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Post by fistofsouth on Apr 22, 2010 21:31:35 GMT -5
I was just being safe with that. I have 0% confidence even preorders will get it for $999. I fully expect the XMC-1 to come in at a very bare minimum of $1299. I'm only using the figures provided to us by Emo. Even at $1299 it would be a bargain. My point was that Emo regularly delivers feature-rich products for next to nothing. I'm sure if they had started from scratch with the UMC-1 and decided to add Network Connectivity for Firmware updates the price would be slightly higher, but not $200 more. One certainly can't make that assumption based on the current pricing for the XMC-1 ($999) since it includes so much more than the UMC-1 for only a $300 premium. I think Emo could have offered the UMC-1 with a Network Connection (again this assumes it was designed from scratch with networking in mind) for $35 to $50 more than the current UMC-1. Obviously you feel that the UMC-1 would have commanded a much higher premium to add a Network Connection, somewhere in the $899 range from what you have posted. We are both just speculating and my speculation is likely no more or less valid than yours so we'll simply need to agree to disagree in this regard. In the end I only made my point to confirm that I agree with the OP RuggSkins; he can rest his case in my book because all future Emo Pre/Pros should be equipped with a Network Connection. |
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 22, 2010 21:49:21 GMT -5
I was just being safe with that. I have 0% confidence even preorders will get it for $999. I fully expect the XMC-1 to come in at a very bare minimum of $1299. I'm only using the figures provided to us by Emo. Even at $1299 it would be a bargain. My point was that Emo regularly delivers feature-rich products for next to nothing. I'm sure if they had started from scratch with the UMC-1 and decided to add Network Connectivity for Firmware updates the price would be slightly higher, but not $200 more. One certainly can't make that assumption based on the current pricing for the XMC-1 ($999) since it includes so much more than the UMC-1 for only a $300 premium. I think Emo could have offered the UMC-1 with a Network Connection (again this assumes it was designed from scratch with networking in mind) for $35 to $50 more than the current UMC-1. Obviously you feel that the UMC-1 would have commanded a much higher premium to add a Network Connection, somewhere in the $899 range from what you have posted. We are both just speculating and my speculation is likely no more or less valid than yours so we'll simply need to agree to disagree in this regard. Agreed. Except that I actually feel the UMC-1 might be even higher than that. I do fully expect the UMC-1 to go to $799 (could be more, could be a smidge less). That's also just a guess. I think the platform, as you described would have come in closer to $949-$999. I can't even remember the original point, but if it was that Ethernet updating would help a lot, well I agree 100%. However, that does not mean that just because there is an Ethernet port you'll be able to use it for updating. I am actually not expecting that the XMC-1 will be Ethernet upgradeable. It might, it could be, but I'm not expecting it to be. |
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 22, 2010 21:53:57 GMT -5
Oh, and yes, at $1299 the XMC-1 would be very reasonably priced. I'm hoping it isn't too much more than that. We really have no idea where it'll come in, and it's possible Emotiva hasn't nailed that down yet, either. For example, let's just pretend they didn't expect to need Ethernet firmware updating, but now they really, really want to get it in there. As we've been discussing, at this point in development, it could certainly affect time to market and price. Just as an example. I'm sure there is a lot of learning experience from the UMC-1 they'd like to apply to the XMC-1.
