UMC-1 triggering an APC H15 Line Conditioner

[bborzell]

I rather doubt that this is a UMC-1 issue. My guess is that it has more to do with the APC H15. Anyway, here is the issue.

As I currently understand the configuration, the APC H15 has 2 outlets for plugging in High Current Amps which are programmable to be switched on/off with a delay that is set by the user. The delayed outlets are controlled by a 12V trigger from a receiver/processor.

In my case, once it is turned on, the UMC-1 sends a signal via 12V trigger to the APC H15 which is supposed to delay power to the amps outlets for a defined period (from 0 to 12 seconds).

What has happened thus far is the opposite. I turn the UMC-1 on and it triggers the APC but the effect is to immediately turn on power to the amp outlets in the APC and then, after the passage of the programed delay, the APC turns off the amp outlets; exactly the reverse of what I am trying to accomplish.

I don't know much about how the triggers work. I had assumed that they had binary flags; if the trigger signal is sent to a device in an "off" mode, it turns it on and, conversely, if it is sent to a device that is "on" perhaps it turns it off.

I see in the setup that the UMC-1 triggers can be customized for Amp1, Amp2, music and movies. Perhaps the answer to my question is somewhere in the setup for the UMC-1, but if it is simply on/off to whatever the 12V line is hooked up to, then I am not sure of the significance of the trigger "options" mentioned above.

Anybody using a UMC-1 to trigger amp turn on delays with an APC H15?

I have a note into both Emo support as well as to APC support.

[pczach]

Bborzell, you could avoid this issue completely if you do not plug your amp into the H15. I have this conditioner, but do not plug the amps into it. Emotiva recommends that you don't use power conditioners of any kind with their amps. Just plug it into the wall. It has internal protection circuits to handle power issues, and will be able to handle all power demands without hesitation or limitations.

I know this doesn't address the issue you present here directly, but I've found plugging my amp directly into the wall, even on the same circuit, has eliminated any and all problems with the APC or circuit breakers. If you already knew this, but you still want to plug the amps into the H15, I guess I can't help you. ;D

Good luck!

[bborzell]

Apr 17, 2010 14:22:33 GMT -5 pczach said:

Bborzell, you could avoid this issue completely if you do not plug your amp into the H15. I have this conditioner, but do not plug the amps into it. Emotiva recommends that you don't use power conditioners of any kind with their amps. Just plug it into the wall. It has internal protection circuits to handle power issues, and will be able to handle all power demands without hesitation or limitations.

I know this doesn't address the issue you present here directly, but I've found plugging my amp directly into the wall, even on the same circuit, has eliminated any and all problems with the APC or circuit breakers. If you already knew this, but you still want to plug the amps into the H15, I guess I can't help you. ;D

Good luck!

Thanks for the reply. Truth be told, I'm trying to set the system up to be as wife friendly as possible. I figure if I can boil it down to turning on the UMC-1 and whatever source she wants to use, then all will be well.

As it is now, I have three amps serving 7 speakers and 1 another amp for zone 2. When I list the turning on sequence, her eyes glaze over. I was hoping that the 2 B&Ks could go on with the UMC-1 through the trigger and the UPA-2 would be triggered by the DC pas through in the APC.

I could use the delay on the APC and then turn it off when not being used, but I read somewhere that the surge protection circuit needs to be powered up to work. I don't want to leave two hungry amps on 24/7.

As it turns out, my wife came into the room a few minutes ago and asked why I don't just plug the B&K amps into their own surge protectors and let it go at that. Maybe that's the answer.

I guess I just want to get stuff to work out as it is described to work.

[coolhands]

Apr 17, 2010 16:28:13 GMT -5 bborzell said:

Apr 17, 2010 14:22:33 GMT -5 pczach said:

Bborzell, you could avoid this issue completely if you do not plug your amp into the H15. I have this conditioner, but do not plug the amps into it. Emotiva recommends that you don't use power conditioners of any kind with their amps. Just plug it into the wall. It has internal protection circuits to handle power issues, and will be able to handle all power demands without hesitation or limitations.

