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Post by thepcguy on Aug 11, 2010 19:08:47 GMT -5
I already know you've decided on this my friend. I'm here just to present the other side of the coin.  Happy listening! Well, for the others who might browse and find this thread interesting, here's more food for thought: www.nousaine.com/About wires and Blind Testing: my experience resembles that of Mr. B's in the article... www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Wired%20Wisdom.pdf
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Post by monkumonku on Oct 21, 2010 15:57:51 GMT -5
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hemster
Global Moderator 
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,950
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Post by hemster on Oct 21, 2010 16:33:32 GMT -5
Thanks monkumonku. Excellent read. I've bookmarked that one.. |
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Pauly
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 5,237
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Post by Pauly on Oct 21, 2010 18:32:54 GMT -5
"The cheapest Pioneer amp was perfectly capable of outperforming the more expensive amps and it was ‘striking similar to the Levinson‘."
Boy, that will set a lot of folks on fire lol.
I love this kind of discussion, even though it causes more arguments than anything else among us crazy audiophile nuts lol. Thanks again monku, that is a great read.
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Post by thepcguy on Oct 21, 2010 18:51:00 GMT -5
That link by Monku shows you how easy it is to do a DIY blind testing ;D  |
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Post by bearfan51 on Dec 25, 2010 12:06:07 GMT -5
That link by Monku shows you how easy it is to do a DIY blind testing ;D  That must have been one heck of a large sweet spot. Seriously.  If their methodology was to sit that far off axis, it's no wonder they couldn't determine a difference. But if it's how you listen to, and enjoy music, have at it. I won't even comment on the highly reflective floor surface, or the untreated back wall, either. But I'm sure they found the results significant...... |
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Post by thepcguy on Jan 6, 2011 18:57:01 GMT -5
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kml
Sensei
King o' lamp cord
Posts: 235
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Post by kml on Jan 6, 2011 20:10:36 GMT -5
What's the point of buying a few feet of fancy audiophile grade cables when every single recording has been ruined by the miles and miles of plain old regular cable used during the recording and mastering?
makes me want to cry...
cheers
ken
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2011 20:55:16 GMT -5
BitsAndBytes - in order for you to conduct a *fair* test, you must not know which cable is being used during your evaluation. Try you test again, and this time really use a blindfold and have a friend swap out the wires without telling you which one is being used. Do this about 20 times and see how well you fare...
-RW-
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2011 15:39:46 GMT -5
There are plenty of real things in audio to spend money on, such as speakers. As for differences between speaker wire and RCA cables, it is entirely illusory. People do like to own something that looks and feels like it's "quality" and will spend a lot of money on such things if they have it. Spending a lot of money on something is a great motivator to find justification for. The placebo effect is very strong with hearing as its very easy to hear what we expect. Its up to you though to decide if you are going to put a lot of money into wire that looks good rather than things that actually make a difference. I use 12 g closeout speaker wire and am certain that I don't have the money to spend on wire that looks nice.
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Post by bearfan51 on Jan 12, 2011 0:59:37 GMT -5
Simple question to you, since you are fixated on these procedures: Do you personally see ANYTHING wrong with their method/setup? If so, what? And if not, what are they doing correctly? Another question, have you ever heard subtle differences in any of your testing, if so, what was it? |
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Post by thepcguy on Jan 12, 2011 13:53:10 GMT -5
I'm also confused. If such a large sample is needed for any kind of real statistical conclusion, how is blind testing considered valid for audio testing? It was never used when stereo was originally developed and tested. I also believe that blind testers have not eliminated their biases. Most of them that I have talked to, don't believe any substantial differences in sound exist between cables/amps/transports/cd players, etc......I personally made a believer out of two people, using an ERC-1 over a very decent older Yamaha, that neither believed would be a significant difference. Frankly, I wasn't sure there would be one either. We didn't need to be blinded to hear a very distinct difference. LMAOSHMSFOAIDMT! You didn't even read the article. The guy, I believe, is on your side! ;D Mr. Mandark, why all these questions? why bother? you don't need to be blinded, right? The very same questions you're asking can be asked of you too.  ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by bearfan51 on Jan 12, 2011 15:19:43 GMT -5
LMAOSHMSFOAIDMT! You didn't even read the article. The guy, I believe, is on your side! ;D Mr. Mandark, why all these questions? why bother? you don't need to be blinded, right? The very same questions you're asking can be asked of you too. ;D ;D ;D Yes, I did read the article, did you? And again, you present something as factual and accurate information, but cannot/will not explain details of the information. Generally, in a civil, adult discussion where two parties do not see eye to eye, they ask questions of the other in an attempt to gain understanding of how they arrived at their particular viewpoint. The questioning party can then either agree, or present why they think the other is incorrect. I've asked several questions of you in a genuine interest of possibly learning from your experiences. In reply, you post no thoughts, or experiences of your own, only more links to the work, experiences, and opinion/conclusions of others. I've come to the conclusion (and I hope I'm wrong here) that you have been simply parroting what you read on the internet, and have no thoughts to claim as your own on this subject. If I were in that situation, I wouldn't keep pushing people to do something I haven't done myself. Maybe that's just me..... Again, do you see anything wrong with the way those tests were administered, that could affect the outcome? If not, I guess we're done here. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 15:34:57 GMT -5
My uncle is a multi millionaire and when i see his home theater, i have to change my pants! Why? because he has some of the most exotic speakers and amps. The last time i was over there he had some Mark Levinson monos. 7 of them!!! Can't remember exactly what speakers he had maybe they were Dynaudio??
