XDA-1 & HDCD???

[jhoak]

Was there ever a final "official" determination on how the XDA-1 handles HDCDs?

[roadrunner]

Dec 25, 2010 8:31:58 GMT -5 jhoak said:

Was there ever a final "official" determination on how the XDA-1 handles HDCDs?

I don't know what you are wanting to know??? The XDA-1 uses a DAC that natively supports HDCD encoding, if that happens to be your question. The ERC-1 uses the exact DAC as the XDA-1 and it handles HDCD encoded media beautifully.

[edrummereasye]

I think the question was, is that feature supported in the XDA-1 implementation? The DAC may support it, but that doesn't mean that the necessary 'hooks' were implemented to take advantage of that. I haven't tested it myself, and I would have to do so from a FLAC+cue rip...moreover, how would one know if one was getting the 'HDCD sound', or just the analog version of the 16-bit Redbook encoding?

[srb]

CD players and receivers that I have owned that had HDCD decoding had an HDCD indicator in the display. Not sure how that might be indicated in the XDA-1 display which is alphanumeric and doesn't appear to have additional addressable legends.

Steve

[charlie7]

I can report that nothing appears on the XDA-1 display when a HDCD is played. The HDCD indicator on the CD player works as it normally does.

I see nothing in the XDA-1 manual that specifies anything regarding HDCD playback.

My ears tell me the XDA-1 is playing my HDCDs just fine but other than that I have no way to verify this.

Charlie

[NorthStar]

It's very easy to find out; just remove the top cover and look inside for the Pacific Microsonics chip.
That would be the PMD-100 or 200 (more likely the PMD-200 Digital Filter/HDCD Decoder ASIC).
It should be near the DACs (usually but not always). It's a fair size IC chip too.

It could also be the PMD-100 chip like this one:

[edrummereasye]

Dec 30, 2010 23:00:05 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

It's very easy to find out; just remove the top cover and look inside for the Pacific Microsonics chip.
That would be the PMD-100 or 200 (more likely the PMD-200 Digital Filter/HDCD Decoder ASIC).
It should be near the DACs (usually but not always). It's a fair size IC chip too.

It could also be the PMD-100 chip like this one:

Well....given the gi-hugeous HDCD logo on that chip, I suppose it would seem pointless to have it in there and not implement HDCD decoding...but then, what do I know? Could be other reasons for including it. I have to think though, that if the XDA-1 did HDCD decoding, Emotiva would've mentioned that by now, and there'd be an indicator light. The silence speaks volumes, and the darkness is...uh, dark. I'd like to believe as much as anyone, half my collection is Grateful Dead/Furthur (ohmygod 5 shows at the Tower in March) and Neil Young, two of the biggest supporters of HDCD...but I just don't think it's there, y'all. I'd lovelovelove to be wrong...

but you know what, either way, the XDA-1 to UMC-1 combo sounds freaking awesome to me...and I don't even have my Xonar running at the moment, going motherboard Realtek 88x I have coax and optical feeds, also feeding USB at 96/24, and I'll tell you what...any way I do it...the UMC alone impressed me...the XDA feeding it just blows my mind...can't wait to put my Mirage's into the setup, and see what the XMC-1 has in store...

Last Furthur show I was at was Reading, I was supposed to go to Baltimore and didn't...but when I put in the soundboard, I feel like I'm there again. And that's all I've got until March, but you know what...I think I'll make it...just barely...but I couldn't do it at all with lesser equipment =)

[NorthStar]

You do need that HDCD light that tells you it is processing/decoding though.
Or the letters [HDCD] illuminated in the front panel display.

[Deleted]

Dec 25, 2010 23:01:33 GMT -5 roadrunner said:

Dec 25, 2010 8:31:58 GMT -5 jhoak said:

Was there ever a final "official" determination on how the XDA-1 handles HDCDs?

I don't know what you are wanting to know??? The XDA-1 uses a DAC that natively supports HDCD encoding, if that happens to be your question. The ERC-1 uses the exact DAC as the XDA-1 and it handles HDCD encoded media beautifully.

I think that Roadrunner was saying that the XDA-1 has the AD1955 which supports HDCD.

Here is a quote from the PDF file for the Analog Devices AD1955:


"..........PRODUCT OVERVIEW
The AD1955 is a complete high performance single-chip stereo digital
audio playback system. It is comprised of a multibit sigma-delta
modulator, high performance digital interpolation filters, and continuoustime
differential current output DAC section. Other features include an
on-chip clickless stereo attenuator, mute capability, programmed through
an SPI-compatible serial control port. The AD1955 is fully compatible
with all known DVD audio formats including 192kHz as well as 96kHz
sample frequencies and 24-bits. It also is backwards compatible by
supporting 50/15μs digital de-emphasis intended for “redbook” Compact
Discs, as well as de-emphasis at 32kHz and 48kHz sample rate.
The AD1955 has a very flexible serial data input port that allows for
glueless interconnection to a variety of ADCs, DSPs, SACD decoder,
external digital filter, AES/EBU receivers and sample rate converters.
The AD1955 can be configured in Left-justified, I2S, Right-Justified, or
DSP serial port compatible modes. It can support MSB first, twoscompliment
format, 16, 18, 20 and 24 bits in all standard PCM modes.
Also the AD1955 has an interface for SACD playback and an external
digital filter interface for use with an external digital interpolation filter
or HDCD decoder.............................."

