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Post by geebo on Jan 2, 2011 0:07:28 GMT -5
After I got the Emo Ultra 12, I decided I wasn't going to try to hook up both it and my old sub at the same time. I figured hooking up a sealed 12 with a ported 10 would just be a waste of time. Well, I got bored and decided to try it out just for kicks. I'm glad I did. Here is a pic from my previous post with the Emo and Polk operating on their own. Below it is a shot of both together after fooling around with REW for a few hours.   I was able to get this curve using only 4 filters of the BFD vs 7 on the Emo alone. Notice that little dip at 47Hz that I had trouble with is totally gone. I wound up setting the subwoofer level in the UMC-1 to 3db lower that previous which I guess means my subs are operating at half the power than the Ultra 12 alone. There is a definite improvement using both. I listened to Echoes from David Gilmour - Remember That Night in DTS Master Audio and was immediately sold on the pairing. Anyway, just thought I'd pass this along FWIW to anyone. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2011 0:11:58 GMT -5
Awesome man  I have never used a eq on a sub. What do you use and how do you make those graphs? |
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Post by geebo on Jan 2, 2011 0:24:39 GMT -5
Awesome man I have never used a eq on a sub. What do you use and how do you make those graphs? Its a free program called REW (room eq wizard) www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/All you need to run it is a computer with a sound card (external if using a laptop) and an SPL (I use the Radio Shack model). If you want to EQ, then you'll have to get another piece of equipment. The Behringer Feedback Destroyer can be had for about 50-75 bucks on Ebay. It has two channels of 12 band parametric equalizers. There are other options as well but that one is about the cheapest. Here's what my subs looked like before EQ.  |
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Post by geebo on Jan 2, 2011 20:20:33 GMT -5
Just wanted to add a few more graphs for those who might be interested. The first is a SPL sweep of the two subs by themselves and then both together. Green=Polk DSW Pro 500 Purple=Emo Ultra 12 Red=Both  Not a HUGE difference between the Emo alone and with the Polk. I really expected the Polk to drag it down some. But the room interaction at 47Hz that was present with both subs alone is gone when both are hooked up. More revealing is the waterfall graphs which shows decay times in the 3rd axis. The Emo by itself is first followed by the two subs together. Here there is a marked improvement indicating that the room has a far less influence on overall performance when another sub is added to the mix. I never expected this and at first I wasn't going to even bother. Now I have to wonder what two Ultra 12's would be like... Emo Ultra 12  Emo w/Polk  |
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 2, 2011 21:26:52 GMT -5
Just wanted to add a few more graphs for those who might be interested. The first is a SPL sweep of the two subs by themselves and then both together. Green=Polk DSW Pro 500 Purple=Emo Ultra 12 Red=Both Not a HUGE difference between the Emo alone and with the Polk. I really expected the Polk to drag it down some. But the room interaction at 47Hz that was present with both subs alone is gone when both are hooked up. More revealing is the waterfall graphs which shows decay times in the 3rd axis. The Emo by itself is first followed by the two subs together. Here there is a marked improvement indicating that the room has a far less influence on overall performance when another sub is added to the mix. I never expected this and at first I wasn't going to even bother. Now I have to wonder what two Ultra 12's would be like... Emo Ultra 12 Emo w/Polk That's quite interesting how each sub on its own exhibits a dip but that is cured by using both of them together.. Did I not tell you to buy two Ultra 12's in the first place? ;D |
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Post by geebo on Jan 2, 2011 21:31:42 GMT -5
Just wanted to add a few more graphs for those who might be interested. The first is a SPL sweep of the two subs by themselves and then both together. That's quite interesting how each sub on its own exhibits a dip but that is cured by using both of them together.. Did I not tell you to buy two Ultra 12's in the first place? ;D Indeed, sir, you did. But I don't think you were forceful enough. The Polk in a totally different room position is the reason for the dip disappearing. I should have run a sweep with just the Emo in each location. Now you've made more work for me...  |
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 2, 2011 21:41:05 GMT -5
That's quite interesting how each sub on its own exhibits a dip but that is cured by using both of them together.. Did I not tell you to buy two Ultra 12's in the first place? ;D Indeed, sir, you did. But I don't think you were forceful enough. Well I didn't want to be Ntrain. ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by geebo on Jan 2, 2011 21:42:11 GMT -5
Finally, a spectrogram which is kind of like a waterfall shown from the top with decay times shown on the vertical scale. Emo U12  Emo with Polk DSW PRO 500  |
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 2, 2011 21:48:35 GMT -5
Finally, a spectrogram which is kind of like a waterfall shown from the top with decay times shown on the vertical scale. Emo U12 Emo with Polk DSW PRO 500 Are you sure all this is legal? |
