acoustic ceiling, two windows with heavy blackout curtains a bed and a wooden cabinet. The system: A vintage Sansui 2000 stereo receiver, WiiM mini, Zu Omen Dirty Weekend speakers, no TV. The Zu's are rated to 35Hz on the low end, and they definitely go there, if not lower in this particular room. Hookup: Speaker cable with banana plugs, from the B speaker outputs of the Sansui. I can play both speakers A and B simultaneously to both the sub and speakers. Performance of SB1000: I was limited in where to set the sub, basically one spot. I could not get this baby dialed in at all. I own a pair of the SB3000's so I am familiar with what these sealed subs can do. There was a huge dead spot, or null with this sub. It was either overbearing or not in the room. I tried a bit of moving around just to play with it to see... I just could not get it to perform, which really disappointed me as it is a perfect size for the room vs the Emotiva SE12. And, I am an SVS fanboy, and was very disappointed to say the least. Now, the SB1000 Pro, with the ap, the same ap that I use with my SB3000's, I think I could get this dialed in, if I could kill that null. But, spending $600 was not in the cards, this is a bedroom system and I was not going there. In all honesty, I really do not need a sub in this particular room with the Zu's in the mix, as they are hitting that 35Hz and lower, at least to my ear. I just want to squeeze out that little bit of sound. The SB1000 was not the sub for the job or the room. Performance of SE12: Same spot, same cables, same music. WOW! This is my first experience with a passive woofer with down firing sub, and boy am I impressed. This was so easy to dial in, pretty much set the Hz at 60 and simply adjust the volume. Sure, I had to tweak a bit on the bass and treble on the Sansui and the EQ on the WiiM, but quite honestly, this was the easiest sub setup I have ever done. The SE12 easily made itself invisible, the sound enveloped the room, I had that soundstage I was looking for. It has to be the room, the way this sub can fill the room without making itself known. There is no centrality to the sound, with either the Zu's and or the SE12, you cannot say the sound is coming from this speaker or that sub. There is no hint of being boomy, it appears to be plenty fast to keep up with the music I listen to, no issue with speed or bottoming out. This is a very nice sounding sub for the money, it does what I asked it to do and it sounds pretty darn good, good enough to keep. The Cons: It could be tighter, and it can get sloppy, but only on very demanding music, stuff I do not listen to, the Rap and Techno stuff, I did try a few tracks there. It was not sloppy bad, but some folks would get annoyed by it if that is all they listen to. And most of it I am sure could be tweaked out with a decent EQ, but I did not mess with it, as it is not the music I listen to. Bottom line, for the money, I would not hesitate recommending this sub. Keep in mind, my room and your room, results will vary. ;-) A 12x12 room? Really? You'd have to work to find a worse room....especially if it had an 8 foot ceiling..... That would be about 1152 cubic feet. TINY.....and ill-shaped for bass. And being limited to ONE spot for a given sub? Even in my 4000 cubic foot room, I was tried my sub in a given spot and it was awful. My den....was like being in a one-note drum. Coudn't hear myself think. Moveing the sub 12 or 14 feet to behind the right speaker make a new system of it......Clear, MUSICAL bass. And movie effects kill. My panels? I low cut them at maybe 45hz or 50hz.......12db / octave...... |
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Post by localnet on Oct 10, 2023 15:16:38 GMT -5
Crazy!
