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Post by leonski on Oct 18, 2023 19:52:14 GMT -5
Amps.....like most other machines.....have a sweet spot. www.stereophile.com/content/naim-classic-200-series-nap-250-power-amplifier-measurementsLink is to a Stereophile review of a NAIM amplifier. Look at the measurement panel and see the distortion drops to a minima at 5 watts....... That's the sweet spot, IMO......It is rated at 100watts @8ohms......a FINE place for many users. www.stereophile.com/content/electrocompaniet-aw-800-m-stereomonoblock-power-amplifier-measurementsThis link is to an 800 Watt amp......and it reaches 'best' distorion at maybe 200 watts....very high. I know this is a REAL 'edgy' conclusion on my part, but given the cost difference EVEN with EMO amps, I'd go for the amount of power NEEDED rather than the amount of power desired...... I look at the current crop of VERY high power electric autos....(EVs.....) and cringe at the ultimate waste. Over 1000hp and enough battery to power your house for a week.....I've seen a few of 'em going near 4-TONS. Has anybody figured out how to RECYCLE LiOn batteries yet? Yes......headroom to Spare! Now? How much power are you REALLY using? 90db speakers will hit a pretty loud 96db at 4 watts....FOUR.......Add more power for distance to listener. Subtract for 2 speakers. Subtract again for Room Gain.......(out doors you're NOT!) So clearly, Some very low value is PLENTY. Multiply by 10 (TEN) for an additional 10db of headroom......So 10 watts turns into 100 (again, per speaker) with a base of 96db at the speaker. 106db might be near the limit for many speakers OVER TIME. The calculations BOGGLE me, but I'm pretty sure my conclusion is not far from accurate..... You are 100% about heat from tube amps. But SS is 'not immune'.... As a matter of fact? With an A/B output (most common) running maybe 30% or 40% (lower at lower outputs?) TIMES the speaker Efficiency of maybe 2% or so? Factor in Power supply 'efficiency' and it is clear that the whole chain from WALL to SPEAKER is mostly heat. And copper (and all other conductors) have an interesting property. As they WARM due to resistive heating? The resistanc RISES.......Not a lot, but a meaningful amount nonetheless..... My MAGNEPAN were tested by Stereophile in 1999. They got less than 84db sensitivity! And I'm into 'em for 200x2 (4ohm power) Per Speaker......I have a pair of Parasound A23.....And since they used 2.83 volts.....on a 4 ohm speaker? That is 2 watts, not 1. So the 1 watt sensitivity is even LOWER than what stereophile said.....by 3db......NO WONDER panels have a Power Hungry reputation! Just another reason for me to check out the KLIPSCH.....Stereophile got a measure of 96db or so......lower than Klipsh rating.
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turner
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Post by turner on Oct 18, 2023 21:17:28 GMT -5
I've read measurements before and while it's good data, it could still be outside human perception. You have to be careful to not chase the dragon on perfection. If you want a class A amp to go with Klipsch, go for it, but at some point, you listen to hardware, and not music. It's a dangerous path. Not saying a true class A amp can't be better, but at what point can you truly tell the difference? Just food for thought. I still think a clean amp, best mastered source, and low distortion speakers (with proper setup) make the most difference.
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Post by leonski on Oct 18, 2023 22:36:32 GMT -5
Not a dragon chaser. But am insanely Practical.....person. Owned a Honda S-2000 for years. And only pushed it once or twice. And found it was dangerous in the RAIN......
Just buy what I need......Believe me, If I were wealthy? 20 or 30 series Magnepan. Extensive room treatments, like diffusion in back of 'em....an electrical panel JUST for the audio.
House now is a 100 amp service. Double that up to start. And install a large PV system and enough battery to get me thru several days.....THAN TELL SDGE to go Pound Sand.....
Lots of people around here obsess about 'specs' without knowing much about them or how they interact.