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Post by fistofsouth on Apr 22, 2010 22:48:29 GMT -5
Oh, and yes, at $1299 the XMC-1 would be very reasonably priced. I'm hoping it isn't too much more than that. We really have no idea where it'll come in, and it's possible Emotiva hasn't nailed that down yet, either. For example, let's just pretend they didn't expect to need Ethernet firmware updating, but now they really, really want to get it in there. As we've been discussing, at this point in development, it could certainly affect time to market and price. Just as an example. I'm sure there is a lot of learning experience from the UMC-1 they'd like to apply to the XMC-1. Agreed on all points. |
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Post by weigle2 on Apr 23, 2010 7:27:14 GMT -5
Oh, and yes, at $1299 the XMC-1 would be very reasonably priced. I'm hoping it isn't too much more than that. We really have no idea where it'll come in, and it's possible Emotiva hasn't nailed that down yet, either. For example, let's just pretend they didn't expect to need Ethernet firmware updating, but now they really, really want to get it in there. As we've been discussing, at this point in development, it could certainly affect time to market and price. Just as an example. I'm sure there is a lot of learning experience from the UMC-1 they'd like to apply to the XMC-1. So, let's talk time to market and price. With news of making the XMC-1 HDMI 1.4 ready, does that mean Ethernet would only be used for 'features' ? That would be extremely short sighted on Emo's part with all the new problems this will likely cause. I agree with fistofsouth that the cost overall of making the UMC-1 upgradeable via Ethernet, would not have been prohibitive if originally planned for from the beginning. Emotiva would not need to host their own servers for updates, they could have easily had it hosted via third party, on fault tolerant servers at really low cost. With the cash people have in this country for high end audio gear, do you really think $100 more for a unit would be a deal breaker? I think most would be willing to pay that, if the XMC-1 does what they say it will, does it reliably without all the problems the UMC-1 has, and is easily updated via Ethernet. I can't believe being HDMI 1.4 compliant will be all that easy to implement, do you? Weigle2 |
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 23, 2010 9:41:20 GMT -5
While several people here continue to point out how "short-sighted" Emotiva is, I'm really curious at this point. I'll use the honor system on this one. Don't use a search engine, and tell me this: What brand and what chips would you use to implement this Ethernet update feature? Also, what software, from IDE to implementation, would be involved? A quick description of the rough board routing would help, too. If what I'm asking is not immediately clear in your mind, then how can you possibly comment on what the development and materials time and cost would be? I know how tempting the search function looks right now, but seriously, can you answer that, off the top of your head? To be offering opinion on this means that you either have done this, or you have looked into it, extensively, out of curiosity. You should at least have a rough idea of what it would take, right?
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ratmice
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Post by ratmice on Apr 23, 2010 10:15:37 GMT -5
Or maybe some use common sense and feel that if sub-200.00 components can include ethernet capability (think BD live) then it can't be that expensive to implement.
Not saying they are right, just that you don't need a EE degree to have an opinion.
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Post by weigle2 on Apr 23, 2010 10:17:20 GMT -5
While several people here continue to point out how "short-sighted" Emotiva is, I'm really curious at this point. I'll use the honor system on this one. Don't use a search engine, and tell me this: What brand and what chips would you use to implement this Ethernet update feature? Also, what software, from IDE to implementation, would be involved? A quick description of the rough board routing would help, too. If what I'm asking is not immediately clear in your mind, then how can you possibly comment on what the development and materials time and cost would be? I know how tempting the search function looks right now, but seriously, can you answer that, off the top of your head? To be offering opinion on this means that you either have done this, or you have looked into it, extensively, out of curiosity. You should at least have a rough idea of what it would take, right? OK, now this is getting ridiculous, and off topic. I am not an electronic engineer, have no access to existing schematics for the UMC-1, and even if I could, would not post something like what you are requesting. I am however, a consumer, with standards that seem to be a little higher than most. All we want are reasonably priced, RELIABLE (trouble free) devices that just plain work. We are not the Beta testers of the world. And how is it that companies like OPPO can do include this without jacking up too much the price of their gear? OK, your turn. Weigle2 Judging by your signature, do you have some sort of equity in Emotiva? Just asking. |
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Apr 23, 2010 10:27:30 GMT -5
Perhaps time to take a chill pill. It's always easy to speculate on how easy something is or is not to design and include in a product. Given the insatiable desire on the part of us... the consumer, the job is never quite finished or done right.
I mean, why stop at Ethernet? Why not go with PoE and eliminate the power cord too? And before someone says the power is not enough over PoE... laptops have processors with low-power requirement and they process a lot more than a pre/pro.
Bottom line is that we need to remember that it is possible to keep dreaming up features and functionality but this may not always be possible in a single product. Certainly not at the price-point of the UMC.
Besides, if it really were as easy as we think, would Emotiva not have included all these things? They do want to make us happy and grow their market share. Other vendors at different higher price-points are finding it tough going and starting to throw in the towel..
