Hooked up my other sub with the Emo Ultra 12

[NorthStar]

I told you! ;D

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2011 16:13:09 GMT -5 geebo said:

Jan 3, 2011 14:47:02 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

Then it looks like they would be in phase. I'm not talking about your house cure but rather the seperation in the graphs. Either you have a few nulls not present with one sub or something else is going on. With your BFD, there is no reason you can't get a very flat response in the room.

A second ultra sub would give you a good boost in performance to what you currently have with the second polk.

Not sure I follow...If you are talking about the graph with 3 traces, those are overlays of each sub by itself which are the ones with that dip at 47Hz and the results of both together with little to no dip at 47Hz.

George.

You should be gaining something more other than smoothing a 47hz bump is what I'm getting at. That bump could be taken care of through Eq, The second sub is actually interfearing with the first one when run together. you shouldn't be loosing SPL from 40db's to 28db's with 2 subs (could be placement, could be phase issues, could be a null that you are getting standing waves and cancellation.
You need to either look at a different placement or just take the second one out and get a matching one and "stack" them or find a better area in the room.

I mean it's easy to do to try out different placements. Not like its a huge sub by any means. You should try out some more spots and take some tests to see if that is optimal placement or not.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2011 15:23:40 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Wow guys you are getting me into this stuff fo sur! Cool!

As in aside, there is a CD by Sting called "A brand New Day", and the first song "A Thousand Years" has some good low bass surprises in it (check the first 37 seconds). And the entire CD is very well recorded, no doubt because of Sting's perfectionism at perfect audio quality and bass as well. {And check the last 59 seconds of the last song.}
I don't know if you guys have that CD, but if you don't I highly recommend it.
But get the SACD if you have an SACD player.



* Two subs are much better than just one, that is a fact!
And if some people are using only one in their setup, the biggest improvement they can make to their system is adding another one; even if it's not the exactly same one (but the same is better).
Also, I totally agree that you need to EQ them just like George here is doing, and there are also other methods to EQ them, but George's method is very inexpensive and look at what he was able to achieve! Quite remarkable George!

** Also you probably remember that I was also one to recommend you that you buy two; but I did not insist because I knew that you already had your Polk one, and that even if it's not the same, you'd still gain some very beneficial improvement.

*** And N8DOGG, man with all those subs of yours I can only imagine! ...Heaven on Earth!

LOL it took me 2 full days of Eq'n and setting up the phases to get everything to play nice with eachother. But IMO the best time I've had with my system. Once my new laptop gets in, I'll post my REW graphs. I got a new mic coming and will have a full testing unit to travel with soon

[geebo]

Jan 3, 2011 18:09:34 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

Jan 3, 2011 16:13:09 GMT -5 geebo said:

Not sure I follow...If you are talking about the graph with 3 traces, those are overlays of each sub by itself which are the ones with that dip at 47Hz and the results of both together with little to no dip at 47Hz.

George.

You should be gaining something more other than smoothing a 47hz bump is what I'm getting at. That bump could be taken care of through Eq, The second sub is actually interfearing with the first one when run together. you shouldn't be loosing SPL from 40db's to 28db's with 2 subs (could be placement, could be phase issues, could be a null that you are getting standing waves and cancellation.
You need to either look at a different placement or just take the second one out and get a matching one and "stack" them or find a better area in the room.

I mean it's easy to do to try out different placements. Not like its a huge sub by any means. You should try out some more spots and take some tests to see if that is optimal placement or not.

I'm looking at the graph with a single red trace which is both subs running simultaneously. I see a total variance of 7.5db from 80 down to 30 which is largely my house curve. I don't know if you looking at that black trace, but that is the meter calibration trace. So I'm having trouble about your reference to "40db's to 28db's with 2 subs". I'm trying to understand your point here, so please bear with me.

George

[NorthStar]

For me the PHASE is the magic word; tough part of any equalization.
And that has a direct relation with positioning of the subs, the speakers and the listeners, plus the room interaction and also each recording!