All you say makes a difference DOES. But in my Garage, it'd still sound like crap. A portion of any budget should be devoted to some form of getting the room in order. I find it
a real head-shaker when somebody says they have a 12'x14' room with a 9 foot ceiling and want a 9.2 Atmos system with height, width, depth and Subliminal speakers. And a
pair of SUBS you could live in. Which only fit ONE place.
Most of those guys would be better spending the speaker budget on a GOOD PAIR of whatever and a decent sub.......and install first reflection point absorption. The FIRST THING
I did in my current room? On the far side.....call it about 20 feet away? I hung a fairly dense woolen tapestry. I went to the upholstery shop and had a CANVAS backing put on it and
sewn in pockets top and bottom. Bottom gets a 1" or larger dowel rod.....about 1" shorter than the panel is wide. On TOP? A rod goes thru and to 1 1/2" standoffs ......so the piece is
hung away from the wall....so sound goes thru it TWICE and totally killed the Very Annoying Echo......And it hangs FLAT without curl or flopping about.
You know? Perception IS an issue. And varies as to frequency. Very LF distortion is not as bad as distortion a fraction the magnitude....but at 8Khz.....
People expect DIRAC and other software to 'fix' the room.......but at what expense? A fundamentally good room needs less messing with....
In the mood for an INEXPENSIVE experiment? Good.....I was hoping you'd say YES! Buy yourself a Kill-A-Watt plug-in meter. It will read Volts. Amps. Watts / VA . Hz / Power Factor (PF) or Kwh / Hours...... This is good information. Watts / VA? Are not the same thing, being related by POWER FACTOR a measure of how displaced the voltage and current peaks are in our AC waveform..... I don't remember the EXACT numbers....but my 4' fluorescent tube near my desk is one value of WATTS and another of VA......Indicating a reactive load. A pure resistive load will be the Same VA as Watts.
Plug you amp into this and just watch for a while......See just how much power you use over time......Do the math. Since amp / PS efficiency is fairly low......and the speaker is no more than maybe 3% or so? You'll get the idea just how MUCH power gets to your ears and the rest being heat. Shocking......
And not that it matters? But my Parasound has the first couple watts in 'A' . Never been able tell when it was no longer in that mode.......which is kind of a sliding scale, anyway.....not a cliff.
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Post by leonski on Oct 19, 2023 2:38:17 GMT -5
Turner, I hope you don't think I'm giving you a hard time. I just approach things from a slightly different diretion.
Sure....Speakers are very important. But I don't know they are '#1' or not. Certainly a bunch of issues instrude... In no particular order:: Room? Goals? Funds/Budget? Ability to change things around......? Spousal Acceptance Factor? (SAF) You have limits if you RENT. If you have an existing house? Other problems. Clean Sheet start? Load the Money Gun! I'd try to think in a 5 year to 8 year time frame.......or longer, depending on WHERE......
If I were given some Obscene amount of money....or maybe Just Profane? Tear out a wall and build a dedicated room addition to certain dimensions and increase electrical service. DIY some minimal room treatments. THAN worry about upgrade to electronics / speakers. Though I don't know if I'd dump my preamp or not.....
May even buy a POPCORN MACHINE for 'movie nite'.......Who knows? OH! I'm very happy with my OLED TV......But would be willing to consider a larger one IF the room were properly sized..... I think I just broke the bank!
Right now? I have a pair of FOUND Radio Shack Minimus7 speakers. Like a 4" 2-way in a die cast aluminum enclosure. I think they came out LATE 70s and went on for at least a decade. The perfect DORM speaker and can be found in many garages to this day. They'll surprise you!
I had my original Maggies in a roughly 10x10 room with a fireplace. NO PLACE or WAY to really alter setup. But I did learn ONE thing. When I set it up as I was used to? A very odd 'image' in the upper left corner of the room......I checked phase (ok) and that speakers were properly placed.....Left and Right was marked ON the speakers.....I swapped the speaker L/R and fixed it.....still don't know WHY..... Other than that ONE time, I was always able to accomodate those panels and make em sound good......I even set them up once about 2 feet apart FACING one another and used 'em as headphones. Absolutely stunning sound at 0400 with everyone asleep......
