Sub Advice Needed with Elemental Design

[eiger]

I had a great chat with Alex over in ED, but I wanted to solicit some of ya'll's advice to on the best option for me.

I have a basement, dedicated 7.1 setup that is used primarily for HT and hardcore gaming. But I've also been listening to more and more music as I grow out my room as well. I say it's about a 70/30 split at this point. The room is 26 x 16 x 8.

The A5-350, as most of you know, is there classic ported 500W sub that is rated down to 18hz I think. But I see that they have the very nice sealed A7s-450 1200w 18" model for near the same price!

Also, at this point in time, there is no wait for the A7s-450.

From what I understand, even though it's A7s is conservatively rated 24-100hz, it ships with their EQ2 device which after some minor tweaking has the ability to go down into the teens after some tuning and will in the end provide more ouput.

What I have now is a measily Klipsch Sub 10 320W bash amp. Guessing either of these options will blow my Klipsch away?

What do you guys think? One of them is sealed, one is ported.

Ed reccomended the sealed even though my tastes are pimarily HT. Does this go against the grain?

I will possibly add another down the road too.

[ntrain42]

Truth of the matter is wattage does not determine output. Alot of factors come into play, cone dispacement,xmax, T/S paremters, box type and size, driver efficiency, room gain etc. etc.

Personally since I have alot of experience with eD and have owned 2 different model subs they have made I would go with the sealed 900 watt(its not really 1300 watts)18" driver without question.

The 18" driver btw will get you plenty of useable extension BELOW 20hz in room.

[eiger]

Thanks ntrain.

So I have seen some people (here and over on AVS) indicate that sealed "is not ideal" for HT purposes.

Can someone explain this to me a little bit?

The only experience I have is with my ported Klipsch sub at this point, but what I am really looking for is two things

1) Mid-Bass. I would say my current setup lacks a little bit in this area
2) When I watch movies I want to get kicked in the face. I need something that will fill the room dimensions above with ease. On the flipside of that coin, when I listen to David Gilmour or whoever on the guitar, I want to also feel the preciseness and be wow'd feeling like I'm there at the concert.
3) After running EQ Wizard I've noticed that I have some dips in my room response. From what I understand a sealed sub will give me an overall flater response than a ported will.

[ntrain42]

Apr 20, 2010 12:43:02 GMT -5 eiger said:

Thanks ntrain.

So I have seen some people (here and over on AVS) indicate that sealed "is not ideal" for HT purposes.

Can someone explain this to me a little bit?

The only experience I have is with my ported Klipsch sub at this point, but what I am really looking for is two things

1) Mid-Bass. I would say my current setup lacks a little bit in this area
2) When I watch movies I want to get kicked in the face. I need something that will fill the room dimensions above with ease. On the flipside of that coin, when I listen to David Gilmour or whoever on the guitar, I want to also feel the preciseness and be wow'd feeling like I'm there at the concert.
3) After running EQ Wizard I've noticed that I have some dips in my room response. From what I understand a sealed sub will give me an overall flater response than a ported will.

Thats balogny. Alot of the typical HT bassheads, go with ports for the few extra DB at the tuning frequency. Sealed subs will have naturally a smoother fs slope at the cost of a few db output.

But to put it simply 2 18" drivers in a room that size(or twice the size for that matter) will have no problem giving you over the top output.

I basically run 2 sealed 15" servo drivers in a room size about half of yours and I get earthquake level bass at reference levels with very, very low distortion. You get that with cone space and xmax. 2 18"s in your room is the way to go.

[bfisher]

I have a A5-350 - I'd say it's used 80/20 movie/music. Fantastic sub - no issues, and I'd buy another in a heartbeat.

That said - going sealed is not a bad option either and I'd bet you'd be thrilled.

The "old" rule of thumb was ported was better for movies because it can be more dynamic and move more air... and sealed was better for movies because it's "tighter" or more responsive.

In my opinion (I'm not an expert... ymmv), those rules are not valid anymore. My ported sub sounds awesome with music... I've tested everything from hard rock to jazz and it's an amazing sub. Tight and refined when it needs to be, and loud and powerful when it needs to be. Could a sealed one do better? Maybe... but I'd probably need an instant A/B comparison to hear it.