What I am surprised at George is that your Emo sub is set at 0 degree and your Polk sub at 270 degree!

Did you check with a test disc each sub best integration with your speakers at the crossover point?
About their identical Gain (volume) levels?
Two subs, or three, or four, or more should always be set at the same Phase setting.
But what do I know? Only from personal experience and the best read from the real sub pros!

[geebo]

Jan 3, 2011 18:47:43 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

For me the PHASE is the magic word; tough part of any equalization.
And that has a direct relation with positioning of the subs, the speakers and the listeners, plus the room interaction and also each recording!

What I am surprised at George is that your Emo sub is set at 0 degree and your Polk sub at 270 degree!

Did you check with a test disc each sub best integration with your speakers at the crossover point?
About their identical Gain (volume) levels?
Two subs, or three, or four, or more should always be set at the same Phase setting.
But what do I know? Only from personal experience and the best read from the real sub pros!

Well with EmoQ with the Ultra 12 in its current location i get 0 degrees. With the Polk in the same location, I get 0 degrees. With the Polk in its new location I get 270 degrees from EmoQ before it returns with phase "ok". (which is really only 90 degrees off of 0).

And then I ran sweeps in REW with both subs active with the Emo left at zero and with the Polk in each of the 4 possible settings. When at 270 I get the greatest output accross the board. With others settings of the Polk I got some pretty wierd traces.

And I did set their relative outputs to be the same when playing the test signals for speaker level calibration in the UMC-1. I tested with REW and with each sub on its own, the individual levels were very close with the Polk set to 270 degrees. Of course there were variations in the traces because of diffferent subs in different locations.

The Polk in the new location, does not exhibit that dip at 47Hz that both show when in spot the Emo is now.

Does any of this make sense? I got a headache just proof reading it...

[NorthStar]

Well, first you should balance their levels equally with both set at 0 degree.
Then you can run your tests with both playing and without changing the phase.
Then check the results, but listen more.

As for positions, I suggest in both front corners, or between your front Mains and Center speaker. But if you put them in the Left & Right corners, make sure that the center of the driver is not at the same distance to the side and front wall, or the exact double of the shorter distance. You follow me?

But the Phase should be the same in both subwoofers. You simply cannot make them different!

Base your results more on listening than graphs.

What da ya think N8DOGG? ...Ntrain? ...Eddy? ...Anyone else?

[DYohn]

Jan 3, 2011 19:32:36 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Well, first you should balance their levels equally with both set at 0 degree.
Then you can run your tests with both playing and without changing the phase.
Then check the results, but listen more.

As for positions, I suggest in both front corners, or between your front Mains and Center speaker. But if you put them in the Left & Right corners, make sure that the center of the driver is not at the same distance to the side and front wall, or the exact double of the shorter distance. You follow me?

But the Phase should be the same in both subwoofers. You simply cannot make them different!

Base your results more on listening than graphs.

What da ya think N8DOGG? ...Ntrain? ...Eddy? ...Anyone else?

Excellent advice.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2011 18:26:10 GMT -5 geebo said:

Jan 3, 2011 18:09:34 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

You should be gaining something more other than smoothing a 47hz bump is what I'm getting at. That bump could be taken care of through Eq, The second sub is actually interfearing with the first one when run together. you shouldn't be loosing SPL from 40db's to 28db's with 2 subs (could be placement, could be phase issues, could be a null that you are getting standing waves and cancellation.
You need to either look at a different placement or just take the second one out and get a matching one and "stack" them or find a better area in the room.

I mean it's easy to do to try out different placements. Not like its a huge sub by any means. You should try out some more spots and take some tests to see if that is optimal placement or not.

I'm looking at the graph with a single red trace which is both subs running simultaneously. I see a total variance of 7.5db from 80 down to 30 which is largely my house curve. I don't know if you looking at that black trace, but that is the meter calibration trace. So I'm having trouble about your reference to "40db's to 28db's with 2 subs". I'm trying to understand your point here, so please bear with me.