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vega
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Post by vega on Oct 19, 2023 6:49:22 GMT -5
I have CerwinVega! Speakers that are quite efficient, and yes they will play loud with not allot of power. But by bringing in more power or higher quality power they sound much better, even at lower volumes. Not sure what this is but it can be a thing with efficient speakers.
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turner
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Post by turner on Oct 19, 2023 7:48:39 GMT -5
Turner, I hope you don't think I'm giving you a hard time. I just approach things from a slightly different diretion. Sure....Speakers are very important. But I don't know they are '#1' or not. Certainly a bunch of issues instrude... In no particular order:: Room? Goals? Funds/Budget? Ability to change things around......? Spousal Acceptance Factor? (SAF) You have limits if you RENT. If you have an existing house? Other problems. Clean Sheet start? Load the Money Gun! I'd try to think in a 5 year to 8 year time frame.......or longer, depending on WHERE...... If I were given some Obscene amount of money....or maybe Just Profane? Tear out a wall and build a dedicated room addition to certain dimensions and increase electrical service. DIY some minimal room treatments. THAN worry about upgrade to electronics / speakers. Though I don't know if I'd dump my preamp or not..... May even buy a POPCORN MACHINE for 'movie nite'.......Who knows? OH! I'm very happy with my OLED TV......But would be willing to consider a larger one IF the room were properly sized..... I think I just broke the bank! Right now? I have a pair of FOUND Radio Shack Minimus7 speakers. Like a 4" 2-way in a die cast aluminum enclosure. I think they came out LATE 70s and went on for at least a decade. The perfect DORM speaker and can be found in many garages to this day. They'll surprise you! I had my original Maggies in a roughly 10x10 room with a fireplace. NO PLACE or WAY to really alter setup. But I did learn ONE thing. When I set it up as I was used to? A very odd 'image' in the upper left corner of the room......I checked phase (ok) and that speakers were properly placed.....Left and Right was marked ON the speakers.....I swapped the speaker L/R and fixed it.....still don't know WHY..... Other than that ONE time, I was always able to accomodate those panels and make em sound good......I even set them up once about 2 feet apart FACING one another and used 'em as headphones. Absolutely stunning sound at 0400 with everyone asleep...... I don't think you are giving me a hard time. Speakers are usually considered the most important because they can introduce the most distortion. By a large margin, depending on what they are. Now days, it seems like nice clean speakers are easy to come by. I haven't heard them all, but from reviews, I know EMO, SVS, CSS and many others can make really good sounding speakers. It's cool you had a S2000. I hope you were able to sell it at it's modern peak price. The AP1s were known to bite near the edge. Not sure what year you had, but the AP2s were a bit safer on the suspension tuning. I I'm mostly a frugal person and it got to the point, I was feeling a little guilty about how much I was spending on audio gear even thought I could afford all of it. It took awhile to figure out, that it has a personal intrinsic vale that is outside the realm of money. So, if I had tons of money, I probably wouldn't change much. Invest more, buy more gold and silver, maybe pay to get my car detailed so my hands wouldn't get so sore. As long as you know why you are wanting to buy different gear and speakers, it's all good. Even if you didn't, it's a free country. People spend absurd amounts of money on the industry. For me, modern amps sound so much cleaner than the past. Granted I didn't have access to more expensive gear in the 90s and 2000s to compare. I got a bit carried away and ended up with what I would consider to be overkill for a bedroom system. A Yamaha R-N303 and Dali Spector 6 speakers. I was able to get the speakers open box for $499 and the Yamaha for under $300 before Covid, shortages and inflation. I thought about selling the gear at a profit and downsizing, but every time I listen to system, it just sounds too good to give up. It reminds me of some of the good hifi stuff I heard in the past, only lower distortion and more revealing. Most people would likely be more than happy to have it as a main system. I would dare to say it is almost knocking at the door at my reference system. The main difference, even lower distortion, but my main system just sounds way more powerful and can fill a room better.
