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Post by steveco on Feb 24, 2024 18:59:32 GMT -5
Yes, this is another request for Atmos speaker advice. I'm planning on a 5.1.4 config., and could really use some advice here. Attached is a pdf of the room layout. It's not a dedicated theater room. It's a living room that's open to the kitchen and other areas of the house, so there are some restrictions. Note that ceiling is 10', and I have access (so no issue with wiring). Thoughts on height and surround speakers are in red. I was planning on getting the new Xc2 and Xt2s (fi they ever become available) for the front. And I'd go for an all-Emotiva setup if I found something that would work well. But here are the issues I would apprecaite suggestions on: 1) I'd like to do in-ceiling height speakers. I'm not sure I like the new Xa2's as heights. And I don't see any new in-ceiling speakers. Would the Vaulta's be a good match to use as the heights? Or would the Xa2's be better? Or would you recommend something else? 2) I'd like on-wall or in-wall rear surrounds. I had the Emotive ERD-1's in the past, and liked them. But I don't have them anymore and Emotive doesn't appear to oiffer them anymore. The Xa2's as rear-surrounds seem really strange. I'd have to mount them up near the ceiling for them to be pointed correctly. In which case they'd be right beside the rear heights and essentially pointless. But then again, having on-wall speakers where I need them is a little problematic since it will be right in the path of where people need to walk. So I'm really not sure what to do here. Any suggestions on rear surrounds to go with the rest of the config? Or am I just out of luck and should just go without rear surrounds? I would appreciate any and all comments/advice? Thannks. Attachments:Living Room Design.pdf (108.23 KB)
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Post by ttocs on Feb 24, 2024 21:13:55 GMT -5
In-wall speakers can have problems reaching the low frequency rating. In my case, two in-wall speakers measure down to about 55Hz, but the other two barely go down to 100Hz, and they are rated to 47Hz and are pretty decent speakers (Martin Logan IW, about $600 each in 2019). My feeling on this is this, if you can use on-wall speakers then you won't have to wonder if the wall is going to cooperate, the speaker has a tuned box around it.
I was very impressed with the Vaulta ATL-6.5 speakers Emotiva used at AXPONA last year, they sounded really great in a huuuuuuge room! These would be a very good choice for the rear surrounds and tops. I'm considering these for myself.
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Post by steveco on Feb 24, 2024 22:44:52 GMT -5
Thanks, ttocs! I hadn't even considered the Vaulta's for rear surroounds. But now looking at them I see they specifically say a use case is for in-wall surrounds. But regarding your concerns around in-wall low-frequency response, are you saying you wouldn't be concerned about that with these?
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Post by ttocs on Feb 24, 2024 23:09:30 GMT -5
Thanks, ttocs! I hadn't even considered the Vaulta's for rear surroounds. But now looking at them I see they specifically say a use case is for in-wall surrounds. But regarding your concerns around in-wall low-frequency response, are you saying you wouldn't be concerned about that with these? I'm suggesting the outdoor version, with brackets. They don't have the folded tweeter, which I happen to love, but they do sound very good. Airmotiv Vaulta ATL-6.5 Outdoor Loudspeaker Pair  In my previous post I was simply cautioning about the fact that not every wall cavity is equal in how it reacts to speakers mounted into it. |
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Post by steveco on Feb 24, 2024 23:24:25 GMT -5
Oh, OK. Sorry, I misunderstood. Darn! I'm sure the wife won't go for those hanging a shoulder hight on that wall. And just realized the other Vaulta's need at least 4" of space. So that won't work in my wall either. Crap! Back to the drawing board....
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Post by ttocs on Feb 24, 2024 23:55:15 GMT -5
Oh, OK. Sorry, I misunderstood. Darn! I'm sure the wife won't go for those hanging a shoulder hight on that wall. And just realized the other Vaulta's need at least 4" of space. So that won't work in my wall either. Crap! Back to the drawing board.... If the wall is made with 2x4's, then it's a 3-1/2" cavity plus the drywall, which is a minimum of 1/2", which equates to 4" of total depth. If you need more, just add a "spacer" made with solid wood, MDF, or another thickness of drywall. Drywall is much easier to work with if you want the spacer to be round. Also, note that your wall might actually have 5/8" drywall, in which case it would be more than enough. And if you just need a tad more than 4", you could use one or more thicknesses of poster board, or other heavy paper product. Ram Board is used to cover floors during construction and is almost 1/16" thick. I have one speaker in a crazy place. It's between a door and a window, with electrical conduit inside, so I needed to build out a frame to mount a speaker within. It works, and this is one of the speakers that measures better in the bass region. This speaker needs 3-7/8" of depth behind it.  |
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Post by leonski on Feb 25, 2024 1:22:35 GMT -5
Don't 'in-wall' or 'ceiling mount' speakers come WITH an enclosure?
