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Post by SticknStones on Apr 5, 2010 10:37:57 GMT -5
So dare I ask... Has the XMC-1 pre-order list already been offered and pulled? I haven't seen one yet so I was just currious. As I understand it, the list for the XMC-1 was ended earlier than the UMC-1 and is a much shorter list. Doug I called Sarah sometime back to verify that I was on the XMC pre-order list which she was happy to check. All is good with my XMC registry.
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Post by junchoon on Apr 5, 2010 11:03:37 GMT -5
i am not saying i wont buy xmc-1 based on whether it is balanced or not - i just want to do my homework 1st after xpa-5. to be honest, the dsd direct feature (or the lack of it) on xmc-1 will be more a deal breaker for me. right now, it seems that dsd direct is not in the specs. IF, however, xmc-1 is full balanced for all XLR outputs, it might be a trump card.
wps
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 5, 2010 11:57:49 GMT -5
i am not saying i wont buy xmc-1 based on whether it is balanced or not - i just want to do my homework 1st after xpa-5. to be honest, the dsd direct feature (or the lack of it) on xmc-1 will be more a deal breaker for me. right now, it seems that dsd direct is not in the specs. IF, however, xmc-1 is full balanced for all XLR outputs, it might be a trump card. wps I'm one of those evil 'speculators' here, so I'm going to do some speculation. Any aspect of the XMC-1 that would make it a true, fully balanced design would likely send its price tag way north of $2k. I also think there were murmurs at one point of a reference Pre/Pro a step beyond the XMC, like an RMC. If they did something like that, a fully balanced design might be something in consideration. So, if that's truly what you're waiting for, I'd look for something like that in the XSP-1, maybe, or look elsewhere. I'm sure there's some company out there with a fully balanced Pre/Pro in the $8-12k range you could buy (I haven't looked, just guessing). As for the XPA-5, at its price, it too would never be a fully balanced design (based on today's manufacturing and technology costs). I'm not sure if there is a fully balanced multi-channel amp out there, but again, if there is, look for it in the $8k+ price point, not the $800 price point.
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Post by Mr. Ben on Apr 5, 2010 15:17:39 GMT -5
I'm one of those evil 'speculators' here, so I'm going to do some speculation. Any aspect of the XMC-1 that would make it a true, fully balanced design would likely send its price tag way north of $2k. I also think there were murmurs at one point of a reference Pre/Pro a step beyond the XMC, like an RMC. If they did something like that, a fully balanced design might be something in consideration. So, if that's truly what you're waiting for, I'd look for something like that in the XSP-1, maybe, or look elsewhere. I'm sure there's some company out there with a fully balanced Pre/Pro in the $8-12k range you could buy (I haven't looked, just guessing). As for the XPA-5, at its price, it too would never be a fully balanced design (based on today's manufacturing and technology costs). I'm not sure if there is a fully balanced multi-channel amp out there, but again, if there is, look for it in the $8k+ price point, not the $800 price point. Outlaw audio makes some affordable balanced multi-channel amps. The 7500, 7700, and 7900, in the $1600-$3500 range. I'd also be surprised if the XMC-1 was fully balanced.