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Post by leonski on Oct 19, 2023 17:16:21 GMT -5
Want a surprise? the combination of my '70s Kenwood KA-7100 and those equally ancient Radio Shack speakers is FINE for many purposes. My garage stereo? 'Found' speakers of unknown quality (OK, for garage) and one of those 35$ amps from Parts Express......I used some wall mounts to get the speakers UP and away..... For a brief while, the Kenwood, used ONLY as an amp (a little bit of rewire inside) drove my original MG-1 panels......I think the Kenwood is 80x2 at 4ohms.....It worked fine....
I guess I'm going to disagree with 'conventional' wisdom. I'll agree that speakers IN GENERAL are much improved over time. I owned some real CRAP but also owned some JBL Copies from a SoCal boutique company.....RSL. The 3600 Studio Monitor was a 12" 3-way and a very good copy of the JBL 4311 / L100 types. And even found its way into a few Recording Studios down here......where at one point, you could find 'em every 10 blocks.....Even my brother owned a very nice one......Another time for THAT story...... But I will try to NOT choose a 'single thing' to be key. SOME thought must be given the space into which you intend to setup and listen.... It is a SYSTEM, after all. Kilowatt Mono amps MIGHT work with 106db Big Box speakers......but IMO is a wasteful excess. Some of those speaker owners swear by a 300b tube in a SET of maybe 7 or 8 watts per side........ Get equipment that works together for your end.
Don't believe many or even all reviews. Stereophile made some remarks about the Forte IV and the improvements over the III. Yet another reviewer, who published a bunch of measured data, has some OTHER isssues........ It's tough to determine what sense I'd make of all this......so I won't try....but WOULD like to go listen.....The Distressed Oak version is beautiful for me and would look good in my room.......My panels looke like something out of 2001..... My key is to know somethng about the REVIEWER. Got 45 minutes to noodle this? Look thru the half dozen or so reviews of the Forte IV......
My S-2000 was I think the AP1 version. It had the2.0 / and the glass rear window....It also has 16" wheels....NOT the 17s of later models. Rear tires wore so fast I bought stock in GoodYear.....
If you ever can spend a weekend? go to one of those big audio shows. In a hotel somewhere on 6 floors every other room......I heard stuff that made me want to PUKE and later had to 'get tickets' to listen to the Magnepan room. So many I can't remember all the names. Vinyl based rooms. Reel-to-reel. Computer / server style. I came away, one year, impresssed with AudioEngine......certainly not $$$. While I heard some speakers with Field Coils. NOT permanent magnets.....an Electro Magnet 'field coil'. Heard Linkwitz Open Baffle. I wanted a Magtech amp for a while......and those Sound Labs speakers......(stats). Have fun and stop for lunch or you'll pass out mid-afternoon....
I was on the crew of a room.....so I had free pass to the show. I sat my time and got sodas for people and spoke with several. Even some YOUNG persons dropped in and the young lady KNEW what she liked and named-names.
And OH! 300$ to 600$ is an INCREDIBLY competitive space for speakers. You name the name and they make something to fit. Even the Magnepan MMG is in the hunt and popular.
Maybe one day I'll go over a recent change I made. But I WILL SAY to get a family trust and keep it up to date. Even if you are in your 30s.....sh** happens and here in California, probate costs a Bundle.....COVID made me take stock.....
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turner
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Post by turner on Oct 20, 2023 8:04:11 GMT -5
It's easy for reviewers to bash a product and try and find weaknesses. When it comes to the Forte IVs, they don't have bracing, but no one complains about hearing resonance. I see some of the DIY builds and some of it looks like more material is on the inside of the box bracing it to death, it seems to be overkill. I built two very large subs for the HT and I did brace the box, but not to the level I see on other builds.
