ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 30, 2010 19:54:03 GMT -5
Im looking to build myself a few balanced isolation transformers this spring, due to the constant ground loop issues I have with electronics all over the house. Considering a balanced power isolation transformer is basically just a shielded toroidal, with a chassis, fuse, outlets, and maybe an on/off switch I would think Emotiva would be more than setup to produce these in mass quantities at real good pricing(and not have to worry about FW updates.....  ). Compared to some "other" companies that sell these things at $1-2k plus is just absurd. Considering what my consumer cost is to buy a chassis, shielded toroidal, power plug, outlets etc, compared to what Emotiva is able to buy at wholesale, I would have no problems purchasing a completed unit from them(or 10 for that matter....no joke). Hell, if they can sell a 1000watt XPA-5 for $7-800 bucks, Im sure they can pull off a 2000 watt rated balanced isolation transformer for alot less, which would be thousands of dollars less than what some of these other companies are asking...........your thoughts? If you think its a great idea, you should PM big Dan. Id love to see a 2000watt, 1000watt for amps and subs, and maybe a 5-600 watt rated iso transformer for things like source units, processors, pj's etc. |
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Post by littlesaint on Mar 30, 2010 23:14:42 GMT -5
I think the problem is these would sell at pretty low volumes which means higher margins and higher consumer cost. Most of the people who know what they are, and why they would need them, know they are fairly easy and cheap to build if you can find a supplier. Such as... www.equitech.com/products/specials.html |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 31, 2010 4:00:19 GMT -5
I think the problem is these would sell at pretty low volumes which means higher margins and higher consumer cost. Most of the people who know what they are, and why they would need them, know they are fairly easy and cheap to build if you can find a supplier. Such as... www.equitech.com/products/specials.htmlThose prices for blem/refurbs are retarded. $599 for a 2kVA toroidal? Is it shielded even? Hell you can get a new shielded 2kVA toroidal from SOHF for $250 for a single unit........................less if you do a group buy........ Even if Emo sells lower quantity comapred to their other products, they could easily sell a 2000 watt balanced iso transformer for $4-500 and make mad profit at their buying power. |
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Post by littlesaint on Mar 31, 2010 7:06:48 GMT -5
I think the problem is these would sell at pretty low volumes which means higher margins and higher consumer cost. Most of the people who know what they are, and why they would need them, know they are fairly easy and cheap to build if you can find a supplier. Such as... www.equitech.com/products/specials.htmlThose prices for blem/refurbs are retarded. $599 for a 2kVA toroidal? Is it shielded even? Hell you can get a new shielded 2kVA toroidal from SOHF for $250 for a single unit........................less if you do a group buy........ Even if Emo sells lower quantity comapred to their other products, they could easily sell a 2000 watt balanced iso transformer for $4-500 and make mad profit at their buying power. Not all toroids are equal even if their power specs suggest so. I'll leave it at that.  Also, while the current offering are nothing great, Equitech's specials change from time to time and you will occasionally find some steals. I just put the link out there for those interested |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 31, 2010 14:23:06 GMT -5
Plitron makes a high quality toroidal. I would take one of their A spec new 2kva units for a reasonable $250 over the bstock "out of spec" units you provided for $600. Your right, not all of them are made equal, Plitron makes a very high quality unit. But the important thing, is that they sell them at reasonable costs too. www.plitron.com/ |
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Post by Porscheguy on Mar 31, 2010 17:44:20 GMT -5
Emo should also make microwaves and washing machines......
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 31, 2010 18:08:20 GMT -5
Emo should also make microwaves and washing machines...... Do you even know what the purpose is of a balanced isolation transformer? Or who would benefit from it? LOL! ;D How much money have you wasted on useless "power conditioners"? LOL! |
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Post by artiek on Mar 31, 2010 18:18:12 GMT -5
Emo should also make microwaves and washing machines...... Do you even know what the purpose is of a balanced isolation transformer? Or who would benefit from it? LOL! ;D How much money have you wasted on useless "power conditioners"? LOL! That was awfully rude. |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 31, 2010 18:24:22 GMT -5
Do you even know what the purpose is of a balanced isolation transformer? Or who would benefit from it? LOL! ;D How much money have you wasted on useless "power conditioners"? LOL! That was awfully rude. So was the comment about microwaves and washing machines.........it pretty much shows ignorance on what can be a very useful tool for AV gear. Emo is set up where they could easily bring these to market for a very good(reasonable)price. |
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Post by littlesaint on Mar 31, 2010 18:31:47 GMT -5
So was the comment about microwaves and washing machines.........it pretty much shows ignorance on what can be a very useful tool for AV gear. Emo is set up where they could easily bring these to market for a very good(reasonable)price. I think the point is most here would rather Emotiva concentrate on doing a few things very well, than doing everything under the sun. There isn't a very large market for isolated power (for better or worse), and the slate is already pretty full. |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 31, 2010 18:52:26 GMT -5
So was the comment about microwaves and washing machines.........it pretty much shows ignorance on what can be a very useful tool for AV gear. Emo is set up where they could easily bring these to market for a very good(reasonable)price. I think the point is most here would rather Emotiva concentrate on doing a few things very well, than doing everything under the sun. There isn't a very large market for isolated power (for better or worse), and the slate is already pretty full. See thats the thing though. Emotiva specializes in AMPS. The main component of an isolation transformer is the toroidal(whats in every emotiva electronic product). In fact all it is, is a case, a toroidal, a power plug and a few outlets. You cant really mess that up. Emotiva would be able to use one of their common chassis, a toroidal and the back panel would be lined with plugs. How easy is that? A useful product that really does work to get rid of ground loops that can screw with AV products(like subs,amps,displays). |
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Post by man4mopar on Mar 31, 2010 23:30:38 GMT -5
So I may be wrong since electrical equipment like Audio amps, TV's etc are not my back bone of knowledge. But I do know and understand electricty enough to be pretty dangerous. So here are my questions.