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Post by houston1 on Apr 5, 2010 15:41:12 GMT -5
I'm sure there's some company out there with a fully balanced Pre/Pro in the $8-12k range you could buy (I haven't looked, just guessing). As for the XPA-5, at its price, it too would never be a fully balanced design (based on today's manufacturing and technology costs). I'm not sure if there is a fully balanced multi-channel amp out there, but again, if there is, look for it in the $8k+ price point, not the $800 price point. Hey Bill, Is a fully balanced design really worth 10x the price? I mean from your perspective, does the sound quality improve dramatically or is it much more subtle? I have never owned anything truly balanced so I am looking for a little perspective. Thanks, John
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 5, 2010 15:47:49 GMT -5
I'm sure there's some company out there with a fully balanced Pre/Pro in the $8-12k range you could buy (I haven't looked, just guessing). As for the XPA-5, at its price, it too would never be a fully balanced design (based on today's manufacturing and technology costs). I'm not sure if there is a fully balanced multi-channel amp out there, but again, if there is, look for it in the $8k+ price point, not the $800 price point. Hey Bill, Is a fully balanced design really worth 10x the price? I mean from your perspective, does the sound quality improve dramatically or is it much more subtle? I have never owned anything truly balanced so I am looking for a little perspective. Thanks, John This is sort of a subjective question. I have owned excessively expensive balanced gear from Balanced Audio Technologies. Was it worth it? No. Mostly because they also try to add a tube sound to their solid state stuff, which just adds distortion, which I didn't like at all. I believe if you have all the gear to match a fully balanced system, you have probably bought some very high end stuff. If you can afford that, it's probably worth it to you. Is it worth it for the average person to spend as much on their amp as they do on their car? Probably not. The only time I think you could EVER hear a difference, and if there was one, it would be subjective whether it was better or worse, is in a listening 'chamber', perfectly treated, adjusted, with super-pure content to play, etc., etc. IMO - no, it's not worth it at all. But, usually, along with a fully balanced amplifier design, you usually end up with a better amplifier. Hence, 7 XPA-1's for $7k for a fully-balanced surround system would be KILLER. Who cares if anything else in that chain was balanced, right?
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Post by teedub21 on Apr 5, 2010 15:50:38 GMT -5
i am not saying i wont buy xmc-1 based on whether it is balanced or not - i just want to do my homework 1st after xpa-5. to be honest, the dsd direct feature (or the lack of it) on xmc-1 will be more a deal breaker for me. right now, it seems that dsd direct is not in the specs. IF, however, xmc-1 is full balanced for all XLR outputs, it might be a trump card. wps I'm one of those evil 'speculators' here, so I'm going to do some speculation. Any aspect of the XMC-1 that would make it a true, fully balanced design would likely send its price tag way north of $2k. I also think there were murmurs at one point of a reference Pre/Pro a step beyond the XMC, like an RMC. If they did something like that, a fully balanced design might be something in consideration. So, if that's truly what you're waiting for, I'd look for something like that in the XSP-1, maybe, or look elsewhere. I'm sure there's some company out there with a fully balanced Pre/Pro in the $8-12k range you could buy (I haven't looked, just guessing). As for the XPA-5, at its price, it too would never be a fully balanced design (based on today's manufacturing and technology costs). I'm not sure if there is a fully balanced multi-channel amp out there, but again, if there is, look for it in the $8k+ price point, not the $800 price point. Here ya go: www.gemstoneaudio.com/amplifiers/blue_diamond.php Fully balanced and five channels for $2295 or 7 for $2495.
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 5, 2010 15:53:50 GMT -5
I'm one of those evil 'speculators' here, so I'm going to do some speculation. Any aspect of the XMC-1 that would make it a true, fully balanced design would likely send its price tag way north of $2k. I also think there were murmurs at one point of a reference Pre/Pro a step beyond the XMC, like an RMC. If they did something like that, a fully balanced design might be something in consideration. So, if that's truly what you're waiting for, I'd look for something like that in the XSP-1, maybe, or look elsewhere. I'm sure there's some company out there with a fully balanced Pre/Pro in the $8-12k range you could buy (I haven't looked, just guessing). As for the XPA-5, at its price, it too would never be a fully balanced design (based on today's manufacturing and technology costs). I'm not sure if there is a fully balanced multi-channel amp out there, but again, if there is, look for it in the $8k+ price point, not the $800 price point. Outlaw audio makes some affordable balanced multi-channel amps. The 7500, 7700, and 7900, in the $1600-$3500 range. I'd also be surprised if the XMC-1 was fully balanced. Can you confirm all of those are FULLY balanced amplifier designs? The only one they claim to be on their site is the 7900 for $3500. Now, 7 x 300 @ 8ohm fully balanced is still a fantastic bargain, but also still >3x cost per channel of the XPA-5 (not fully balanced). Fully balanced is sort of like $100,000 speakers. Can you hear a difference? Are they better than $10k speakers? I don't know, maybe, sure, yeah, what the heck, go for it! Do I think the 7900 from Outlaw is going to crush my XPA-5 in sonic performance because it's fully balanced? ;D No. I'll stick with my sadly unbalanced, lackluster Emotiva XPA-5 design, and just hope my ears never get told it's not fully balanced. Don't tell anyone, but I'm going to keep using its balanced connections, as well, despite their lack of total balance. At this point, I'm feeling so unbalanced, I might fall over.