George

I'm looking at the red and purple spl plot lines. emo sub is running more spl than both subs combined. That shouldn't be, your getting cancellation. That could explain the thin sounding bass you noticed with both running since you're loosing 2-3 db's in the 40 to 28db range.

Bob is right on how to start, it takes time and some experimenting to find whats best for the room. Placement is going to make or break a dual sub setup. From your graphs you have now, and since your using a BFD and can eq, your better off using the 1 emo sub if you can't get them dialed in because you cannot move them (as far as spl is concerned)
You FR is fine, but like i said. given the room's good response, you could have it almost totally flat (which is the goal of eqing to begin with)
I personally will give up a bit in FR to gain what I feel is more useful in my HT which is SPL. You have to kind of take middle ground IMO

[geebo]

Jan 3, 2011 19:35:21 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Jan 3, 2011 19:32:36 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Well, first you should balance their levels equally with both set at 0 degree.
Then you can run your tests with both playing and without changing the phase.
Then check the results, but listen more.

As for positions, I suggest in both front corners, or between your front Mains and Center speaker. But if you put them in the Left & Right corners, make sure that the center of the driver is not at the same distance to the side and front wall, or the exact double of the shorter distance. You follow me?

But the Phase should be the same in both subwoofers. You simply cannot make them different!

Base your results more on listening than graphs.

What da ya think N8DOGG? ...Ntrain? ...Eddy? ...Anyone else?

Excellent advice.

Actually, I did in fact do a little homework before trying dual subs.
And I've read where two subs may have to have the actual phase differ so that apparent phase is the same at the listening position. Lets say I've got position 1 and position 2 with sub A and sub B.

With EmoQ, I get "phase OK" with either sub A or B in position 1 and both phase controls set to 0.
In position 2, EmoQ shows "phase OK" with either sub when set at 270. EmoQ compares the phase to the mains which are crossed at 80Hz. Note that changing the phase of either sub when it is the ONLY one working makes little to no difference in the resulting trace of the region between 20 and 80Hz.

This is with the mic in my listening position, of course. Position 1 is 10' away while position 2 is 12' away.

Now, another graph. Its kind of busy with 4 traces. But all traces are with BOTH subs working and with the Emo in position 1 and set to 0 degrees. The only thing that changes in the 4 traces is the phase of the Polk in position 2.

Red=0 degrees
Green=90
Blue=180
Black=270

NO EQ was applied for any of these. Its simply both subs working in tandem. Relative levels at the listening position were matched beforehand with both set at 0 degrees.



Of course, I did some extensive listening to music but no movies and really like the results. Since the Polk has a remote control its easy to change its phase from the listening position while listening. At 180 there is an easy to hear detrimental difference as compared to the 270 setting. The 90 and 0 settings are harder to detect and I'm not sure I could tell if I muted it for a few seconds before switching. But remember, both subs in position 1 test out by EmoQ at 0 degrees and both pass at 270 in position 2 at the listening position

Finally, a graph showing the end result with EQ applied. The green line represents the target, the goal, the desired result and is not a measurement of anything. The red line is the response with both subs operating as measured by REW.

[geebo]

Jan 3, 2011 20:45:41 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

Jan 3, 2011 18:26:10 GMT -5 geebo said:

I'm looking at the graph with a single red trace which is both subs running simultaneously. I see a total variance of 7.5db from 80 down to 30 which is largely my house curve. I don't know if you looking at that black trace, but that is the meter calibration trace. So I'm having trouble about your reference to "40db's to 28db's with 2 subs". I'm trying to understand your point here, so please bear with me.

George

I'm looking at the red and purple spl plot lines. emo sub is running more spl than both subs combined. That shouldn't be, your getting cancellation. That could explain the thin sounding bass you noticed with both running since you're loosing 2-3 db's in the 40 to 28db range.