Do TV's, Audio equipmet not change voltages internally?
I ask because PC's and a lot of other electrical items have Power supplies that drop the incoming 110/250 volt 50/60 hz to a bunch of other voltages they are after then diodes at times to make them directional currents.
Which begs me to ask why have another variable transformer before it with a variable tranformer to try and keep a steady voltage if there already is one in the devise? Now it sounds these isolators handle much higher voltage spikes then say a PC power supply. Maybe that is why.
Building one, guessing you mean assemble one. And I bet a variable output toroidal transformer with boards and procs is spendy, since that really isn't one item but a whole set to make a process. Unless you do all the building of circuits,processes on a variable transformer I doubt there is much of a savings to just buying one. Then if one modifies the frequency output there is even more. May as well install a inverter since that is what your building.
But maybe I am missing something?
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Post by littlesaint on Apr 1, 2010 7:59:43 GMT -5
So I may be wrong since electrical equipment like Audio amps, TV's etc are not my back bone of knowledge. But I do know and understand electricty enough to be pretty dangerous. So here are my questions. Do TV's, Audio equipmet not change voltages internally? I ask because PC's and a lot of other electrical items have Power supplies that drop the incoming 110/250 volt 50/60 hz to a bunch of other voltages they are after then diodes at times to make them directional currents. Which begs me to ask why have another variable transformer before it with a variable tranformer to try and keep a steady voltage if there already is one in the devise? Now it sounds these isolators handle much higher voltage spikes then say a PC power supply. Maybe that is why. Building one, guessing you mean assemble one. And I bet a variable output toroidal transformer with boards and procs is spendy, since that really isn't one item but a whole set to make a process. Unless you do all the building of circuits,processes on a variable transformer I doubt there is much of a savings to just buying one. Then if one modifies the frequency output there is even more. May as well install a inverter since that is what your building. But maybe I am missing something? Transformers can serve many different roles. In this case, the primary goal is to decouple the the electrical circuit in the device from the primary power source, such as your home. This is very effective in blocking DC current and isolating ground loops. You just have to make sure the transformer is capable of supplying enough power. Easy for CD players, DVRs, etc., but not as easy (or cheap) for high power applications like amps. I'm sure there are devices that do this internally, but most do not, and an isolated transformer offers piece of mind in this area. |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 1, 2010 9:14:28 GMT -5
Agreed above. Also, isolation transformers really arent needed for every application either. My house specifically has alot of ground loop issues. It is over 100 years old, and I am slowly replacing and upgrading all the wiring, main circuit breaker, the house grounds etc. COuple this with ALOT of AV gear, tv cable split lines, etc scattered across the house I have run into alot of ground loops where it effects some displays, and 60hz hum can be heard through a number of subs. So for someone like me, iso transformers will make sense. I have been looking at either DIY or possibly going with Tripp Lite since they make 3 sizes(250,500, and 1000watt rated models)for a reasonable price. But, they arent the prettiest pieces to look at. Kind of one reason why I brought this thread up. Be nice to have a slick looking iso transformer in one of EMotiva's standard casings. From an eastethic point of view it would be nice. And like I said earlier, I think this would be a nice accessory they could provide for their subs, processors, source units, preamps etc. since they literally could roll these out easily for probably a very good price. Again all an iso transformer is a toroidal with a faraday shield, a case, a power plug and some outlets.
