cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Apr 10, 2010 10:50:10 GMT -5
OK, so where do I start. I took the XPA-2 out of the media room and put it in the game room where my wife listens to 2 channel music and we have the TV running through a Yamaha 665 and ERM 6.2s. The XPA-2 replaced the XPA-5 that is being sold. The sound in this open room is outstanding with the XPA-2. It’s crisp, detailed, open, airy, great sound field and sometimes almost sounds like there is 5.1 surround. ;D But enough of that!! What about those UPA-1s?? Here are some facts to consider first: • I just took the amps out of their boxes and hooked them up. I’m getting a pair of Axiom M80s soon so I didn’t recalibrate anything. • I have my ERM 6.3s sitting on the floor propped up in the front on pillows because I rearranged the furniture and moved the cabinets they were sitting on. This could be impacting the sound to some degree. ;D • I’ve only listened to music in 2 channel and no movies so far. • I believe the “break in period” people speak of is more for the ears than for the components and this set of ears needs more hours of listening to produce a good review. • I hear people say all the time that they notice huge differences in sound with different settings, components, etc. I am not one of those people who can say at the drop of a hat that I notice huge differences between different components or different settings, etc. I don’t. Nuances and small or minor differences aren’t usually picked up with these 62 year old ears of mine!!  So, my first big impression between the XPA-2 and UPA-1s is 2 things—less bass and better separation of channels and I think more depth to the sound field but let’s give it some more time. I would have expected these differences immediately. Yes, there is more punch or ooommmppphhh  with the XPA-2 but the UPAs have plenty of power and loudness and your ears will give out before these amps do or before there is any distortion. At times the sound seemed a bit muddied, veiled ??, not sure of the correct words but that could have been due to many variables so let’s give that issue some more time. I guess overall so far I would say the UPA-1s are more laid back than the XPA-2. Again, that is expected. I love the sound, the separation and the depth and detail. I think these will be a great combo with the Axioms so when those arrive, I’ll recalibrate everything and really give a good review of the 1s….. Whatever the end results are, I believe these are keepers. Worst case is these will end up in the game room and the XPA-2 will end up back in the media room but I don't really expect that to happen..... Sweet-Axiom M80s and monoblock amps!!!! Now, let me go watch golf!!!!! ;D |
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Post by moodyman on Apr 10, 2010 11:43:36 GMT -5
nice writeup..thanks!
Just an FYI: There were several reports on the Emo boards last year involving XPA-2's driving M80's and going into protect mode. This was even confirmed by Emotiva and Axiom...I'm assuming you haven't had any problems??
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Apr 10, 2010 11:58:08 GMT -5
nice writeup..thanks! Just an FYI: There were several reports on the Emo boards last year involving XPA-2's driving M80's and going into protect mode. This was even confirmed by Emotiva and Axiom...I'm assuming you haven't had any problems?? I don't have the 80s yet so no experience with that problem. I thought most of the problems people were having was driving a single M80 with a single XPA-2 instead of running both 80s off a single XPA-2. Anyway, I'll start the 80s off with the UPA-1s so that shouldn't be an issue. |
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Post by moodyman on Apr 10, 2010 12:04:15 GMT -5
I don't have the 80s yet so no experience with that problem. I thought most of the problems people were having was driving a single M80 with a single XPA-2 instead of running both 80s off a single XPA-2. Anyway, I'll start the 80s off with the UPA-1s so that shouldn't be an issue. No..the problem was definitely 2 M80's paired with an XPA-2. I was going to audition a pair but crossed them off my list after reading about all the M80/XPA problems... I believe AXIOM confirmed that the 80's expressed a pretty significant impedance drop at certain freq's sending the XPA into protect mode. |
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Apr 10, 2010 12:07:47 GMT -5
I don't have the 80s yet so no experience with that problem. I thought most of the problems people were having was driving a single M80 with a single XPA-2 instead of running both 80s off a single XPA-2. Anyway, I'll start the 80s off with the UPA-1s so that shouldn't be an issue. No..the problem was definitely 2 M80's paired with an XPA-2. I was going to audition a pair but crossed them off my list after reading about all the M80/XPA problems... I believe AXIOM confirmed that the 80's expressed a pretty significant impedance drop at certain freq's sending the XPA into protect mode. Hmmm, I wonder if the UPA series will have the same issues? ? If so, the 80s go back cause I'm keeping the amps!!! ;D |
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Post by moodyman on Apr 10, 2010 12:13:46 GMT -5
A quote from roadrunner last year...
The problem results because Axiom 's crossover design does not have a roll off filter on its drivers. It allows them to run untethered far below their ability to produce useful output, but under some combination of circumstances this design allows the impedance to drop below 2 Ohms.