The Forte IVs have upgraded lower distortion drivers and upgraded crossovers and I really want to hear them.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 20, 2023 9:35:13 GMT -5
There are a lot of things you can do, especially with tube gear, that are theoretically improvements... (Although it is often disputed whether they matter or not.) Yes you could use a separate switch for the heaters and the power supply... However a more elegant solution is to use a two-stop rotary switch... That way you are forced to turn on the heaters before the high voltage. And a single click the other way turns the high voltage off but leaves the heaters on. (The catch is that this requires a somewhat special rotary switch...) (This was something that you used to see on radio gear...) If you want it to be automatic you can simply use a relay and some sort of time delay circuit. (That way is more reliable and consistent than a thermistor... and you can change the delay it's set for.) And, if you want to be REALLY fancy... Turn the power on to the heaters... Then a delay... Then turn on the high voltage supply... but charge the high voltage filter capacitors through a limiting resistor... Then turn on a relay that bypasses the "slow charge resistor"... (modern amps sometimes do this with some sort of "PTC inrush limiter".) THEN connect the high voltage to the tube plates... Running the heaters all the time is a mixed blessing... With some tubes the heaters have an actual service life... so they actually determine how long the tube lasts. And, with some, the heaters last a long time, but temperature cycling can be the issue... (So you're trading off between temperature cycling and just plain wearing out over time.) Another thing to note is that, while many output tubes are direct heated, or have the cathode connected to the heater, most small tubes do not. (With tube amps that use direct-heated tubes the heaters on the rectifier tube, and maybe the output tubes, are almost always run from a "filament winding" that is connected to the high-voltage winding.) This means that, on the preamp and driver tubes, you can use a separate DC supply, or a REGULATED DC supply, to light the filaments. This will do a lot to reduce hum... especially on small signal tubes like in preamps and especially phono preamps. Also NOTE that many tubes also have a maximum "heater to cathode voltage". In most simple tube circuits, and with most output tubes, the cathode and grid both sit pretty near ground. However, in phase splitters, and in cathode followers, both common in preamps and driver circuits, the cathode may be several hundred volts above ground. And, in that situation, you need to be careful not to exceed that heater to cathode voltage limit. (You may need to bias the filament or heater up a few hundred volts to keep it nearer the voltage of the cathode.) Well, Keith, NOW you've done it. got me THINKING. First thing that popped up? Sure....have 2 switches....one for heaters...and the other for the HV.....Need to interrupt that one before the transformer so you dont' have a switch with 500vac on it! But what I remember from the days of the 4 or 5 tube 'table radio' was why NOT just put a diode in there somewhere and run the heaters ALL the time?....than go to full power when you switch on? Wouldn't surprise me if you could use a thermister in the rectifier to get enough time delay to satisfy the tubes.... And It'd be a surprise if you actually didn't IMPROVE tube life by having them 'sort of' warm all the time......no more cycling of temps......