Regarding your last post:
1 - midbass - that's a function of your speakers and cross-over points. A good sub may or may not make a difference here. The higher you make the cross-over, the more it will deliver mid-bass... but the easier it will be to find the sub in the room. Not necessarily a bad thing, just my thought.

2. Subs for movies require size. 2 will be better than 1. I have 1 A5-350 now, but plan to add another ED sub soon to round out the room. I also have very good transducers mounted to my couch that only are on during movies. These dramatically increase the amount of bass you feel.

3. never heard of a sealed sub giving you a flatter room response than ported... but I'm no expert. Room response is something you will deal with no matter the sub you purchase... it's the room causing it. There are ways to help tame peaks, but not many good ways to reduce nulls (valleys).

If I was in your shoes today - I'd make the decision on 2 criteria (because I believe you will be happy with either).
1) which sub you could get quicker. ED has a backlog of orders - some people have waited a long time for theirs. I was fortunate to get mine right after ordering.
2) which sub can you live with 2 of. As awesome as the A5-350 is, I plan to get a second sub just to smooth things out. I don't have room for 2 A5-350's so I'll have to get a different model.

If both were available to ship today, I'd pick the A7s just because it's a bit smaller and if you plan to get 2 eventually, it's easier to explain to the wife It was not an option when I purchased.

I'm sure my post will be corrected by others more knowledgeable, but that's my take

[DYohn]

Apr 20, 2010 13:25:00 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Thats balogny.

Balogny? Is that a new brand of subwoofer you're representing or what? ;D

[ntrain42]

Apr 20, 2010 13:27:33 GMT -5 bfisher said:

I have a A5-350 - I'd say it's used 80/20 movie/music. Fantastic sub - no issues, and I'd buy another in a heartbeat.

That said - going sealed is not a bad option either and I'd bet you'd be thrilled.

The "old" rule of thumb was ported was better for movies because it can be more dynamic and move more air... and sealed was better for movies because it's "tighter" or more responsive.

In my opinion (I'm not an expert... ymmv), those rules are not valid anymore. My ported sub sounds awesome with music... I've tested everything from hard rock to jazz and it's an amazing sub. Tight and refined when it needs to be, and loud and powerful when it needs to be. Could a sealed one do better? Maybe... but I'd probably need an instant A/B comparison to hear it.

Regarding your last post:
1 - midbass - that's a function of your speakers and cross-over points. A good sub may or may not make a difference here. The higher you make the cross-over, the more it will deliver mid-bass... but the easier it will be to find the sub in the room. Not necessarily a bad thing, just my thought.

2. Subs for movies require size. 2 will be better than 1. I have 1 A5-350 now, but plan to add another ED sub soon to round out the room. I also have very good transducers mounted to my couch that only are on during movies. These dramatically increase the amount of bass you feel.

3. never heard of a sealed sub giving you a flatter room response than ported... but I'm no expert. Room response is something you will deal with no matter the sub you purchase... it's the room causing it. There are ways to help tame peaks, but not many good ways to reduce nulls (valleys).

If I was in your shoes today - I'd make the decision on 2 criteria (because I believe you will be happy with either).
1) which sub you could get quicker. ED has a backlog of orders - some people have waited a long time for theirs. I was fortunate to get mine right after ordering.
2) which sub can you live with 2 of. As awesome as the A5-350 is, I plan to get a second sub just to smooth things out. I don't have room for 2 A5-350's so I'll have to get a different model.

If both were available to ship today, I'd pick the A7s just because it's a bit smaller and if you plan to get 2 eventually, it's easier to explain to the wife It was not an option when I purchased.

I'm sure my post will be corrected by others more knowledgeable, but that's my take

Actually the A7 and A5 ported take up about the same space. The A7 even though its sealed, it has twice the output power and more cone space which will more than make up for the lack of ports in raw output since both drivers efficiency is about the same. And when driven to full output it will have less distortion due to the "sealed accoustic" suspension.