At high volume levels, when the M-80 presents a sub 2 Ohm load, the XPA-2 will go into protect mode to keep from melting the voice coils in the speaker. What happens is that the XPA-2 responds to the drop in load by trying to provide the increased power needs of the load and senses that the wall outlet is incapable of providing enough juice to meet the need... protect mode jumps out to save the speakers from damage.
This would never happen, if Axiom had elected to use a crossover design that would provide a roll off filter to prevent the drivers from impeding on each others designed frequency outputs.
If you want a more detailed explanation of exactly what happens, why it happens, and when it happens call Lonnie at Emotiva. He is the man who designed the amp and is very familar with this problem. He has been in touch with the Axiom engineers and is fully aware of what is going on with the M-80.
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Post by moodyman on Apr 10, 2010 12:16:00 GMT -5
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Post by ossif on Apr 10, 2010 12:17:03 GMT -5
Thanks for this little review.
I had both as well the XPA-2 and the UPA-1 and kept the UPA-1. I think that over time you will experience that the UPA-1 reveal more detail and that they are much more spacious in the way they built up the stage. They are less direct and less punchy than the XPA-2 but in a good and more audiophile way.
Give them some more time to break in, that will underline your decision to keep them.
Enjoy.
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Apr 10, 2010 12:51:31 GMT -5
Thanks for this little review. As I had both as well the XPA-2 and the UPA-1 and kept the UPA-1. I think that over time you will experience that the UPA-1 reveal more detail and that they are much more spacious in the way they built up the stage. They are less direct and less punchy than the XPA-2 but in a good and more audiophile way. Give them some more time to break in, that will underline your decision to keep them. Enjoy. Yes, I agree that our ears need some time to "discover" the sound of different components. These are going to be sweet for music and I think that they will be fine for movies as well. They'll be running all day today and will get quite a workout with the Masters... ;D |
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Post by monkumonku on Apr 10, 2010 16:11:47 GMT -5
Thank you for posting your impressions/review - and I look forward to your further comments!
When it comes to breaking in of things, one thing I wonder is why there are not more instances in which people compare a broken-in component (especially speakers) with one that is brand new, side by side. Instead, it seems most of us are going by memory and that could be faulty.
I have had cases in which I felt things sounded better after a breaking in period, but I really couldn't say for sure if this was true or if I just got used to the way it sounded versus the equipment it replaced.
When we get an amp or preamp or something like that, it is harder to do a broken-in versus new comparison because we normally don't have the luxury of having two of the same unit, but with speakers, I would think we could break one of them in and leave the other untouched, then compare the two. Perhaps the reason why this isn't done more is that everyone is like me and too impatient to put up with waiting!
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Post by artiek on Apr 10, 2010 17:15:21 GMT -5
Solid state stuff like you have requires no break in period.
Can we all say placebo effect?
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Apr 10, 2010 17:25:54 GMT -5
Solid state stuff like you have requires no break in period. Can we all say placebo effect? As we are all saying--the break in is for our ears and getting used to the sound differences--either real or perceived... ;D |
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Post by monkumonku on Apr 10, 2010 17:33:49 GMT -5
Solid state stuff like you have requires no break in period. Can we all say placebo effect? While I personally agree with you, there are many experts who claim that solid state items do need a break-in time. A notable expert is Jim Smith, who wrote the book Get Better Sound, and who has impressive credentials as an audio consultant. However, my point was that it would seem to me to be a very easy task to simply compare a broken-in component to the same thing that was new out of the box. Wouldn't any difference then be immediately obvious? Yet, I have not seen any reviews which actually do this. Makes you wonder why that is so. (now someone will probably post a link to such a review.. well, if you have one, please do post the link because that would be helpful). All I have seen are ones done from memory. |
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Apr 10, 2010 17:45:58 GMT -5
Solid state stuff like you have requires no break in period. Can we all say placebo effect? While I personally agree with you, there are many experts who claim that solid state items do need a break-in time. A notable expert is Jim Smith, who wrote the book Get Better Sound, and who has impressive credentials as an audio consultant. However, my point was that it would seem to me to be a very easy task to simply compare a broken-in component to the same thing that was new out of the box. Wouldn't any difference then be immediately obvious? Yet, I have not seen any reviews which actually do this. Makes you wonder why that is so. (now someone will probably post a link to such a review.. well, if you have one, please do post the link because that would be helpful). All I have seen are ones done from memory. You'll have to wait on that review cause I ain't patient enough to do one speaker at a time!! ;D When my 80s get here, they're both going in. That way, if I do send them back, the person that gets them will have a "broken in set"!!! ;D |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 10, 2010 17:57:03 GMT -5