I know this doesn't address the issue you present here directly, but I've found plugging my amp directly into the wall, even on the same circuit, has eliminated any and all problems with the APC or circuit breakers. If you already knew this, but you still want to plug the amps into the H15, I guess I can't help you. ;D

Good luck!

Thanks for the reply. Truth be told, I'm trying to set the system up to be as wife friendly as possible. I figure if I can boil it down to turning on the UMC-1 and whatever source she wants to use, then all will be well.

As it is now, I have three amps serving 7 speakers and 1 another amp for zone 2. When I list the turning on sequence, her eyes glaze over. I was hoping that the 2 B&Ks could go on with the UMC-1 through the trigger and the UPA-2 would be triggered by the DC pas through in the APC.

I could use the delay on the APC and then turn it off when not being used, but I read somewhere that the surge protection circuit needs to be powered up to work. I don't want to leave two hungry amps on 24/7.

As it turns out, my wife came into the room a few minutes ago and asked why I don't just plug the B&K amps into their own surge protectors and let it go at that. Maybe that's the answer.

I guess I just want to get stuff to work out as it is described to work.

I guess she told you eh!. What a lady. She knows her stuff.

[lang827]

I have the same setup, use the UMC to switch on my fan bank and subwoofer (high current). I have not had any issues. I know that if the trigger cable is not plugged in the H15 will always keep those receptacles ON. With the trigger cable connected, the H15 toggles those receptacles with the trigger pulse. For my setup: UMC turns on...triggers...5sec later the two receptacles are energized on the H15. Seems like your conditioner is not operating correctly. Try a different trigout on the UMC-1. I do suggest taking the Amps off the H15, it is not a very strong source...probably work for one, but it has only a 1500VA ceiling, switching two amps on at once may actually be initiating some suppression circuitry, temporarily disabling the switched outlet functionality, the H15 comes back after a few cycles and then still sees the trigger...turning it off (a very wild guess).

[bborzell]

Apr 18, 2010 8:20:47 GMT -5 lang827 said:

I have the same setup, use the UMC to switch on my fan bank and subwoofer (high current). I have not had any issues. I know that if the trigger cable is not plugged in the H15 will always keep those receptacles ON. With the trigger cable connected, the H15 toggles those receptacles with the trigger pulse. For my setup: UMC turns on...triggers...5sec later the two receptacles are energized on the H15. Seems like your conditioner is not operating correctly. Try a different trigout on the UMC-1. I do suggest taking the Amps off the H15, it is not a very strong source...probably work for one, but it has only a 1500VA ceiling, switching two amps on at once may actually be initiating some suppression circuitry, temporarily disabling the switched outlet functionality, the H15 comes back after a few cycles and then still sees the trigger...turning it off (a very wild guess).

This makes sense. I did try a different trigout and had the same result. I'm looking forward to my discussion with APC tech support on Monday.

I notice that you had an Emo amp. Am I correct in assuming that you have it plugged into the wall as Emo suggests? I still don't get how the Emo amps are immune from surges. My UPA-2 is in the wall for now. I have no reason to believe that my B&Ks have a surge protection circuit. Thanks for the reply.

[pczach]

Bborzell

If you don't know for sure that the B&K amps are protected, you're right not to chance it. I've never heard whether they have protection circuitry or not, so I would assume no until you find out otherwise.

Lang827 makes a good point about the capacity of the H15. If you have too much draw on the APC, it may be triggering(no pun intended) suppression circuitry. Also, do you have any indicator lights illuminated on your H15? If you do, check the manual for possible causes, and make sure you mention any indicators to APC customer support when you speak to them. My first APC unit had incorrectly sensed a bad circuit in my home electrical system. A friend of mine is an authorized APC retailer who does custom installs. He had stacks of them in his storage area at home, so he switched out the unit, and everything was fine. You never know, you may have just gotten a bad unit. He told me that he had never had a defective unit out of the box before my H15, but you never know. I do know that by connecting my amp and my sub to a different electrical outlet on the same circuit, the H15 no longer lights the "line boost" indicator light often. I don't know if the H15 was causing this, or that my electrical outlet was somehow causing it. All I do know is that after I lightened the load that ran through the H15 and the electrical outlet it was plugged into, the light almost never comes on anymore. I just wanted to give you a heads up about my personal experience with this unit.