To get to my point. He told me over the years he has used cheap cables and he has used expensive cables. He personally told me "I have not heard a difference at all". I asked him "why do you buy the expensive ones then". He said "because i can" he giggled while saying that.
I personally believe a cable can only be so good. A cable that has its ends taped together with duct tape will not be a very good cable but a well made cable is a well made cable. Beyond that, nothing, absolutely nothing improves!!!!!!
I saw that MIT is selling a pair of interconnects for $39,999. All i can say is WOW
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Post by thepcguy on Jan 12, 2011 15:49:48 GMT -5
Mr. Mandark,
I can't tell you how they did those tests. "Read" the links to find out, i guess? Me? I've already answered your question before. How can i 'parrot' what i've read when everything in everybody's setup is different. Yours is different than mine. maybe your environment is perfect and the 'old' Yamaha you used as an example of your testing is good enough. You complain that BLIND testing is flawed. Why not develop one? At your place, your own environment, your own specifications, you run the show. The only thing I ask is that you and your test subjects (your buddies), the listeners, to NOT know and not see. If you can not do that, then yeah, we're done.
Oh, by the way, my friends and i started blind testing (in our own homes) waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy before the internet age. Yeah, i know i'm old but i'm happy (Neil Young ;D). It's easy. The only rule is to NOT see, NOT know.
I don't know when parrots (the birds) started their existence on earth either. ;D
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Post by bearfan51 on Jan 12, 2011 18:22:59 GMT -5
Mr. Mandark, I can't tell you how they did those tests. "Read" the links to find out, i guess? Me? I've already answered your question before. How can i 'parrot' what i've read when everything in everybody's setup is different. Yours is different than mine. maybe your environment is perfect and the 'old' Yamaha you used as an example of your testing is good enough. You complain that BLIND testing is flawed. Why not develop one? At your place, your own environment, your own specifications, you run the show. The only thing I ask is that you and your test subjects (your buddies), the listeners, to NOT know and not see. If you can not do that, then yeah, we're done. Oh, by the way, my friends and i started blind testing (in our own homes) waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy before the internet age. Yeah, i know i'm old but i'm happy (Neil Young ;D). It's easy. The only rule is to NOT see, NOT know. I don't know when parrots (the birds) started their existence on earth either. ;D Ok, my fault for taking the bait. Enjoy not knowing. |
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Post by thepcguy on Jan 12, 2011 18:42:59 GMT -5
All I know, is that since I've been upgrading my cables, I have fewer and fewer bad recordings.....lots more of them image to the degree that is seems some sounds are coming from my surround speakers, except that I'm running in 2 channel.  after this comment, you've lost me already. ;D ;D ;D but i digress, this thread is a stickie after all. |
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Post by thepcguy on Jan 13, 2011 15:53:47 GMT -5
Finally, a Company speaks the truth: www.aperionaudio.com/aperionu/choose_speaker-wiring.aspxSo what’s the deal with all the different kinds of speaker wire?There isn’t a more controversial topic in the world of audio. In one corner, you have the true believers asking incredulously: “What do you mean you can’t hear the difference? There must be something wrong with your ears.” In the other corner you have an equally emotional response: “Stop it! There IS no difference”. Meanwhile, most audio equipment makers, fearful of offending their dealers who make a lot of cold hard cash selling speaker cables, remain mute. We aren’t compromised by such concerns, so we’re going to give it to you straight. This controversy itself is a little hard to understand, considering that it has been so thoroughly researched with scientific studies, precise measurements and double-blind listening tests. Especially since the overwhelming evidence has all come down on one side. The results? People can’t actually hear any difference as long as they follow some simple best practices. So why does the cabling industry exist? That’s pretty simple: It’s phenomenally profitable. It’s definitely in their best interest to make you believe that their magical cables sound better. It’s a bitter pill to swallow, but no amount of pseudo-scientific features like oxygen-free copper, skin effect, vacuums, dielectric biasing, or cable resonance make any difference at all. A $50 spool of 12-gauge zip-cord will perform like a $15,000 run of space-age laser wire. If you need a shoulder to cry on or a buddy to talk to, we’re here for you.  