Ethernet or no Ethernet - I rest my case!

[sergeantynot]

Apr 22, 2010 18:07:52 GMT -5 fistofsouth said:

Apr 22, 2010 14:26:06 GMT -5 sergeantynot said:

As one member already pointed out, adding ethernet for streaming/update features is cost prohibitive. I can only imagine the cost of reengineering the UMC platform, with the cost of adding update servers to Emo, would be astronomical to the point that the UMC would not be competitive. I would love to see this feature as home theater has matured into a DLNA enviroment. Anyone claiming they don't want ethernet access for DLNA/update purposes is delusional.

Astronomical? As I pointed out NIC cards are cheap particularly when purchased in bulk and grabbing a few old servers to provide updates isn't going to run that high. Granted Network capability would have needed to have been there from the get-go in order to keep costs down, but as someone that works with Networks from end to end (shh I'm at work right now) adding Wi-Fi or Ethernet capability is neither complex nor expensive.

Perhaps $10 per unit, but let us say it would cost $35 even that would have cost Emo less money than the UMC-1s that get returned for updates. Since Emo pays freight both ways for firmware updates, if they charge what they pay for shipping it would cost them $40 to perform one firmware update for one client just in shipping costs. I could get you a NIC card and a beat-up old FTP server for less than $100, just using my own resources and I'm a regular Joe Blow without the benefit of economies of scale that Emotiva and their partners have.

Then start adding in the costs of personnel that Emo is carrying to resolve this issue; programmers, customer service reps, shipping and receiving, honestly I believe the entire Emo family is probably drawn in by all of this. Next add in the cost of holding up assembly in China to update firmware. Then add up the loss in revenue to Emo while all of us wait for our number to come up while the firmware is updated. Then there is the incalculable loss in good will that this is costing Emotiva. Basic emergency/disaster/crisis/incident management indicates that $1 in prevention (the network interface) will eliminate $4 in damage control costs.

I think Big Dan, Lonnie and the entire Emo Family have been doing a good job at damage control and even with a network connection there would still be some of that. I'm not trying to be argumentative or difficult, but I think in hindsight it would have been better and much cheaper for Emotiva and their customers if a Network connection had been included on the UMC-1 from the outset. Again this is all hindsight, I'm rooting for Emotiva and YMMV.

$100 FTP server? I would like to see a link to the vendor with specs, please. Do you actually think implementing a cheap solution like that would work well? You're right, the solution you're providing is a Joe Blowe operation. However, Emotiva is not a Joe Blowe outfit and are competing with well established firms. I'm sure the engineers over at Marantz and Denon are running first-class enterprise pizza boxes. Running a global update server would require a beefier box, something along the lines of a DL580, with 2 needed for failover. Your minimum price for an "enterprise" solution, and not your "Joe Blowe" operation would be closer to $50,000.

$100 FTP server, LOL. You've obviously never stepped foot in an enterprise farm.

[fistofsouth]

Apr 23, 2010 15:54:58 GMT -5 sergeantynot said:

Apr 22, 2010 18:07:52 GMT -5 fistofsouth said:

Astronomical? As I pointed out NIC cards are cheap particularly when purchased in bulk and grabbing a few old servers to provide updates isn't going to run that high. Granted Network capability would have needed to have been there from the get-go in order to keep costs down, but as someone that works with Networks from end to end (shh I'm at work right now) adding Wi-Fi or Ethernet capability is neither complex nor expensive.

Perhaps $10 per unit, but let us say it would cost $35 even that would have cost Emo less money than the UMC-1s that get returned for updates. Since Emo pays freight both ways for firmware updates, if they charge what they pay for shipping it would cost them $40 to perform one firmware update for one client just in shipping costs. I could get you a NIC card and a beat-up old FTP server for less than $100, just using my own resources and I'm a regular Joe Blow without the benefit of economies of scale that Emotiva and their partners have.