I also have an Emo XPA-5 that I plug directly into the wall. The way I remember it explained by Lonnie, any sudden surge in power immediately puts the XPA into protection mode. You just have to turn the power switch off, and then on again. The amp resets itself, and you are good to go. I believe he said that the amp would survive anything short of a direct lightning strike, which would fry anything electronic. It might be in your best interests to call Emotiva directly for clarification about this. They can tell you exactly what you need to know to make your decision.

Let us know what you find out.

Pete

[bborzell]

Pete...

The first response (using the blog type back and forth communication) from APC was to ask if I had plugged the trigger cord into the right hole. Not an auspicious start, but we will see where it goes.

...Bob

[bborzell]

Pete...

I resolved the trigger issue. It appears that all of the sources (apparently even unused ones) have to have the trigger flag set to on for the the trigger out that you plan to use to send an on/off signal downstream. I had only set the sources I was using and, in paging through the sources on the remote, it appears that the UMC-1 was sending different signals depending upon the setting of the unused source (which were all off).

So, the UMC-1 and the APC H15 are now talking trigger messages nicely.

BTW, I called B&K and they confirmed that manufacturers of most high quality amps suggest plugging directly into the wall. It didn't sound like there was a quantifiable benefit over using a surge protector other than the fact that most amps in this class are better protected than most surge protectors anyway so you don't gain anything. Perhaps the benefit of bypassing the surge protector and going directly into the wall is one less set of electrical components to deal with.

...Bob

[pczach]

That's good news Bob. APC was able to give you the information you needed to solve the problem. Glad to see things back on track with your system.

The other reason plugging amps directly into the wall is advised is because power conditioners and surge protectors can limit or slow the flow of current. This can prevent the amp from handling the spikes of current neccessary to correctly amplify the peaks and wide frequency swings of music and HT material. Having the amp plugged directly into the wall puts no limits on the amplifier's ability to draw the power when needed. So, sonically, it makes a difference. Enjoy!

Pete

[lang827]

I notice that you had an Emo amp. Am I correct in assuming that you have it plugged into the wall as Emo suggests? I still don't get how the Emo amps are immune from surges. My UPA-2 is in the wall for now. I have no reason to believe that my B&Ks have a surge protection circuit. Thanks for the reply. [/quote]


Yes, I plugged the amp directly into the wall, but mostly due to the fact that there are only two high current outlets on the H15. I would just use triggers to stagger the inrush as I don't have much equipment at all. For internal suppression, I would assume that the amlifiers use MOV's to shunt the transient voltage spikes. I would also assume that amplifiers are a more robust device than processors and can handle a distorted source without much degradation. Personally, if I lived in a stormy area I would install a TVSS (transident voltage surge suppression) at my service entrance and not use a power conditioner unless my video was suffering. Nowdays we have so many electronic devices that are becoming more cirtical (computers, servers, data storage, etc) that surge suppression is a much more reasonable investment.

[strindl]

Apr 19, 2010 21:03:12 GMT -5 lang827 said:

Personally, if I lived in a stormy area I would install a TVSS (transident voltage surge suppression) at my service entrance and not use a power conditioner unless my video was suffering. Nowdays we have so many electronic devices that are becoming more cirtical (computers, servers, data storage, etc) that surge suppression is a much more reasonable investment.

I have one of these installed and maintained by my electric utility company on the back of my meter where the power enters my house. I still have battery backups on all computer equipment plus three of the APC-H15's as a second line of defense on all of my audio systems, but having some sort of whole house surge protection makes sense to me.