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Post by geebo on Jan 2, 2011 22:10:26 GMT -5
Are you sure all this is legal? I don't know about that, but I am writing down all setting of both woofers as well as positioning of everything in the room. ;D An interesting note is that I had to set the Polk to 270 degrees out of phase in its new location as compared to the Emo in its spot. I determined that by running EmoQ on each speaker individually just to get the phase info of each. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2011 22:32:04 GMT -5
The Polk in a totally different room position is the reason for the dip disappearing. I should have run a sweep with just the Emo in each location. That's exactly what I was thinking. You've got a lot of work ahead! ;D George, I really appreciate the time and effort you took to post these test results. Your contributions to the Lounge are first class and great for those of us who love objective reviews and anyone considering the Emo subs. The Emo sub has about 5-10dB's output over the Poke sub in the 20-35Hz range. The Emo's 20Hz output is only down about 7dB's from the 60-80Hz range, pretty impressive if I read your graphs correctly. Thank You ;D |
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Post by geebo on Jan 2, 2011 22:42:44 GMT -5
The Polk in a totally different room position is the reason for the dip disappearing. I should have run a sweep with just the Emo in each location. That's exactly what I was thinking. You've got a lot of work ahead! ;D George, I really appreciate the time and effort you took to post these test results. Your contributions to the Lounge are first class and great for those of us who love objective reviews and anyone considering the Emo subs. The Emo sub has about 5-10dB's output over the Poke sub in the 20-35Hz range. The Emo's 20Hz output is only down about 7dB's from the 60-80Hz range, pretty impressive if I read your graphs correctly. Thank You ;D Thanks, Chuckie. I appreciate the comment. But now that I've got them dialed in, I'm afraid to touch them let alone move them around for fear of not getting back to point I'm at now. What surprised me most about pairing them up was the improvement in decay times. I'm thinking one reason might be that since each sub is now operating at half the power they were individually then cone excursion would also be reduced which might also decrease the time it takes for them to stop when called on to do so. But now I want a second Ultra 12. But I also want an Oppo 93 and an XMC and... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2011 23:37:55 GMT -5
Just wanted to add a few more graphs for those who might be interested. The first is a SPL sweep of the two subs by themselves and then both together. Green=Polk DSW Pro 500 Purple=Emo Ultra 12 Red=Both Not a HUGE difference between the Emo alone and with the Polk. I really expected the Polk to drag it down some. But the room interaction at 47Hz that was present with both subs alone is gone when both are hooked up. More revealing is the waterfall graphs which shows decay times in the 3rd axis. The Emo by itself is first followed by the two subs together. Here there is a marked improvement indicating that the room has a far less influence on overall performance when another sub is added to the mix. I never expected this and at first I wasn't going to even bother. Now I have to wonder what two Ultra 12's would be like... Emo Ultra 12 Emo w/Polk It's also looks like your getting a bit of cancellation with the duals. Try messing with the phase and run them again a few times to find what is best. You look to be about +-7 or 8 throughout the sweep until roll off. A BFD or sms or something could easy make that +-1-2 from the looks for your graph. It's a pretty darn good graph though. I've seen some doozies LOL |
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Post by geebo on Jan 2, 2011 23:50:57 GMT -5
[It's also looks like your getting a bit of cancellation with the duals. Try messing with the phase and run them again a few times to find what is best. You look to be about +-7 or 8 throughout the sweep until roll off. A BFD or sms or something could easy make that +-1-2 from the looks for your graph. It's a pretty darn good graph though. I've seen some doozies LOL I am using a BFD now. If you are talking about the slope from 80 down to 30, that is intentional and the result of my "house" curve being applied. As you said, I could have gotten it flatter although that sounds a bit thin to my liking. I also played with the phaseing of each woofer by running EmoQ on each just to check for that. I found the Emo to be correct at 0 degrees and the Polk measured in phase at 270 degrees which is funny because when it was in the same position as the Emo is now, EmoQ found 0 degrees to be the proper setting for it as well. I also verified the two together by running both while running sweeps and changing the phase of the Polk. With the Polk at 270, the output accross the board was greater. I assume that would mean that they were in phase with each other. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2011 14:47:02 GMT -5
Then it looks like they would be in phase. I'm not talking about your house cure but rather the seperation in the graphs. Either you have a few nulls not present with one sub or something else is going on. With your BFD, there is no reason you can't get a very flat response in the room.