Then start adding in the costs of personnel that Emo is carrying to resolve this issue; programmers, customer service reps, shipping and receiving, honestly I believe the entire Emo family is probably drawn in by all of this. Next add in the cost of holding up assembly in China to update firmware. Then add up the loss in revenue to Emo while all of us wait for our number to come up while the firmware is updated. Then there is the incalculable loss in good will that this is costing Emotiva. Basic emergency/disaster/crisis/incident management indicates that $1 in prevention (the network interface) will eliminate $4 in damage control costs.

I think Big Dan, Lonnie and the entire Emo Family have been doing a good job at damage control and even with a network connection there would still be some of that. I'm not trying to be argumentative or difficult, but I think in hindsight it would have been better and much cheaper for Emotiva and their customers if a Network connection had been included on the UMC-1 from the outset. Again this is all hindsight, I'm rooting for Emotiva and YMMV.

$100 FTP server? I would like to see a link to the vendor with specs, please. Do you actually think implementing a cheap solution like that would work well? You're right, the solution you're providing is a Joe Blowe operation. However, Emotiva is not a Joe Blowe outfit and are competing with well established firms. I'm sure the engineers over at Marantz and Denon are running first-class enterprise pizza boxes. Running a global update server would require a beefier box, something along the lines of a DL580, with 2 needed for failover. Your minimum price for an "enterprise" solution, and not your "Joe Blowe" operation would be closer to $50,000.

$100 FTP server, LOL. You've obviously never stepped foot in an enterprise farm.

Any random box can be an FTP server. Take a 10 year old Dell, a 15 year old Mac. It really isn't that hard. I had an old Beige G-3 Mac working as an FTP server for years.

As far as setting foot in an Enterprise Farm goes I am looking at a 30,000 SqFt data center in the window to my right and an 80,000 SqFt data center is just a few rooms away. I've pulled tiles, ran cable and racked and stacked with the best of them for almost two decades. Perhaps you should do some research on just how cheap it is to set up a basic FTP server. By the way what else are outdated servers good for if not to serve as back-end FTP boxes? What do you do with your old boxes?

Oh I forgot to add some cheap FTP suggestions for you:

On them Mac side I know many people have good luck running Transmit , which costs all of $18. If that is too pricey you can always go with cyberduck free is hard to beat. Those are just two examples of FTP software that could be run on any old Mac capable of running OS 10. Say a $25 to $50 iMac.

There are of course numerous options to run FTP on Windows, Linux and UNIX based boxes, but why don't you perform some research of your own. There is no need to run a DL580 for FTP, but even if you were set on that gen five models start around $7K and that's if you have HP pre-configure them for you. I would probably go with a Blade solution like the BL460c, but I'm not a fan of HP or Windows based solutions. I would rather go UNIX, Mac, Solaris almost anything , but MS. We almost never perform maintenance related reboots for those boxes, but the windows machines require them weekly.

P.S. Thanks for the condescension regarding Enterprise Solutions it made me giggle.

[rocky500]

I don't really see the point.
I am extremely happy to update the firmware exactly the way it is.
Especially if it kept the price where it is.
I have read that a few people had problems with updating firmware, which Emotiva did not have themselves.
There seems to be good advice on how to make it happen.
Emotiva went and made a Video to show customers the process. This has helped some where it was not working.
Most have updated the firmware themselves.
Emotiva has offered to do it for others if there unsure for free inc freight.
Too me it is all good.
Some have asked why it did not have a better Remote, HDMI 1.4 etc etc.
Where would the price be then?

[sergeantynot]

Thanks, but no FTP suggestions are needed from you. I'm still waiting for a link to that $100 FTP specs, and not some recycling ideas of 10 year old gear. You're still kidding on that, right? You might want to take some enterprise suggestions on the other hand. You'll need more than a 30,000 sqft datacenter and "years of experience working with the best" to get me interested in your ideas. Unless you can talk about major dark fiber (you'll need to google that) cross-connects across global 250,000 sqft IBXs, then no dice.

Outdated boxes are good for one thing, test environments, or paperweights. Nothing more. From what you're telling me, you're recycling decade old gear into production. Sounds to me like you have some budget constraints. Our SLAs would never dictate that, at least at my firm. I think the oldest box we had lying around was 5 years old, and that was stacked against the wall collecting dust for at least 2 years. What the heck are you doing with 10 year old gear??