[NorthStar]

Yeah but Chuckie without the HDCD chip to go with it, it ain't HDCD at all.
But if the XDA-1 is used in conjunction with the ERC-1, then no sweat, full HDCD resolution.

Most CD players and receivers having the HDCD decoder/filter are usually used in tandem with Burr-Brown DACs (PCM-63P, PCM-1702, PCM-1704, PCM-1791, PCM-1792, PCM-1796...).

But I ain't an expert on that though. ...I'm sure a lot of other DACs are also used with the HDCD chip.

My pre/pro has the BB PCM-1796 DACs, but without the HDCD decoder in it, you need a CD player that has it. Or a separate DAC that has it.
My older Denon receiver (3805) has it, in tandem with BB PCM-1791 DACs. Then any CD player or separate DAC will digitally output the HDCD signal to be processed, filtered, and decoded inside that receiver, only if their digital outputs are not corrupted though! They have to be untouched inside the player, in their original native format.
Two Toshiba players that I own have the AD1955 DACs, but no HDCD chip! But some Toshiba DVD players and also Panasonic DVD players have the HDCD chip inside; but it is not properly implemented digitally! ...Without the requisite 6 dB compensation of dynamic range accentuation. Instead they attenuate the dynamic range by 6 dB.
And you also need a player that does not corrupt its digital output, which not all players do. I got a Pioneer player and also a Panasonic player that do corrupt their digital outputs! ...Vary bad!
They massage the digital signal with some DSP crap!

So, Corruption and Bad Implementation gives you NADA! No real benefits! Or no decoding at all, or missing the required additional 6 dB of dynamic range, integral to the digital output. Many players don't! The ones that do usually cost much more money, as you need the proper additional electronic parts.
...I think? What do you guys think?

[rockguitar]

Dec 30, 2010 22:49:40 GMT -5 charlie7 said:

I can report that nothing appears on the XDA-1 display when a HDCD is played. The HDCD indicator on the CD player works as it normally does.

I see nothing in the XDA-1 manual that specifies anything regarding HDCD playback.

My ears tell me the XDA-1 is playing my HDCDs just fine but other than that I have no way to verify this.

Charlie

LordoftheRingsEE has posted some good info on HDCD.

To put it simply, the source CD or DVD or PC has to feed all the bits to the DAC. This is called bit perfect or bit transparent. Then the DAC itself must have the HDCD filter/decoder built in.

In the XDA-1, I am almost completely positive there is no HDCD filter/decoder built in.
HDCD's played back through the XDA or anything else will sound good because they were usually recorded or mastered with higher quality to begin with than regular CD's. For example, I have some recordings that were recorded as regular CD's. For the greatest hits compilaton, these recordings were remastered using HDCD and sound much better. However, I've never used an HDCD decoding DAC with that CD but still can hear the substantial difference.

Just as a side note, HRx recordings by Reference Recordings are hi-rez recordings at 176.4 kHz/ 24 bits, with HDCD. In case you didn't know, HDCD was co-invented by Keith Johnson, now of Reference Recordings, and also one of the main men behind the high end company, Spectral. I have a friend with Spectral gear, and his system is truly excellent. One of the best systems I've heard outside of a store.

www.referencerecordings.com/HRx2.asp

Go to the link I've posted and you can find a link to download two free hi-rez recordings to your PC.

[sharkman]

I may be wrong, but I think for my configuration I'm getting HDCD decoding, because my ERC's HDCD indicator lights up as it sends the HDCD encoded data to my XDA which only converts it to analog. At any rate, I can also tell by my ears that my HDCD cds being played are several dbs more dynamic.

Now if I could only figure out a way to connect my Ipod digitally! I don't want to have to buy a Wadia Ipod dock, but I may have to.

[duffda]

Dec 31, 2010 14:03:19 GMT -5 sharkman said:

I may be wrong, but I think for my configuration I'm getting HDCD decoding, because my ERC's HDCD indicator lights up as it sends the HDCD encoded data to my XDA which only converts it to analog. At any rate, I can also tell by my ears that my HDCD cds being played are several dbs more dynamic.

Now if I could only figure out a way to connect my Ipod digitally! I don't want to have to buy a Wadia Ipod dock, but I may have to.

You wouldn't be using the XDA, but High Resolution Technologies is offering the iStreamer. It is a DAC which claims to support both the ipod and ipad.

[cawgijoe]

From Emo Tech Support: I will also e-mail Lonnie for confirmation......