I find that eD's ported subs are a tad "one note" boomy towards rated output even when smoothed out in room compared to their sealed counterparts(And actually I find all eD subs kinda boomy, but the sealed units smooth out pretty well when crossed over 50hz or lower). The sealed units do give more detail with less 2nd,3rd and fourth order harmonics when driven within their capabilities.

Again, Id take the A7's in a heartbeat of the 2 choices.

[Pauly]

ntrain, you didn't recommend Rythmik even once in your posts on this thread lol Good for you, buddy lol

[ntrain42]

Apr 20, 2010 16:30:28 GMT -5 Pauly said:

ntrain, you didn't recommend Rythmik even once in your posts on this thread lol Good for you, buddy lol

He never asked, and pure output seems to be the goal, not musical SQ. eD subs definetly excell when it comes to raw output. A pair of A7's will give him what he is looking for and then some. You would need 3-4 Rythmiks to get roughly the same output as 2 of those A7's..............which are good bang for the buck subs at $800 a piece when buying 2.

[eiger]

Just placed an order for the A7s-450.

www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_138&products_id=640

Can't wait. My order is already going through production and it should ship later next week. 850.00 shipped with EQ2.

Now, I have to go home and tell the wife!

[iceman66]

Apr 20, 2010 17:52:46 GMT -5 eiger said:

Just placed an order for the A7s-450.

www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_138&products_id=640

Can't wait. My order is already going through production and it should ship later next week. 850.00 shipped with EQ2.

Now, I have to go home and tell the wife!

I ordered a A3S-250 the 1st week of March, received it 3 weeks later, hope you get yours quicker than I got mine.

[Pauly]

Apr 20, 2010 17:14:34 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Apr 20, 2010 16:30:28 GMT -5 Pauly said:

ntrain, you didn't recommend Rythmik even once in your posts on this thread lol Good for you, buddy lol

He never asked, and pure output seems to be the goal, not musical SQ. eD subs definetly excell when it comes to raw output. A pair of A7's will give him what he is looking for and then some. You would need 3-4 Rythmiks to get roughly the same output as 2 of those A7's..............which are good bang for the buck subs at $800 a piece when buying 2.

I know, I was just giving you hell lol

[ntrain42]

Why did I think he was looking for dual subs? LOL! Either way the A7S was the right choice...........

Eiger: WHat are you using for a pre/pro or AVR? Not a fan of the eD EQ2 at all...................

[Animo]

WOW!!

Totally missed this thread. Nice to see someone else buy an eD sub without my input...LOL ;D

Ntrain42,
I still don't understand how you keep saying that eD subs are not musical. I had half a dozen lounge members here last week, and auditioned just my mains and sub in 2 and 2.1 channel listening....for most of the day. All of them were impressed with the SQ of my sub. One member gave me a wonderful review, and he is basically a 2 channel man, but everyone got to hear me fire up the whole theater near the end of the day, and he like the others was highly impressed.

Apr 12, 2010 17:15:39 GMT -5 Wideawake said:

1). Animo’s Speakers – I had briefly heard these speakers at Nick’s house during the previous GTG about 1 year ago and I remember not being very impressed with them at the time. They were not placed correctly as their design requires them to be. At Animo’s place they came alive as the boundary walls provided the support that these speakers were meant to utilize. Bass was full bodied and taut. The midrange is to die for. It has one of the best midranges that I have heard in a boxed speaker. The rest of the presentation is also very coherent and I was truly impressed by these speakers. They do double duty for music and HT and perform very well at both. These babies were being driven by the venerable XPA-2.

2). Animo’s Elemental Sub – Ahem, Ntrain is going to kill me but I have to say that this sub is simply amazing. We listened to it with music and with movies. It performed beautifully for both. For music it filled in the lower octaves perfectly providing a full bodied and musical low end. I could not localize it even though often I was standing right in front of it. I had to put my hand on the sub’s enclosure to feel if it was on or not. For movies, it takes you to another realm altogether. Most in the lounge know that I’m not much into HT but after listening to Animo’s HT, with the XPA-2/XPA-5 combo, ERM 6.3 center, ERD surrounds and the ED sub, I will be paying a little more attention to developing my own HT. We watched parts of Hulk II and it was an incredible experience. The LFE effects were rendered superbly by the sub. The deep growls and rumbles felt so real without it being over the top. I got totally immersed in the movie and had a truly memorable movie watching experience.