Again, we go back to the fact that you're supposed to be rolling out a solution to be competitive with a well established firm, like Denon or Marantz. Remember, we're trying to move away from your original "Joe Blowe" implementation. The stress from external client connects on your $100 FTP server will fry that box in a week, or less.

P.S. Since it took you an hour to edit your original post, I'm guessing you needed to verify your own response. Just thought you'd like additional condescension.

[fistofsouth]

Apr 23, 2010 23:31:30 GMT -5 sergeantynot said:

Thanks, but no FTP suggestions are needed from you. I'm still waiting for a link to that $100 FTP specs, and not some recycling ideas of 10 year old gear. You're still kidding on that, right? You might want to take some enterprise suggestions on the other hand. You'll need more than a 30,000 sqft datacenter and "years of experience working with the best" to get me interested in your ideas. Unless you can talk about major dark fiber (you'll need to google that) cross-connects across global 250,000 sqft IBXs, then no dice.

Outdated boxes are good for one thing, test environments, or paperweights. Nothing more. From what you're telling me, you're recycling decade old gear into production. Sounds to me like you have some budget constraints. Our SLAs would never dictate that, at least at my firm. I think the oldest box we had lying around was 5 years old, and that was stacked against the wall collecting dust for at least 2 years. What the heck are you doing with 10 year old gear??

Again, we go back to the fact that you're supposed to be rolling out a solution to be competitive with a well established firm, like Denon or Marantz. Remember, we're trying to move away from your original "Joe Blowe" implementation. The stress from external client connects on your $100 FTP server will fry that box in a week, or less.

P.S. Since it took you an hour to edit your original post, I'm guessing you needed to verify your own response. Just thought you'd like additional condescension.

Fine you win. I discussed a Joe Blow solution stating how cheap it is, I did provide links and you decided that a mid-level company like Emo has Enterprise needs that require a raised floor facility with all the bells and whistles. I am intimately familiar with Service Level Agreements and no the solution I mentioned would not meet any SLAs that my current company or any I have worked for utilizes. So? Was that the point I was trying to make? I don't think so.

I could care less what you Googled to try and impress our fellow posters; you don't impress me and I have no way of validating any of your claims of expertise any more than you can validate mine. At least the topic I mentioned have something to do with the OPs message and I didn't insult anyone or infer ignorance to do so. Nor did I require a strawman argument to make my point. Just a tip starwman arguments and insulting posters are the hallmarks of a troll. I'm not saying you are one, but if I was one of the Billy Goats Gruff I would be nervous right now.

The truth is a small rack with a couple of boxes and a load balancer would be good enough for what Emo would want to do. That or do what many companies of Emo's size do when they are not in the business of IT; have it hosted.

EDIT: I reserve the right to correct spelling errors five minutes after I post, an hour after I post or whenever the mood strikes me. Again thanks for the condescension it really is sad and funny.

[sergeantynot]

Apr 24, 2010 14:23:58 GMT -5 fistofsouth said:

Apr 23, 2010 23:31:30 GMT -5 sergeantynot said:

Thanks, but no FTP suggestions are needed from you. I'm still waiting for a link to that $100 FTP specs, and not some recycling ideas of 10 year old gear. You're still kidding on that, right? You might want to take some enterprise suggestions on the other hand. You'll need more than a 30,000 sqft datacenter and "years of experience working with the best" to get me interested in your ideas. Unless you can talk about major dark fiber (you'll need to google that) cross-connects across global 250,000 sqft IBXs, then no dice.

Outdated boxes are good for one thing, test environments, or paperweights. Nothing more. From what you're telling me, you're recycling decade old gear into production. Sounds to me like you have some budget constraints. Our SLAs would never dictate that, at least at my firm. I think the oldest box we had lying around was 5 years old, and that was stacked against the wall collecting dust for at least 2 years. What the heck are you doing with 10 year old gear??