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Post by man4mopar on Apr 1, 2010 10:39:59 GMT -5
Transformers can serve many different roles. In this case, the primary goal is to decouple the the electrical circuit in the device from the primary power source, such as your home. Ok so through a transformer instead of hard wired to the grid it is now induced voltage to the grid. A transformer alone, the voltage and freq will rise and fall with the input (grid supply) Unless the transformer is configured to be variable output. This is very effective in blocking DC current Yes a transformer alone will block DC since Transformers don't work long (very short time) with a DC input. But a transformer alone will not change the freq. And even if by some crazy world thing the grid became DC instead of AC the transformer outside will stop working and no DC to you. and isolating ground loops. Have me thinking here  . Only thing I can think of here is you talking about noise (dirty sine wave) from other components effecting the AC sine wave. Which a transformer alone may just very well clean up but I really don't know. But my dangerous thinking it makes sense that it would. Whether I believe I could hear that change in a audio system I would have to experience it. You just have to make sure the transformer is capable of supplying enough power. Easy for CD players, DVRs, etc., but not as easy (or cheap) for high power applications like amps. I'm sure there are devices that do this internally, but most do not, and an isolated transformer offers piece of mind in this area. Well I am no expert on these plitron devices. But read about freq and voltage staying steady. If that is true they are a grid powered inverter/converter and they don't always make a clean sinewave. Not saying the plitrons don't but my experience with grid tie inverters is the less costly ones make dirty sine waves and the cleaner the sine wave the more expensive they get. Now if all your after is the most likely cleaning of the sine wave from noise of other components a transformer alone just may do it and be fairly inexpensive. But as soon as the want for modified voltage output and freq the cost is going to increase a lot. Which sounds like those plitrons do. So have any of you put a scope to your power grid and viewed the sine wave? Then viewed the after effect with one of these devices? I am assuming here, but Emotiva has recomended plugging directly into the wall. So I am of the opinion and assumption they think these are not going to make a noticable difference with a chance of degredation/improvement and so do not make them or state to use one. Again just my assumption and opinion. Cheers for making me think though edited to add improvement by degredation. |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 1, 2010 10:50:03 GMT -5
The reason for an isolation transformer is not to get the equipment to sound better, but to get rid of things like ground loop(that 60hz ground loop hum that affects speakers, subwoofers etc)issues, and display artifacts(like vertical/horizontal banding etc.).
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Post by man4mopar on Apr 1, 2010 11:06:46 GMT -5
The reason for an isolation transformer is not to get the equipment to sound better, but to get rid of things like ground loop(that 60hz ground loop hum that affects speakers, subwoofers etc)issues, and display artifacts(like vertical/horizontal banding etc.). I would concider a hum and I want silence as noise, get rid of the hum and it sounds better. I would also consider a display that moves and I want it rock steady and I get rid of that as it visually being improved. Now are you saying your equipment does this because of a dirty sine wave, incorrect/changing voltage, incorrect freq or a combination of those three or two? Or something else I am not thinking of. I will google a deffintion of ground loop sometime but I am thinking it means as I stated above a dirty sinewave, be it added frequency from other devices or just a bad or influence wave. edited to add I should use spell check, concider should be consider Oh well I left the above alone miss spelled and all. Good day guys. And if you feel I took this off topic we can stop. |
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Post by elwicksto on Apr 1, 2010 12:28:06 GMT -5
The reason for an isolation transformer is not to get the equipment to sound better, but to get rid of things like ground loop(that 60hz ground loop hum that affects speakers, subwoofers etc)issues, and display artifacts(like vertical/horizontal banding etc.). seems like an isolation transformer is slightly outside of emo's core business. however if they did produce one, i'd probably try it. hum is quite high on my extensive list of pet peeves... |
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Post by Porscheguy on Apr 1, 2010 13:48:00 GMT -5
So was the comment about microwaves and washing machines.........it pretty much shows ignorance on what can be a very useful tool for AV gear. Emo is set up where they could easily bring these to market for a very good(reasonable)price. I think the point is most here would rather Emotiva concentrate on doing a few things very well, than doing everything under the sun. There isn't a very large market for isolated power (for better or worse), and the slate is already pretty full. Thanks littlesaint for clearing that up for ntrain. He obviously missed my point.... |
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Post by jedinite24 on Apr 1, 2010 20:40:42 GMT -5
ntrain
One guy who knows a lot about isolation transformers is one Emo lounge member you debated vigorously with some time ago about upgraded power outlets. mintzar
I believe he has 2 or 3 of them in his system. He was very receptive to my questions and with his help I got a 1.kva topaz isolation transformer from fleabay @ a good price. I use it with my preamps, TV and sources. I think I did hear an improvement in SQ in my system.
I still think I still have some ground loops because I hear hums coming from my speakers when I have certain amps connected in my systems.
If Emo does get into the power isolation business I hope their stuff is like Richard Gray's gear.
Emotiva is spreading their wings so why not go into the power business. I mean they have SO much going on now why not.
JD
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). Compared to some "other" companies that sell these things at $1-2k plus is just absurd. Considering what my consumer cost is to buy a chassis, shielded toroidal, power plug, outlets etc, compared to what Emotiva is able to buy at wholesale, I would have no problems purchasing a completed unit from them(or 10 for that matter....no joke). Hell, if they can sell a 1000watt XPA-5 for $7-800 bucks, Im sure they can pull off a 2000 watt rated balanced isolation transformer for alot less, which would be thousands of dollars less than what some of these other companies are asking...........your thoughts?
. Only thing I can think of here is you talking about noise (dirty sine wave) from other components effecting the AC sine wave. Which a transformer alone may just very well clean up but I really don't know. But my dangerous thinking it makes sense that it would. Whether I believe I could hear that change in a audio system I would have to experience it. 