Eiger,
I posted that quote because I wanted you to see someone's unbiased opinion regarding the sound of an eD sub. Granted mine has a little more output and frequency extension than the 450, but that was my choice after several conversations with the guys at eD. After a year & 1/2 of auditioning many subwoofers, to no avail, I was finally turned onto eD by forum member Dyohn, who actually recommended the 450 to me. However, I like you, called eD before making my purchase. I in turn ended up building my own A7s-650, and have never regretted the choice. I'm sure you will be very happy with your A7s-450. Give us a review when you get it up and running.

[Animo]

Apr 20, 2010 19:17:29 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Why did I think he was looking for dual subs? LOL! Either way the A7S was the right choice...........

Eiger: WHat are you using for a pre/pro or AVR? Not a fan of the eD EQ2 at all...................

Ntrain,
I bought the eQ.2 when I bought my DIY 13Av.2 kit (A7s-650).
It was rudimentary at best, (but did work better than no eq), and I sold it in favor of the SMS-1 from Velodyne. Looking at what Eiger paid, I think he got the special which included the eQ.2 for free. If that's the case, it makes total sense.

[Animo]

Apr 20, 2010 18:11:30 GMT -5 iceman66 said:

Apr 20, 2010 17:52:46 GMT -5 eiger said:

Just placed an order for the A7s-450.

www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_138&products_id=640

Can't wait. My order is already going through production and it should ship later next week. 850.00 shipped with EQ2.

Now, I have to go home and tell the wife!

I ordered a A3S-250 the 1st week of March, received it 3 weeks later, hope you get yours quicker than I got mine.

And how do you like it?
Music?
Movies?

[eiger]

Apr 20, 2010 19:17:29 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Why did I think he was looking for dual subs? LOL! Either way the A7S was the right choice...........

Eiger: WHat are you using for a pre/pro or AVR? Not a fan of the eD EQ2 at all...................

LOL. The last line in my first post that I might eventually go dual probably gave it away.

I'm using an Onkyo 805 as my pre-amp/amp right now. Haven't gone with an outboard solution given my fairly efficient speaker and amp section on the onkyo. At some point I will probably cave tho, and retire the unit to surround duties.

Funny thing is that while Brett over at Ed wasn't exactly trashing Odyssey, he did say the earlier implementations of Onkyo firmwares and Oddsyey Multi EQ/MultiEQ XT had issues. Allegedly some users reported problems with getting upwards of 10-20db boosts that would bork their responses/subs. I looked at their documentation, and they overall reccomend that people disable Audyssey. Seems odd.

I got the EQ2 shipped free, so I'll take it. I guess I'll do the sub crawling to find the best location , maybe run Audyssey and see what happens. If I need to start tweaking with EQ2 I can. I have no experience whatsoever manually EQ'ing subs, but I'm ready to learn if it yields me better performance. I'm a software geek in the pacific northwest, so I don't mind tinkering.

SMS-1 (from what I read) seems like a much better solution, at the point I decide to go with duals.

Broke the news to the wife, and I'm still alive to write this post.

Apr 20, 2010 21:06:00 GMT -5 Animo said:

WOW!!
Eiger,
I posted that quote because I wanted you to see someone's unbiased opinion regarding the sound of an eD sub. Granted mine has a little more output and frequency extension than the 450, but that was my choice after several conversations with the guys at eD. After a year & 1/2 of auditioning many subwoofers, to no avail, I was finally turned onto eD by forum member Dyohn, who actually recommended the 450 to me. However, I like you, called eD before making my purchase. I in turn ended up building my own A7s-650, and have never regretted the choice. I'm sure you will be very happy with your A7s-450. Give us a review when you get it up and running.