Again, we go back to the fact that you're supposed to be rolling out a solution to be competitive with a well established firm, like Denon or Marantz. Remember, we're trying to move away from your original "Joe Blowe" implementation. The stress from external client connects on your $100 FTP server will fry that box in a week, or less.

P.S. Since it took you an hour to edit your original post, I'm guessing you needed to verify your own response. Just thought you'd like additional condescension.

Fine you win. I discussed a Joe Blow solution stating how cheap it is, I did provide links and you decided that a mid-level company like Emo has Enterprise needs that require a raised floor facility with all the bells and whistles. I am intimately familiar with Service Level Agreements and no the solution I mentioned would not meet any SLAs that my current company or any I have worked for utilizes. So? Was that the point I was trying to make? I don't think so.

I could care less what you Googled to try and impress our fellow posters; you don't impress me and I have no way of validating any of your claims of expertise any more than you can validate mine. At least the topic I mentioned have something to do with the OPs message and I didn't insult anyone or infer ignorance to do so. Nor did I require a strawman argument to make my point. Just a tip starwman arguments and insulting posters are the hallmarks of a troll. I'm not saying you are one, but if I was one of the Billy Goats Gruff I would be nervous right now.

The truth is a small rack with a couple of boxes and a load balancer would be good enough for what Emo would want to do. That or do what many companies of Emo's size do when they are not in the business of IT; have it hosted.

EDIT: I reserve the right to correct spelling errors five minutes after I post, an hour after I post or whenever the mood strikes me. Again thanks for the condescension it really is sad and funny.

Sorry friend, I'm not the blowhard that feels the need to bring up "been working with the best for 20 years" and "datacenters are right next to me". Perhaps those are the blowhards that feel the need to validate their expertise by bringing up useless info as such. Statements like those might impress the "trolls" that have no idea what we're talking about, and use google to their aid. But having worked with "server monkeys" from around the globe, I'll be the first to admit that the thankless job (that it is) is not that illustrious.

[fistofsouth]

Apr 24, 2010 15:08:16 GMT -5 sergeantynot said:

Sorry friend, I'm not the blowhard that feels the need to bring up "been working with the best for 20 years" and "datacenters are right next to me". Perhaps those are the blowhards that feel the need to validate their expertise by bringing up useless info as such. Statements like those might impress the "trolls" that have no idea what we're talking about, and use google to their aid. But having worked with "server monkeys" from around the globe, I'll be the first to admit that the thankless job (that it is) is not that illustrious.

That's right friend you are just the blowhard that said I had never been in a server farm, thus necessitating my statement. I never questioned your knowledge or expertise; you questioned mine. See how that works? There was never any need to discuss Dark Fibre, MPLS, SLAs or any of the rest beyond the fact that you were condescending (a violation of the TOS) and I always deal with issues directly.

Neither the solution I offered (shoestring) nor the suggestion you had (Enterprise) is appropriate for a company like Emo and if you do know the business then you know that to be true. I was simply illustrating that FTP could be set up by almost anyone on these boards for a few bucks and some old equipment. I'm still trying to ascertain why you felt your comments were needed, but you felt compelled so here we are.

Ah yes server Monkeys. Incident Management is my forte these days, but I still lay cable and rack and stack because I work odd hours (which I love), I know how to do it and I am a stockholder.

Having said all of that we have both strayed quite a bit from issues that are cogent to this discussion. Thus if you want to continue to impress me with your vast knowledge it should be done via PM.

[Spiky]

Server farms notwithstanding (although also an issue for the firmware automation), comparing the R&D cost of a firm that has never before implemented a prepro with ethernet to someone like Samsung today, that has been making ethernet-capable products for many years is just silly. Not to mention the sheer volume difference between the companies. Maybe Emo could license it from Denon for $25/unit for the first 100000 units! (true unit cost dependent on actual volume, of course)

Ooh, or maybe Emo could've put one of those BD players right inside the UMC-1 just for the ethernet. Sure, it would add a U to the height, but then everyone would be happy. (except those that needed the 2U chassis)