A second ultra sub would give you a good boost in performance to what you currently have with the second polk.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2011 14:55:05 GMT -5
I actually set my system with a hump at around +3db @20hz. It makes for a bit lower roll off of the sealed subs but I leave the IB HP set @ 15. So i get a good 3-4 db's greater output into the higher teens, where as normally the sealed subs would drop like rocks after 25hz or so with no eq. But I'm also using a butterworth 48 for HP and LP to get a more gradual roll off on the top and bottom end. That seem to work the best with my JTR's.
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Post by geebo on Jan 3, 2011 14:55:56 GMT -5
Did you try running sweeps and checking max spl at whatever volume you have it set at, then ajust the phase a bit each time on one of the subs to see if there are any gains to be had. If you have a bfd, there is no reason you couldn't have am almost perfectly flat response in that room. For me audyseey will not phase in my subs properly and I have to do it manually. It's just something to try, it may yield better results, may not do anything. I've just learnt over the years to try everything because more often that not, ajustments can be made. A second ultra sub would give you a good boost in performance to what you currently have with the second polk. Yes, after running EmoQ on each sub individually and getting phase info (0 for Emo, 270 for Polk) I then ran a sweep of both subs together and changed the Polk from 0 to 90 to 180 to 270 and found the greatest output coming with the Polk at 270 which verifies what EmoQ reported. Is this what you meant? The resulting curve uses only 4 filters and like I indicated, the upward slope from 80 down to 30 is intentional. And you are correct, I could probably use a few more filters and get it flatter but the goal from what I'v read is to use as few as possible and getting it straighter (still with the intentional slope) probably wouldn't be audible. The author of REW told me they look very good, so I'm good with that. Thanks, George |
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NorthStar
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"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Jan 3, 2011 15:23:40 GMT -5
Wow guys you are getting me into this stuff fo sur! Cool!  As in aside, there is a CD by Sting called "A brand New Day", and the first song "A Thousand Years" has some good low bass surprises in it (check the first 37 seconds). And the entire CD is very well recorded, no doubt because of Sting's perfectionism at perfect audio quality and bass as well. {And check the last 59 seconds of the last song.} I don't know if you guys have that CD, but if you don't I highly recommend it. But get the SACD if you have an SACD player.  * Two subs are much better than just one, that is a fact! And if some people are using only one in their setup, the biggest improvement they can make to their system is adding another one; even if it's not the exactly same one (but the same is better). Also, I totally agree that you need to EQ them just like George here is doing, and there are also other methods to EQ them, but George's method is very inexpensive and look at what he was able to achieve! Quite remarkable George! ** Also you probably remember that I was also one to recommend you that you buy two; but I did not insist because I knew that you already had your Polk one, and that even if it's not the same, you'd still gain some very beneficial improvement. *** And N8DOGG, man with all those subs of yours I can only imagine!  ...Heaven on Earth! |
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Post by geebo on Jan 3, 2011 16:13:09 GMT -5
Then it looks like they would be in phase. I'm not talking about your house cure but rather the seperation in the graphs. Either you have a few nulls not present with one sub or something else is going on. With your BFD, there is no reason you can't get a very flat response in the room. A second ultra sub would give you a good boost in performance to what you currently have with the second polk. Not sure I follow...If you are talking about the graph with 3 traces, those are overlays of each sub by itself which are the ones with that dip at 47Hz and the results of both together with little to no dip at 47Hz. George. |
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Post by geebo on Jan 3, 2011 16:17:41 GMT -5
Wow guys you are getting me into this stuff fo sur! Cool! As in aside, there is a CD by Sting called "A brand New Day", and the first song "A Thousand Years" has some good low bass surprises in it (check the first 37 seconds). And the entire CD is very well recorded, no doubt because of Sting's perfectionism at perfect audio quality and bass as well. {And check the last 59 seconds of the last song.} I don't know if you guys have that CD, but if you don't I highly recommend it. But get the SACD if you have an SACD player. * Two subs are much better than just one, that is a fact! And if some people are using only one in their setup, the biggest improvement they can make to their system is adding another one; even if it's not the exactly same one (but the same is better). Also, I totally agree that you need to EQ them just like George here is doing, and there are also other methods to EQ them, but George's method is very inexpensive and look at what he was able to achieve! Quite remarkable George! ** Also you probably remember that I was also one to recommend you that you buy two; but I did not insist because I knew that you already had your Polk one, and that even if it's not the same, you'd still gain some very beneficial improvement. *** And N8DOGG, man with all those subs of yours I can only imagine! ...Heaven on Earth! I don't have that CD but I will check into it, thanks. I remember quite well you advising me to get two as did Monku. But you guys just weren't forcefull enough.  So now you both can say "I told you so...nyah nyah." ;D |
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...Heaven on Earth!