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 20, 2023 9:47:41 GMT -5
I like that term "chasing the dragon" (although it also has other meanings in drug lingo). Yes, different types of amplifiers have not only different amounts of distortion, but different distortion profiles. However, most of the time, a loudspeaker is going to have FAR more distortion than an amplifier (and, sorry guys, so do vinyl, phono cartridges, and analog tape). There are two reasons why nobody rates the distortion on loudspeakers... The first reason is that microphones also produce a lot of distortion (and there is no practical way to measure the distortion on a speaker "directly".) And the second reason is that the distortion on loudspeakers, even "really good low distortion loudspeakers", is really high compared to the typical distortion in electronics. (And it tends to rise dramatically at high levels, and at low frequencies, which happens to luckily coincide with where our hearing is less sensitive to it.) Pretty much all speakers produce distortion at levels that are probably at least somewhat audible... That's why speakers are so important and make so much difference... (And microphones are equally important... but, with those, you're stuck with what the recording engineer chose.) I've read measurements before and while it's good data, it could still be outside human perception. You have to be careful to not chase the dragon on perfection. If you want a class A amp to go with Klipsch, go for it, but at some point, you listen to hardware, and not music. It's a dangerous path. Not saying a true class A amp can't be better, but at what point can you truly tell the difference? Just food for thought. I still think a clean amp, best mastered source, and low distortion speakers (with proper setup) make the most difference.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 20, 2023 10:07:07 GMT -5
In football we call this "arm-chair quarterbacking"... So in circuit design it's "arm-chair engineering"... And, when designing a product to manufacture, there's always going to be a trade-off between "best practices" and "common sense". It's also easy to "nickel-dime a design" (that's where, after upgrading every single part, you suddenly realize that now the whole thing costs ten times as much as you'd planned.) The same is usually true with DIY... but people who DIY often choose to ignore common sense in one specific area that they're overly focused on. (You may think it's fun to spend a week hand sanding those cabinets... but you wouldn't want to pay someone $25 an hour to do it for you.) Here's a cool example... How would you like to know one of the best material to build a sub cabinet out of? It's really dense, really inert, easily formed, readily accepts a wide variety of surface finishes, and doesn't even cost much... It's also water resistant, cannot rot or mildew, and even has near-foolproof anti-theft protection built right in... And you can pick it up at almost any local hardware store (you may even have some in your garage right now). It's called CONCRETE. I saw a great DIY project for a sub... It started by taking a 30 gallon garbage can and coating the inside with two inches of concrete... And I'm sure it worked very well... But, at least for some of us, there may be "a few deal breakers" in there too... It's easy for reviewers to bash a product and try and find weaknesses. When it comes to the Forte IVs, they don't have bracing, but no one complains about hearing resonance. I see some of the DIY builds and some of it looks like more material is on the inside of the box bracing it to death, it seems to be overkill. I built two very large subs for the HT and I did brace the box, but not to the level I see on other builds. The Forte IVs have upgraded lower distortion drivers and upgraded crossovers and I really want to hear them.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 20, 2023 10:14:53 GMT -5
The most interesting thing is that none of these reviewers ever seems to put their vast knowledge and experience to work... and actually design and market a product. In all fairness to DIY speaker designers... Lacking fancy software to calculate things like "the optimum placement and amount of bracing needed"... Or the desire and wherewithal to experiment with multiple different cabinet designs... Sometimes a bit of overkill really is a sensible compromise. In most cases, and with speakers specifically, too much bracing is usually better than not enough. However, when it comes to amplifiers, and even more complex digital electronics, the choices are often far less obvious... It's easy for reviewers to bash a product and try and find weaknesses. When it comes to the Forte IVs, they don't have bracing, but no one complains about hearing resonance. I see some of the DIY builds and some of it looks like more material is on the inside of the box bracing it to death, it seems to be overkill. I built two very large subs for the HT and I did brace the box, but not to the level I see on other builds. The Forte IVs have upgraded lower distortion drivers and upgraded crossovers and I really want to hear them.