And if not? Do they have some kind of recommendation as to size / volume of said enclosure?
If they do NOT come with an enclosure or information about one? I'd be tempted to go the
Automotive Speaker route.....if you can find some REALLY high end types at 4 ohms or better....
with available tweeter.
I have no idea if such a thing even exists.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 25, 2024 2:51:26 GMT -5
MOST in-wall and in-ceiling speakers are "open backed" and do not come with an enclosure. The idea is that the entire area inside the wall, or at least between the two studs on either side, becomes "the enclosure". You're really treating the wall or ceiling as an infinite baffle... Most modern normal box speakers are either... - sealed ("air suspension") where the cabinet provides an "air spring" for the woofer... - or tuned ("bass reflex") where a port or passive radiator is used to tune the cabinet to match the characteristics of the driver...
However, in the early days, speakers in cabinets usually employed a much less structurally strong "infinite baffle box"... What that means is that the box isn't designed to contain pressure but merely to block the sound from the rear of the driver from wrapping around to the front.
This is (more or less) effectively the same as simply mounting the speaker driver in "an infinitely large wall or open baffle"... and so the name.
And this is still how most small in-wall and in-ceiling speakers work... It's also the way many automotive speakers work... like the ones mounted in the back deck... (The trunk of a car is much too large to provide any spring or be tuned for the small speakers usually used for this.) As I said, this is still the way MOST in-wall and in-ceiling "speakers" work... You CAN purchase separate enclosures designed to mount between wall studs... And they would be recommended for speakers intended to generate significant amounts of bass...
And most in-wall SUBWOOFERS have an integral enclosure... or a choice of enclosure boxes designed to be used with them.
With the amount of low-frequency energy generated by a subwoofer the wall would not be strong enough to contain the "back pressure"... (So it would probably vibrate a lot, sound really bad, and eventually tear the wall down.)
In general it is assumed that the purpose of the enclosure is "just to contain the sound coming from the rear of the speaker". (So the enclosures are not considered to be terribly critical in terms of volume or tuning... like the cabinets on "normal speakers".) And, if you have drop ceilings, it is assumed that the volume above them is "so large that it's OK to treat it like an infinite baffle".
Don't 'in-wall' or 'ceiling mount' speakers come WITH an enclosure? And if not? Do they have some kind of recommendation as to size / volume of said enclosure? If they do NOT come with an enclosure or information about one? I'd be tempted to go the Automotive Speaker route.....if you can find some REALLY high end types at 4 ohms or better.... with available tweeter. I have no idea if such a thing even exists. |
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Post by thezone on Feb 25, 2024 4:11:27 GMT -5
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Post by steveco on Feb 25, 2024 11:19:28 GMT -5
If the wall is made with 2x4's, then it's a 3-1/2" cavity plus the drywall, which is a minimum of 1/2", which equates to 4" of total depth. Got it. Thanks, I wasn't thinking that through. And thanks, KeithL for that explanation. So based on this maybe the Vaulta AVR 6.5's would be a decent option for both the in-ceiling and in-wall surrounds? Now that I've looked at some additional options, it does look like consensus is to have the heigh speakers angled toward the MLP instead of straight down, which brings me back to the new Xa2's. But I just don't think I'd like how that would look (and am pretty sure my wife wouldn't approve). The krix speakers that thezone pointed to do look nice, but looks like I'd have to travel to Australia for those - maybe an excuse for a trip :-) Other options I've recently come accross are: RSL C34E MKII in-ceiling speakers
Thoughts on something like that? Or those vs. the Vaulta AVR's? Or is there a significant differen between those in ceiling and something like the Xa2's? |
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Post by leonski on Feb 25, 2024 16:54:28 GMT -5
RSL is a Southern California Boutique brand. Originally? Owned by one guy, who I think owns it today.
He had a new idea and had paid sales guys with NO commission. He eventually had 6 or 8 stores thruout the Southern California area.
The speaker line was excellent for the time. I had the 3600 studio monitor which was a slightly improvied copy of the JBL 4311 / L100 series.
Same large, ported 12" 3-way with mid and tweet adjustible pads.....
This line, including the earlier 3300 and the well regarded 'SpeedScreen'......still have a small but loyal following.
At one point the original guy SOLD the store and the new owners took 3 or 4 years to run it into the ground....when the original owner
REPurchased the name and started in with a new sales model....
I sold my 3600s to purchase some Magnepans......
I would seriously consider any speaker ONLY after audition. Even RSL which I'm predisposed to like....
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