Of course that's my 20 cents... FWIW.
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 23, 2010 10:42:27 GMT -5
I agree with fistofsouth that the cost overall of making the UMC-1 upgradeable via Ethernet, would not have been prohibitive if originally planned for from the beginning. On, then, on what do you base your agreement? I agree, it is getting ridiculous. I disagree, it's not off-topic, the topic is whether or not Emotiva should have included Ethernet on the UMC-1. |
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 23, 2010 10:49:15 GMT -5
I am however, a consumer, with standards that seem to be a little higher than most. All we want are reasonably priced, RELIABLE (trouble free) devices that just plain work. We are not the Beta testers of the world. And how is it that companies like OPPO can do include this without jacking up too much the price of their gear? OK, your turn. Weigle2 I'm glad I get a turn, it's more fun that way. I might suggest you re-read everything I've tried to say here. There is an initial development cost with any new platform. There is an initial development cost with any new feature. Neither the platform nor the feature existed in an existing Emotiva product, so both must be considered and amortized in the product. Other companies have been working toward this for some time. They also may not have other costs. Oppo has their costs, Denon has their costs, Emotiva has theirs. I'm trying to help people understand why it was (very likely) cost prohibitive for Emotiva to add a particular feature at a particular price point at a particular time. In doing so, I continue to be essentially told I have no idea what I'm talking about, and the armchair QB's call Emotiva "short sighted" and decide things like, eh, I'd pay 50 bucks for it - I think that's what it would have cost. I have zero, none, nada stake/interest in Emotiva. I started my fan site as a central repository of information so people didn't have to wade through the forums to get (hopefully) the latest info on Emotiva's upcoming products. I put a bunch of ads on it hoping to offset some of the hosting costs. I wanted a central spot, so if I was building, I figured, what the heck, why not make it something for everyone, right? |
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Post by DYohn on Apr 23, 2010 10:50:00 GMT -5
I disagree, it's not off-topic, the topic is whether or not Emotiva should have included Ethernet on the UMC-1. What is the point of that? They didn't. Get over it. They have said they will in the XMC-1. :shrug: |
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 23, 2010 10:53:09 GMT -5
Perhaps time to take a chill pill. It's always easy to speculate on how easy something is or is not to design and include in a product. Given the insatiable desire on the part of us... the consumer, the job is never quite finished or done right. I mean, why stop at Ethernet? Why not go with PoE and eliminate the power cord too? And before someone says the power is not enough over PoE... laptops have processors with low-power requirement and they process a lot more than a pre/pro. Bottom line is that we need to remember that it is possible to keep dreaming up features and functionality but this may not always be possible in a single product. Certainly not at the price-point of the UMC. Besides, if it really were as easy as we think, would Emotiva not have included all these things? They do want to make us happy and grow their market share. Other vendors at different higher price-points are finding it tough going and starting to throw in the towel.. Of course that's my 20 cents... FWIW. Somehow, in much simpler words, you seem to have made this pretty clear.  Oh, on the processor / power thing, you have to consider that the low-power processors in laptops are manufactured in much MUCH, logarithmic much higher quantities than those in Pre/Pro's on much, much more advanced process technologies. Hence, lower power with higher processing capabilities. Pre/Pro's don't have to be designed that way, because, well, we're all stuffing IEC320-C13's into them (power cords). |
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 23, 2010 10:54:26 GMT -5
Or maybe some use common sense and feel that if sub-200.00 components can include ethernet capability (think BD live) then it can't be that expensive to implement. Not saying they are right, just that you don't need a EE degree to have an opinion. Others with common sense realize that components are not the only cost of a solution. |
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 23, 2010 10:56:17 GMT -5
I disagree, it's not off-topic, the topic is whether or not Emotiva should have included Ethernet on the UMC-1. What is the point of that? They didn't. Get over it. They have said they will in the XMC-1. :shrug: Don't tell me, tell them. I'm trying to explain the many (possible) reasons why it didn't happen. I'm also making the point that just because there's an RJ-45 plug in the back, doesn't mean that you'll be able to use it to update the firmware (it also doesn't mean you won't). |