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turner
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Post by turner on Oct 20, 2023 11:05:46 GMT -5
The most interesting thing is that none of these reviewers ever seems to put their vast knowledge and experience to work... and actually design and market a product. In all fairness to DIY speaker designers... Lacking fancy software to calculate things like "the optimum placement and amount of bracing needed"... Or the desire and wherewithal to experiment with multiple different cabinet designs... Sometimes a bit of overkill really is a sensible compromise. In most cases, and with speakers specifically, too much bracing is usually better than not enough. However, when it comes to amplifiers, and even more complex digital electronics, the choices are often far less obvious... It's easy for reviewers to bash a product and try and find weaknesses. When it comes to the Forte IVs, they don't have bracing, but no one complains about hearing resonance. I see some of the DIY builds and some of it looks like more material is on the inside of the box bracing it to death, it seems to be overkill. I built two very large subs for the HT and I did brace the box, but not to the level I see on other builds. The Forte IVs have upgraded lower distortion drivers and upgraded crossovers and I really want to hear them. Most DIYers use MDF as well. When it comes to Klipsch, they could be using a proprietary heavy density board that only they have access too. Whatever they are doing, they've figured out a way to make an open box where I've never heard anyone complain about box resonance. I'd agree that a little too much bracing is better than not enough, but I still shake my head at some of the stuff Iv'e seen. Only sensible overkill builds would be the heavy xmas high powered sub builds, but why add 10lbs of bracing to a normal woofer box?
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Post by leonski on Oct 20, 2023 17:15:49 GMT -5
And keith?? When it comes to speakers? All those 'ways' and associated crossovers create problems of their own.....And multi-driver arrays make it worse.... All those waves bouncing around? Inteferring with one another? Phase IN? Phase OUT? That's one reason the original Large Advent was a gem......a well done 2-way design was better than less-well executed 3 or more 'way' designs.....
Even my Panels have an edge in one area. The large surface ensures an 'even' launch of the sound wave.....So it all gets to YOU at about the same time....
Maybe I wasn't clear. For the tube heater circuit? run the heater full-time using a diode for 'half wave'......Switch the diode OUT for normal operation....
Special MDF? Just find a REAL wood supply house. I bought a 4x8 sheet of 1" which one person could hardly carry. It is so dense you can't stick your fingernail in an edge. And it floats EVEN with the surfact of the water......It's not made of 'chips' or whatever, but what seems to be SAWDUST......It is VERY dense, heavy and inert.
Other good box building materials out there. Sure, concrete.....but get the dimensions RIGHT or you've got problems. Corian (counter top synthetic) and Magico uses machined aluminum. I've been noodling a design using......well.....I won't talk about it now, but I start with VOID FREE plywood.......More to come......But will say.....'Laminating is your friend'....
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turner
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Post by turner on Oct 20, 2023 19:03:07 GMT -5
I feel like this has gotten off topic. Back to the BassX series amps. Likely suitable for many reasons. To the point of diminished returns. Going to a higher level with better speakers and gear might be the right choice for some, the down side is, it can start to show the imperfections in source material or gear. One needs to choose what they want and have a planed goal. Straying from original goals can be an endless loop of chaining gear and speakers and never being happy.
If I critique my own system, I'm happy with the mains, but the single sub feels like a weak spot. Instead of changing mains, I should probably build a pair of proper subs instead of just one. At some point, you just gotta stop and listen and enjoy the music.
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Post by leonski on Oct 20, 2023 22:00:13 GMT -5
You hit the nail on the MOVING head with 'diminishing returns'....Guy 'A' drinks Bud. Guy 'B' drinks nothing but 200$ a bottle single malt Scotch......
For a college student living in a dorm? Not much $$$ and maybe even using iPod or Laptop as a source.... Dorm room might be 800 to 1000 cubic feet.....
But the guy making Big Bucks? Might go to the other end of hte spectrum where his feels his value propostion lies. With everything that implies.
I'm lucky my room is very asymmetric. A single sub gives good coverage overall... As it turnss out?
I don't think I've got the room for a pair of subs without going thru some REAL gymnastics.....
I am jealous of the person who can afford a 'clean sheet' system....
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turner
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Post by turner on Oct 21, 2023 6:38:03 GMT -5
I am jealous of the person who can afford a 'clean sheet' system.... Headphones are a much cheaper way to get into the clean sheet playback and that is what most younger people do now days. I personally don't like wearing even comfortable headphones too long, and I prefer music in a room.