If you know a thing or two about electrical theory, you might be curious why a wire’s resistance even makes a difference. Why wouldn’t it just attenuate the speaker’s output a little bit? The reason is that most speakers have impedance that fluctuates greatly with frequency. The amount that wire attenuates a speaker’s output depends on its resistance compared to the speaker’s. Whatever resistance the wire has will be relatively greater at 200 Hz (for the speaker represented by the graph to the left) than it will at 2000 Hz. The result is that a speaker’s frequency response will start to morph into its impedance response as the resistance placed in-line (like speaker wire) increases. If you have a speaker with a flatter impedance response – and some speakers do have much flatter impedances than others – then the resistance of the speaker wire becomes increasingly unimportant. Isn’t science wonderful? |
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 13, 2011 15:56:55 GMT -5
Finally, a Company speaks the truth: www.aperionaudio.com/aperionu/choose_speaker-wiring.aspxSo what’s the deal with all the different kinds of speaker wire?There isn’t a more controversial topic in the world of audio. In one corner, you have the true believers asking incredulously: “What do you mean you can’t hear the difference? There must be something wrong with your ears.” In the other corner you have an equally emotional response: “Stop it! There IS no difference”. Meanwhile, most audio equipment makers, fearful of offending their dealers who make a lot of cold hard cash selling speaker cables, remain mute. We aren’t compromised by such concerns, so we’re going to give it to you straight. This controversy itself is a little hard to understand, considering that it has been so thoroughly researched with scientific studies, precise measurements and double-blind listening tests. Especially since the overwhelming evidence has all come down on one side. The results? People can’t actually hear any difference as long as they follow some simple best practices. So why does the cabling industry exist? That’s pretty simple: It’s phenomenally profitable. It’s definitely in their best interest to make you believe that their magical cables sound better. It’s a bitter pill to swallow, but no amount of pseudo-scientific features like oxygen-free copper, skin effect, vacuums, dielectric biasing, or cable resonance make any difference at all. A $50 spool of 12-gauge zip-cord will perform like a $15,000 run of space-age laser wire. If you need a shoulder to cry on or a buddy to talk to, we’re here for you. Well that's true as long as you have the little arrows pointing the correct way. ;D |
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Post by geebo on Jan 13, 2011 17:07:50 GMT -5
Finally, a Company speaks the truth: www.aperionaudio.com/aperionu/choose_speaker-wiring.aspxSo what’s the deal with all the different kinds of speaker wire?There isn’t a more controversial topic in the world of audio. In one corner, you have the true believers asking incredulously: “What do you mean you can’t hear the difference? There must be something wrong with your ears.” In the other corner you have an equally emotional response: “Stop it! There IS no difference”. Meanwhile, most audio equipment makers, fearful of offending their dealers who make a lot of cold hard cash selling speaker cables, remain mute. We aren’t compromised by such concerns, so we’re going to give it to you straight. This controversy itself is a little hard to understand, considering that it has been so thoroughly researched with scientific studies, precise measurements and double-blind listening tests. Especially since the overwhelming evidence has all come down on one side. The results? People can’t actually hear any difference as long as they follow some simple best practices. So why does the cabling industry exist? That’s pretty simple: It’s phenomenally profitable. It’s definitely in their best interest to make you believe that their magical cables sound better. It’s a bitter pill to swallow, but no amount of pseudo-scientific features like oxygen-free copper, skin effect, vacuums, dielectric biasing, or cable resonance make any difference at all. A $50 spool of 12-gauge zip-cord will perform like a $15,000 run of space-age laser wire. If you need a shoulder to cry on or a buddy to talk to, we’re here for you. Well that's true as long as you have the little arrows pointing the correct way. ;D And ten different types of wire in your deca-wiring arrangement each optimized for a different frequency. Not to mention the order in which the banana plugs are stacked. ;D |
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