Thanks. I'm super pumped. First major upgrade for a while. I currently have a Klipsch 10" sub trying to keep up in a fairly decent sized room. Decided this was the right place to throw my hard earned dollar right now/ Only problem is I'm guessing now that I'll actually have to keep it down when the wife goes to bed with that kind of power.

Will certainly be posting a more in depth review once it arrives and I get the beast set up.

Glad to know it will not dissapoint on both the musical and HT front.

[ntrain42]

Dont waste your time with Audessy, manually set your system up. Also, bypass the free EQ(Ebay it) and use the 805's onboard sub EQ. Its plenty fine and has good flexibility.

[eiger]

Ntrain - Saw your thread over on AVS callin out Ethan on the abuse of his sub and lack of knowledge. LOL. That was comedy.

In all seriousness, it was a rather unfortunate set of circumstances, and I thought your feedback was mature.

At first I was worried, because I don't have alot of experience with electrical/manually EQing subs etc. But I think I would have to try pretty hard to hit the SPLs that that boy did. Don't even remember what they were. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 120dbs wasn't it?

At any rate. Sub arrives day after tomorrow. Can't wait.

[ntrain42]

Apr 20, 2010 21:06:00 GMT -5 Animo said:

WOW!!

Totally missed this thread. Nice to see someone else buy an eD sub without my input...LOL ;D

Ntrain42,
I still don't understand how you keep saying that eD subs are not musical. I had half a dozen lounge members here last week, and auditioned just my mains and sub in 2 and 2.1 channel listening....for most of the day. All of them were impressed with the SQ of my sub. One member gave me a wonderful review, and he is basically a 2 channel man, but everyone got to hear me fire up the whole theater near the end of the day, and he like the others was highly impressed.

Apr 12, 2010 17:15:39 GMT -5 Wideawake said:

1). Animo’s Speakers – I had briefly heard these speakers at Nick’s house during the previous GTG about 1 year ago and I remember not being very impressed with them at the time. They were not placed correctly as their design requires them to be. At Animo’s place they came alive as the boundary walls provided the support that these speakers were meant to utilize. Bass was full bodied and taut. The midrange is to die for. It has one of the best midranges that I have heard in a boxed speaker. The rest of the presentation is also very coherent and I was truly impressed by these speakers. They do double duty for music and HT and perform very well at both. These babies were being driven by the venerable XPA-2.

2). Animo’s Elemental Sub – Ahem, Ntrain is going to kill me but I have to say that this sub is simply amazing. We listened to it with music and with movies. It performed beautifully for both. For music it filled in the lower octaves perfectly providing a full bodied and musical low end. I could not localize it even though often I was standing right in front of it. I had to put my hand on the sub’s enclosure to feel if it was on or not. For movies, it takes you to another realm altogether. Most in the lounge know that I’m not much into HT but after listening to Animo’s HT, with the XPA-2/XPA-5 combo, ERM 6.3 center, ERD surrounds and the ED sub, I will be paying a little more attention to developing my own HT. We watched parts of Hulk II and it was an incredible experience. The LFE effects were rendered superbly by the sub. The deep growls and rumbles felt so real without it being over the top. I got totally immersed in the movie and had a truly memorable movie watching experience.

Eiger,
I posted that quote because I wanted you to see someone's unbiased opinion regarding the sound of an eD sub. Granted mine has a little more output and frequency extension than the 450, but that was my choice after several conversations with the guys at eD. After a year & 1/2 of auditioning many subwoofers, to no avail, I was finally turned onto eD by forum member Dyohn, who actually recommended the 450 to me. However, I like you, called eD before making my purchase. I in turn ended up building my own A7s-650, and have never regretted the choice. I'm sure you will be very happy with your A7s-450. Give us a review when you get it up and running.

I never said they're not musical, just not as musical as other subs Ive played with, and I would definetly put eD in the list of "HT output" subs. But if there was one or 2 subs I had to go with from eD for purely music it would be the A7s or A5s models. Regardless, he made the right choice. The A7s is a good bang for the buck sub.