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 5, 2010 15:58:53 GMT -5
I'm one of those evil 'speculators' here, so I'm going to do some speculation. Any aspect of the XMC-1 that would make it a true, fully balanced design would likely send its price tag way north of $2k. I also think there were murmurs at one point of a reference Pre/Pro a step beyond the XMC, like an RMC. If they did something like that, a fully balanced design might be something in consideration. So, if that's truly what you're waiting for, I'd look for something like that in the XSP-1, maybe, or look elsewhere. I'm sure there's some company out there with a fully balanced Pre/Pro in the $8-12k range you could buy (I haven't looked, just guessing). As for the XPA-5, at its price, it too would never be a fully balanced design (based on today's manufacturing and technology costs). I'm not sure if there is a fully balanced multi-channel amp out there, but again, if there is, look for it in the $8k+ price point, not the $800 price point. Here ya go: www.gemstoneaudio.com/amplifiers/blue_diamond.php Fully balanced and five channels for $2295 or 7 for $2495. You guys are killing me. Fair enough, it can be had. This one's an even BETTER deal than the Outlaw in cost per channel. Actually, by spec, it looks like a phenomenal performer. I wonder what it sounds like. Of course, there's balance, and there's separation. I'll take 7 x UPA-1's = $2303 over just about any balanced multi. Your point is proven, though. But, again, $2300 vs. $800 for 5 x 200 channels. Still almost 3x per channel for fully balanced design.
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Post by houston1 on Apr 5, 2010 16:12:21 GMT -5
IMO - no, it's not worth it at all. But, usually, along with a fully balanced amplifier design, you usually end up with a better amplifier. Hence, 7 XPA-1's for $7k for a fully-balanced surround system would be KILLER. Who cares if anything else in that chain was balanced, right? Thanks for the info . The one thing I want is to maximize the (sound quality)/(price) ratio. Speakers were my biggest upgrade in sound quality, and the Emo amps also helped out. I just don't want to throw money away for a very very small change in SQ. I have always thought of upgrading audio as a function of the change in SQ= 1/$$ or (ΔSQ= 1/$$). Meaning at low prices, a little more $$ gets me much better sound. But, as I move up the $$, the change in SQ is much much less before it gets almost imperceptible. Thanks, John
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Post by engtaz on Apr 5, 2010 16:56:02 GMT -5
Looking forward to the XMC
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Post by Mr. Ben on Apr 5, 2010 18:39:26 GMT -5
Outlaw audio makes some affordable balanced multi-channel amps. The 7500, 7700, and 7900, in the $1600-$3500 range. I'd also be surprised if the XMC-1 was fully balanced. Can you confirm all of those are FULLY balanced amplifier designs? The only one they claim to be on their site is the 7900 for $3500. Now, 7 x 300 @ 8ohm fully balanced is still a fantastic bargain, but also still >3x cost per channel of the XPA-5 (not fully balanced). Fully balanced is sort of like $100,000 speakers. Can you hear a difference? Are they better than $10k speakers? I don't know, maybe, sure, yeah, what the heck, go for it! Do I think the 7900 from Outlaw is going to crush my XPA-5 in sonic performance because it's fully balanced? ;D No. I'll stick with my sadly unbalanced, lackluster Emotiva XPA-5 design, and just hope my ears never get told it's not fully balanced. Don't tell anyone, but I'm going to keep using its balanced connections, as well, despite their lack of total balance. At this point, I'm feeling so unbalanced, I might fall over. The manual sure seems to say so: "Your new Outlaw Audio Fully-Balanced, Differential Multi-Channel Amplifier is a state-of-the-art, high performance audio component. It is built utilizing totally complementary circuitry from input to output." "The 7700/7500 differential design virtually eliminates cross talk, through a technology known as 'common mode rejection'. Compared to single-ended designs, the 7700/7500 requires half the rail voltage for a given power allowing for increased transient performance." The 7500 is 200w x 5 for $1600, which is cheaper than the Gemstone amps, but still much more than Emotiva's [unbalanced] XPA-5. I have no idea how they sound. I'm not a fan of predicting sound quality by looking at specs anyway. To get a bit back on topic, I do really like my fully balanced preamp