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Post by leonski on Oct 10, 2023 18:40:32 GMT -5
Ya know the crazy part Local? My older brother...had a Sansui Receiver of a similar vintage.....but had purchased when he was in the service overseas.... He ALSO had Wharfedale W70e, a large speaker which he used as an end table. This may be what started me down 'the road' of hifi...... These were fairly high sensitivity speakers which were good at turning the available SS power of the time into good, clean sound..... And not that it matters, but he ALSO had a Benjamin Miracord turntable......Very nice for the time..... And if you killed that 'null' by turning it up....you'd be 'peaked' elsewhere. That null is a function of the geometry of the room and sub placement....Guaranteed. SQUARE rooms are almost always problematic and add a celing height of some even multiple? (even 2/3, in this case) and you can have very difficult standing waves...... When I say my den was like being in a one-note drum? Horrible blaring bass......The room was acting as a Helmholtz Resonator......But I was able to fix by moving the sub..... I've always wanted to HEAR a set of the Zu.......Where can I go to actually sit and listen? www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htmENTER your room dimensions and have a look at the output.....you maybe surprised in a good OR bad way! |
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Post by localnet on Nov 4, 2023 5:26:01 GMT -5
Ya know the crazy part Local? My older brother...had a Sansui Receiver of a similar vintage.....but had purchased when he was in the service overseas.... He ALSO had Wharfedale W70e, a large speaker which he used as an end table. This may be what started me down 'the road' of hifi...... These were fairly high sensitivity speakers which were good at turning the available SS power of the time into good, clean sound..... And not that it matters, but he ALSO had a Benjamin Miracord turntable......Very nice for the time..... And if you killed that 'null' by turning it up....you'd be 'peaked' elsewhere. That null is a function of the geometry of the room and sub placement....Guaranteed. SQUARE rooms are almost always problematic and add a celing height of some even multiple? (even 2/3, in this case) and you can have very difficult standing waves...... When I say my den was like being in a one-note drum? Horrible blaring bass......The room was acting as a Helmholtz Resonator......But I was able to fix by moving the sub..... I've always wanted to HEAR a set of the Zu.......Where can I go to actually sit and listen? www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htmENTER your room dimensions and have a look at the output.....you maybe surprised in a good OR bad way! Thank you for the link! The addition of the sub was a nice improvement. As far as the sound being affected elsewhere, I really have not noticed. But, I am not a "serious" critical listener. These Zu speakers simply changed my entire outlook on audio, and then the addition of the Sansui 2000 and 4000 receivers took everything to the next level. The icing on the cake, and don't laugh, was the addition of the WiiM Pro streamer with its incredible EQ section to really dial in the sound like no other streamer I have owned. Now, music is simply FUN! I no longer sit here and wonder about what I am missing, or scouring the internet for the next greatest gadget or piece of audio gear. I do use an external DAC with the WiiM Pro, an older PS Audio DAC/Preamp that works seamlessly with the Sansui 4000 in my living room. But, back to the Zu's, I hated them at first, they sounded like crap on my modern gear. I saw a YT video on pairing the Zu's with a vintage amp/receiver, mainly the Sansui brand. I found my first Sansui locally, the 2000 for $200. Then I stumbled upon a one owner Sansui 4000 for another $200, I am listening to it right now, Willie Nelson, Teatro, what a great album. The Sansui units make the Zu's shine. Many folks use tube amps with them, maybe one day I will give one a try, but the Sansui units already have a very tube like sound to them with the Zu's. I tried my KLH Model 5's with the 4000, and they could not do what the Zu's could do, the Zu's are in another league. If you ever get a chance to hear the Zu's, do it. There is a Zu forum over at FB, maybe someone is on there in your local area that would let you hear them. They simply sound amazing, and I have no desire to look at replacing them any time soon. I could easily sell my Omens, but cannot part with them, they are that good. |
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Post by leonski on Nov 4, 2023 15:38:04 GMT -5
www.tonepublications.com/old-school/sansui-au-717-integrated-amplifier/Decades ago, i wanted one of the Sansui integrated amps very badly....... For me? Receivers are not needed any more. FM is pretty much history. When we go out in the car? Wife plugs in phone to Spotify..... I've tried but can't find the Zu to listen to around here........the SanDiego audio folks have NOT met since the big 'outbreak'......and no longer sponser a room at the show up the road in Newport Beach...... I'm thinking KLIPSCH.....the Forte IV model has some real improvements over the III and gets good reviews. I've HEARD 'em up at a local storefront.....only 10 miles from here....and the ARE that good. One day I need to bring my AMP up to the store just to 'make sure'..... KLIPSH will even make it in nearly ANY veneer you wish for. Quarter sawn oak? Maple? Exotics like any one of half a dozen Mahogany or Cedars? (Even Yellow Cedar).
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Post by ttocs on Nov 4, 2023 17:10:17 GMT -5
I still have mine. Bought it and a pair of JBL L-110 speakers in 1979. Used them for 32 years! |
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Post by leonski on Nov 4, 2023 17:44:34 GMT -5
BTW? my MOM had only one kidney. She had one of her OEM kidneys removed when she was fairly young......in her 20s or earlier.....due to it being 'defective' in some manner.
JBL has started making the L100 again......But I think I'll take the 'IV' revision of the KLIPSCH Forte or perhaps (If I were wealthy!) Cornwall....
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