"Hello Claude,

Thank you for your interest in Emotiva. The XDA does support and decode HDCD. We have tested this at our facility and it works perfectly. I hope this helps.

Best Regards,



Emotiva Support"

[jhoak]

OK... That's what I call an "official" determination.

Thanks all...

[NorthStar]

Dec 31, 2010 14:03:19 GMT -5 sharkman said:

I may be wrong, but I think for my configuration I'm getting HDCD decoding, because my ERC's HDCD indicator lights up as it sends the HDCD encoded data to my XDA which only converts it to analog. At any rate, I can also tell by my ears that my HDCD cds being played are several dbs more dynamic.

Now if I could only figure out a way to connect my Ipod digitally! I don't want to have to buy a Wadia Ipod dock, but I may have to.

You are certainly correct, you are listening to the HDCD encoded disc and decoded by your ERC-1 CD player. And from there the audio signal is already decoded when it reaches the XDA-1 DAC.
I don't know though how the ERC-1 digitally output that signal.
All I know is that from my own Rotel 971 CD player that the digital audio signal is not compensated in it's full dynamic range glory. But it is from the 991 if I recall correctly, as it has the required digital filter reconstruction to fully give that additional 6 dB of dynamic range. I cannot exactly remember how it works but can be easily find online. And it cost more money of course to be properly implemented. Several players don't. Only the more expensive ones do and not always. It ain't the end of the world but it ain't the proper way either as you lose some of the HDCD dynamic range benefit.
When I use the digital coaxial out of my 971 and connect it to ny Denon receiver which also have the HDCD internal decoder chip, I still prefer the sound from the analog connection and the disc decoded inside my Rotel CD player. It is much more solid, detailed, open, tight bass, and just more there. My 3805 is reserved, closed in, shy, muffled, a curtain over its sound, a bloated bass that you can tell Denon is trying to smooth things out. Some Marantz products too sound Euphonic, with some kind of reverb . Maybe some people like this type of sound, but not me cause after a while you know it ain't the real thing.
What is neutrality, dryness? Simply words used by some people to describe their own personal perception.
Neutral for me shouldn't be dry or wet, but just right!
I don't thing I ever heard neutrality in my life. Semblance of it yeah, but trhat's where it stops bcause I don't have access to all the gears out there.

But because my Denon has the decoder too, I can check easily with any CD, DVD, HD DVD or BD player which one is corrupting its digital output. It is a true way to verify those facts.
And that's how I learned to hate Pioneer and Panasonic players from that aspect. I'm just taliking about some particular models here, but also a bad malpractice from those companies about their players, and trying to manipulate the digital out signal so they can tweak it in order to attract people with an innacurate sound (a fabricated one).
But this is the Audio business and Euphony sells more than Accuracy.

[ddhd]

Well the question then is:

1. Why would there NOT be an indicator light designating an HDCD decoded signal?
2. Why would there NOT be anything written about this product supporting HDCD in the owners manual recently posted OR on the website.

[cawgijoe]

Jan 1, 2011 10:10:42 GMT -5 ddhd said:

Well the question then is:

1. Why would there NOT be an indicator light designating an HDCD decoded signal?
2. Why would there NOT be anything written about this product supporting HDCD in the owners manual recently posted OR on the website.

I'm waiting for an answer from Lonnie......not that I don't trust customer support......on what the XDA-1 does with HDCD.

The indicator really does not indicate much.......doesn't mean that HDCD is not decoded.......the manual is still not final........not everything seems to be posted on the Emo site........

[sharkman]

Jan 1, 2011 10:10:42 GMT -5 ddhd said:

Well the question then is:

1. Why would there NOT be an indicator light designating an HDCD decoded signal?
2. Why would there NOT be anything written about this product supporting HDCD in the owners manual recently posted OR on the website.

Because the decoding is done in the process where the data is read by the laser, in my case, the ERC-1. The XDA would simply convert the already HDCD decoded data to analog. It is very likely that the XDA does not decode HDCD by itself.

As for the manual, the last I heard it was not finalized yet, I could be behind the times on that.

[rockguitar]

Jan 1, 2011 13:10:54 GMT -5 sharkman said:

Jan 1, 2011 10:10:42 GMT -5 ddhd said:

Well the question then is:

1. Why would there NOT be an indicator light designating an HDCD decoded signal?
2. Why would there NOT be anything written about this product supporting HDCD in the owners manual recently posted OR on the website.

Because the decoding is done in the process where the data is read by the laser, in my case, the ERC-1. The XDA would simply convert the already HDCD decoded data to analog. It is very likely that the XDA does not decode HDCD by itself.

As for the manual, the last I heard it was not finalized yet, I could be behind the times on that.

It was always my understanding that the DAC would do the decoding of the HDCD and that all the transport had to do was to pass the HDCD flag to the DAC. So I would think that the ERC-1 recognizes that it is an HDCD, but the actual decoding would be at the DAC.