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Post by leonski on Oct 21, 2023 13:23:43 GMT -5
My Sweet spot for headphones are the 100$ Grado open air type...... Fully covered make my EARS hot.....and I don't like earbuds at all.....They are also uncomfortable. TV late at night OR if I want to play a game.
By clean sheet? My Dream is having an acre Plus somewhere and be able to build what I want. Sure, a couple normal bedrooms and I'd like a library just a little larger than I have now.... But most important? A specialty constructed listening / video room with many exclusive features.
For example? The door to this room needs to be a full-width EXTERIOR door. Not hollow core interior....
Many other aspects of design and execution will build in Good from the start without having to mess a lot with it later.....
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turner
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Post by turner on Oct 21, 2023 14:06:51 GMT -5
I've seen projects where people fill hollow doors with sand and use weather stripping to seal a door, but those are from people who like boosted bass and want to pressurize a room, I like balanced bass myself. I posted as generic on another forum, but here is my HT subs. techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/speaker-project-gallery/1276622-subwoofer-project-dual-15-eminatorA 20hz tone can shake the room, but not much below that. I'm fine with that. They acceded my expectations by a lot. Not just with output, but they sounded cleaner than expected. Maybe not audiophile grade, but very clean HiFi for sure, and they have a PA presence to them. I've changed to Klipsch speakers to match the efficiency of the subs to create a mini HT experience. I prefer it over going to the theater because I can control the volume. My local theater has JBL cinema speakers and the PA compression drivers can cause pain in my ears in some of the louder parts of movies. I really don't like ear rape. Diana Krall Turn up the Quiet cello is way more resolving than the price of the drivers have a right to do. I want to build a pair of subs using Eminence Lab 12C for my main system. Years of research suggest they are the most musical subs. *Edit... I got the drivers on clearance. Maybe 60% off. I spent WAY more on material to finish them. A failed line by Eminence, likely due to lack of knowledge and marketing.
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Post by leonski on Oct 21, 2023 17:18:29 GMT -5
When my brother was taking classes in 'how to engineer for recordings'......my dad went up to Los Angeles and conned his way into a couple studios and got the FULL tour. Stuff like NON-parallel walls. Even a sawtoothed ceiling. When he built a studio space? LEAD SHEET on the door. 2 panes of glass between control room and studio. ONE piece, on the studio side, was 'tilted' maybe 15 degrees. I think it was the INNER piece set in foam...... Walls had differential construction from top to bottom....And the baby grand sat ON a bit of hard floor......You could stand back-to-back with another person and not be able to localize their voice. Many other features, many of which I would NOT apply to a home listening area. I would do some other stuff. Double studs.....2x4 but not 'together'..... Construct as 2 back to back walls......overlap a few inchec and NOT touching. Between studs weave sound deadening material. Use double sheetrock on 2 of 4 walls in the room ALL glass must be minimum double glazed. Do NOT build as a rectangle......Room should Taper a little. Even the ceiling should not be the same height from end to end.....and maybe 'peaked' in the middle? Prewire for speakers. Prewire for multiple 20-amp circuits.
In the space which the 12c is in? MANY subs around there. Some also seem well regarded. ME? I'd look at the TS parameters to decide on best alignment / sealed / ported for any given sub. Several good design programs available and the rest is up to YOU!
I wish I could remember, but some RATIO of 2 of the TS parameters give a good indicator of best use........I may be forced to look into that....but its been a while!
My HSU Reserach VTF2 will produce the 16hz tone in Saint Saens Organ Symphony #3.........It is AWESOME. But not at high level....Too much too ask!
Here in San Diego we have what may be the LAST outdoor municipal Pipe Organ left working and being played ON THE PLANET. If you ever come to SD, let me know and I'll get us there for the recital. It is every SUNDAY at 1pm or 2pm and a TOUR is offered after so you can see the interior of the instrument. Best in winter IF you can arrange for cool / damp. Hot dry in summer doesn't sound as good....
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