Thanks for this little review. I had both as well the XPA-2 and the UPA-1 and kept the UPA-1. I think that over time you will experience that the UPA-1 reveal more detail and that they are much more spacious in the way they built up the stage. They are less direct and less punchy than the XPA-2 but in a good and more audiophile way. Give them some more time to break in, that will underline your decision to keep them. Enjoy. Technically speaking they can be just as punchy sounding as the XPA-2/1 amps. THey just dont put out as much power into lower impedances, thus giving a more "laid back" sound. When speakers hit frequencies where the impedance dips to around 4-5ohms or less the XPA-2 will put out more power thus giving a more forward/punchy sound presentation. If you EQ out the impedance differences they will in reality sound very similiar. |
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Post by ronjr on Apr 12, 2010 21:46:11 GMT -5
I don't have the 80s yet so no experience with that problem. I thought most of the problems people were having was driving a single M80 with a single XPA-2 instead of running both 80s off a single XPA-2. Anyway, I'll start the 80s off with the UPA-1s so that shouldn't be an issue. I have the M80's powered by the UPA-1's. The sound is clear, articulate, well defined, and accurate. I have the crossover set at 100 and have two subs handling the lower end. But even when I ran the speakers full range the UPA-1's had no problem powering them, though they would get warm/hot on top, but no sign of fatigue whatsoever. Hope this helps. |
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Apr 13, 2010 4:56:49 GMT -5
I don't have the 80s yet so no experience with that problem. I thought most of the problems people were having was driving a single M80 with a single XPA-2 instead of running both 80s off a single XPA-2. Anyway, I'll start the 80s off with the UPA-1s so that shouldn't be an issue. I have the M80's powered by the UPA-1's. The sound is clear, articulate, well defined, and accurate. I have the crossover set at 100 and have two subs handling the lower end. But even when I ran the speakers full range the UPA-1's had no problem powering them, though they would get warm/hot on top, but no sign of fatigue whatsoever. Hope this helps. Thanks for the input. I would think that the UPAs could handle the 80s, but if not, then I'll try the XPA-2. If that doesn't work, then I'll look at other speakers. Interesting that you cross yours at 100 which is higher than the normal 80. Did you try other settings and find 100 to be the best or was it for some other reason (heat??). I've talked to some owners who cross at 60 and some at 40 with good results. Just curious.... ;D |
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Post by ronjr on Apr 13, 2010 11:00:24 GMT -5
I have the M80's powered by the UPA-1's. The sound is clear, articulate, well defined, and accurate. I have the crossover set at 100 and have two subs handling the lower end. But even when I ran the speakers full range the UPA-1's had no problem powering them, though they would get warm/hot on top, but no sign of fatigue whatsoever. Hope this helps. Thanks for the input. I would think that the UPAs could handle the 80s, but if not, then I'll try the XPA-2. If that doesn't work, then I'll look at other speakers. Interesting that you cross yours at 100 which is higher than the normal 80. Did you try other settings and find 100 to be the best or was it for some other reason (heat??). I've talked to some owners who cross at 60 and some at 40 with good results. Just curious.... ;D I did try other settings, and the minimal heat issue is not the reason for the crossover. The bass just sounds/feels fuller at the 100 crossover. Also, I was under the impression that this would allow the UPA-1's to more effectively power the mains slightly narrower range (>100) while taking the more taxing load of <100 of the UPS-1's thus helping with efficiency. I could be wrong in my thinking and gladly invite input/correction from the more knowledgeable members of this forum. Thanks |
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Apr 14, 2010 6:29:15 GMT -5
Thanks for the input. I would think that the UPAs could handle the 80s, but if not, then I'll try the XPA-2. If that doesn't work, then I'll look at other speakers. Interesting that you cross yours at 100 which is higher than the normal 80. Did you try other settings and find 100 to be the best or was it for some other reason (heat??). I've talked to some owners who cross at 60 and some at 40 with good results. Just curious.... ;D I did try other settings, and the minimal heat issue is not the reason for the crossover. The bass just sounds/feels fuller at the 100 crossover. Also, I was under the impression that this would allow the UPA-1's to more effectively power the mains slightly narrower range (>100) while taking the more taxing load of >100 of the UPS-1's thus helping with efficiency. I could be wrong in my thinking and gladly invite input/correction from the more knowledgeable members of this forum. Thanks Whichever cross over sounds and works best to you in your room is the proper crossover point. The standard baseline, default and starting point is 80. It just depends on what your speakers can handle and where you get the tightest bass, The 80s can be crossed as low as 40 and handle the bass but I still always cross everything at 80 so the processor and speakers can take a break and let the sub handle the lower LFE. |
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with the XPA-2 but the UPAs have plenty of power and loudness and your ears will give out before these amps do or before there is any distortion. At times the sound seemed a bit muddied, veiled ??, not sure of the correct words but that could have been due to many variables so let’s give that issue some more time.