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Post by junchoon on Apr 5, 2010 20:17:49 GMT -5
IMO - no, it's not worth it at all. But, usually, along with a fully balanced amplifier design, you usually end up with a better amplifier. Hence, 7 XPA-1's for $7k for a fully-balanced surround system would be KILLER. Who cares if anything else in that chain was balanced, right? that's the main thing i am looking at - fully balanced usually are a better amp. ever wonder why xpa-1 is full balanced while the other amps (XPA-3, XPA-5, etc.) are not full balanced?? i am not saying xpa-5 is bad and cannot match well with xmc-1, but if i ever have 5 or 7 xpa-1 in my system, i want to make sure the pre-amp can take advantage of fully balanced design. wps
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Post by Spiky on Apr 5, 2010 21:52:02 GMT -5
If you ever have 5-7 XPA-1s in your system, you may want to make sure your electrical system can handle the load.
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bootman
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Typing useless posts on internet forums....
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Post by bootman on Apr 5, 2010 22:28:50 GMT -5
If you ever have 5-7 XPA-1s in your system, you may want to make sure your electrical system can handle the load. A single 240V/30A circuit would actually work quite well.
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hemster
Global Moderator
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
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Post by hemster on Apr 5, 2010 22:38:23 GMT -5
A single 240V/30A circuit would actually work quite well. True.. oh how I miss that.. I had 240V/30A in my home in the UK....
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 5, 2010 23:23:29 GMT -5
A single 240V/30A circuit would actually work quite well. True.. oh how I miss that.. I had 240V/30A in my home in the UK.... You can always make one in your home in the US. In one of my prior houses, I added all sorts of new electrical circuits just for fun.
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hemster
Global Moderator
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
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Post by hemster on Apr 5, 2010 23:38:10 GMT -5
^ It's not the same... WAF issues... drilling holes, snaking cables etc.. not very easy or any fun... I will however keep this in mind if I ever build a new home.
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Erwin.BE
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It's the room, stupid!
Posts: 2,268
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Post by Erwin.BE on Apr 6, 2010 5:13:51 GMT -5
that's the main thing i am looking at - fully balanced usually are a better amp. ever wonder why xpa-1 is full balanced while the other amps (XPA-3, XPA-5, etc.) are not full balanced?? I suppose the XPA-1 was obvious to make it fully balanced. You have the 2-channel XPA-2. It must have gone something like this: take 1 channel from the XPA-2 for 1 XPA-1 leg and the other channel for the other leg. What you have is a fully balanced amp with almost no engineering costs. So @ 1000$, it's actualy a bit overpriced vs the 800$ XPA-2... I suppose full balanced means using 1 power supply for each channel and this contradicts to the "more headroom for the channel that happens to need it" approach. AT2000 and AT3000 are fully balanced multichannel designs. Cost more.
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Erwin.BE
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It's the room, stupid!
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Post by Erwin.BE on Apr 6, 2010 5:24:50 GMT -5
The XMC-1 will have balanced outputs, but it will not be a fully balanced design. Would you ore someone else be kind enough to explain fully balanced design in a preamp or prepro?
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