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Post by weigle2 on Apr 23, 2010 11:03:54 GMT -5
Quote:I am not an electronic engineer, have no access to existing schematics for the UMC-1, and even if I could, would not post something like what you are requesting Wait, I just found posted on the Forum, the Schematic. So, I'll get right on to redesigning the UMC-1 for Ethernet. www.emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=off&action=display&thread=11066&page=1Please, I'm only posting the above in fun. And Kudos to you sir (Mr. Bauman) for starting a fan site like yours. By doing this, you are essentially doing what we as consumers are asking for. In todays technologically advanced electronics, finding information and making things simpler can only improve a company's profits. Great job on your part, and Emotiva, for going along with what you are doing. Let's call it a draw. But, please Emotiva, make the XMC-1 easier to update, and as user friendly as the UMC-1 is. Weigle2 |
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 23, 2010 11:09:43 GMT -5
Weigle2, I saw that schematic, it's hilarious. See DYohn's comment below, it makes it even funnier! I have agreed a bunch of times, and I agree again, i wish the UMC-1 were easier to update. I'm actually going to continue, for fun, looking into seeing if it can be. I am a bit cautious that the XMC-1 may already be too far down the development line to improve much on this, so, we'll all wait and see. If nothing else, the units after the XMC-1 definitely have Ethernet firmware upgrade in the design spec.
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ratmice
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Post by ratmice on Apr 23, 2010 12:47:49 GMT -5
Or maybe some use common sense and feel that if sub-200.00 components can include ethernet capability (think BD live) then it can't be that expensive to implement. Not saying they are right, just that you don't need a EE degree to have an opinion. Others with common sense realize that components are not the only cost of a solution. The components in my example are the finished products (read BD-live BR player) not the individual parts for ethernet implementation, and as such would have those other costs you mention already rolled in. Obviously the costs of the whole is more than the sum of the parts, but you already knew that, as do I. |
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Post by visiter555 on Apr 23, 2010 14:59:19 GMT -5
I know there are additional complexities involved that is why I specified that it must have been included from the get-go to keep costs down. This is all a what-if scenario at this point, but we are not discussing something that would have run into the hundreds per unit we are talking about a few bucks, perhaps double digits per unit, but probably still less than the current update process has cost Emo. Actually, the cost is in the range of $200+ per unit. Considering that AVRs sell for $200 and full blown PC and Netbooks sell for $200 - $300 I believe that your number is way off. We do building systems with ethernet builtin and are working on new systems with USB builtin. Ethernet costs (chipset and base s/w) from any of the major suppliers are less than $10 for gigabit and only a few $ for 100 MBs and even less in the 10 MBs chipset and base software. If we had to add $200 to each main controller set for ethernet connectivity (again chipset AND base s/w) we would be out of business. We don't sell millions of units per year. We recoup the r&d costs in the few thousand controllers we sell per year. Once you have added to your s/w the integration of the chipset mfg s/w it is done and can be used in future ontroller sets with little additional r&d costs. When you buy the chipset you also buy the base s/w with documented code. You add whatever calls into your main s/w to use the chipset. You add the menu items you need to make those calls. Unless you change chipsets your costs are covered and not at your $200 per unit. |
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Post by fistofsouth on Apr 23, 2010 15:31:05 GMT -5
I agree with fistofsouth that the cost overall of making the UMC-1 upgradeable via Ethernet, would not have been prohibitive if originally planned for from the beginning. On, then, on what do you base your agreement? I agree, it is getting ridiculous. I disagree, it's not off-topic, the topic is whether or not Emotiva should have included Ethernet on the UMC-1. I assume he is basing his agreement on the same common sense I used; one can get any number of network enabled devices for less than $200 so it would probably not cost $200 to add network connectivity if it was planned for from the beginning. It seems that many posters agree with my speculation including an individual, who like myself, is involved in networking. It REALLY is not that hard to implement networking at a low cost in this day and age. Alas I made my point yesterday and said that we would simply need to agree to disagree so I'll walk away now. |
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