Bob is right on how to start, it takes time and some experimenting to find whats best for the room. Placement is going to make or break a dual sub setup. From your graphs you have now, and since your using a BFD and can eq, your better off using the 1 emo sub if you can't get them dialed in because you cannot move them (as far as spl is concerned)
You FR is fine, but like i said. given the room's good response, you could have it almost totally flat (which is the goal of eqing to begin with)
I personally will give up a bit in FR to gain what I feel is more useful in my HT which is SPL. You have to kind of take middle ground IMO

I see the source of some of the confusion now. I had set each subs gain control down to make the total output as close as I could get the the individual volumes. So the red trace has lower gain settings on both subs as compared to the indivudual traces.
I think a lot of the improvement in decay times is that each sub is now operating at about half the previous levels which would also reduce cone excursion.

[NorthStar]

George, one possibility is that your Polk sub is out of phase when in the 0 degree position.

Also, the two subs should be at the same distance from the main listener.
That can vary too depending of your room dimensions and shape with the openings, but still I truly believe that their best spots are where I told you so before.
And if you add two more, then those two more can go behind you.

And can you give me an idea of where they are positioned right now in your room and in relation to the main listening position?

You know what George; if you would get another Ultra Sub 12, and you would treat it as if it would be the companion of your other one, just like your two front main speakers, I think you would get somewhere where the grass is greener.
...Then the Polk one can go behind you.

[geebo]

Jan 3, 2011 21:51:45 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

George, one possibility is that your Polk sub is out of phase when in the 0 degree position.

Also, the two subs should be at the same distance from the main listener.
That can vary too depending of your room dimensions and shape with the openings, but still I truly believe that their best spots are where I told you so before.
And if you add two more, then those two more can go behind you.

And can you give me an idea of where they are positioned right now in your room and in relation to the main listening position?

You know what George; if you would get another Ultra Sub 12, and you would treat it as if it would be the companion of your other one, just like your two front main speakers, I think you would get somewhere where the grass is greener.
...Then the Polk one can go behind you.

Here is a VERY rough drawing. As I said, either sub in position 1 (which is shown as U12) tests out at 0 degrees and either sub at position 2 (shown as polk) test out at 270 degrees relative to the listening position which is where the two distance lines for the subs converge at the sofa. Just to the left of the left front speaker is the front door which makes it impossible to move things left. Also the entire left side is a walkway leading to the dining area.
And just for the record, in case it got lost in all this discussion, I am extremely happy with the improvement made by adding the second sub even though it is of lesser quality. Thats what I found so surprising.

[NorthStar]

Thank you very much George, this is most helpful, and I do realise your situation.
Compromises have to be made, and it's about finding the best ones.

George, you did try both subs at 0 degree (the Polk too), and it didn't provide good results?
Then you might have to live with that two feet difference as the main compromise.
The thing I ain't so sure about is the phase differences. But, you know best, as I'm not in your room to listen to your system setup.

I rest my case for now. And if ever I can think of or find another solution that could perhaps improve things I sure will let you know. For now you are the master of your own domain!

This is a great thread George and you never know who might come up with another idea (perhaps yourself) and get that little extra performance in the spice of your life...

[Erwin.BE]

Jan 3, 2011 15:23:40 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Wow guys you are getting me into this stuff fo sur! Cool!

As in aside, there is a CD by Sting called "A brand New Day", and the first song "A Thousand Years" has some good low bass surprises in it (check the first 37 seconds). And the entire CD is very well recorded, no doubt because of Sting's perfectionism at perfect audio quality and bass as well. {And check the last 59 seconds of the last song.}
I don't know if you guys have that CD, but if you don't I highly recommend it.
But get the SACD if you have an SACD player.

SACD a bit pricy...
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B00022LI52/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1294146447&sr=1-1&condition=used

Review here:
www.sa-cd.net/showreviews/2034

BTW, there's a multichanel DVD-Audio version also. Only €19 new. As good as the SACD? I read a German listener comment and he said it was "only" 24/48 as in standard DVD, not 24/96 as in proper DVD-Audio... He also wrote that the multichannel was real good. I would order it, but it's not in stock. I see my local library has the CD,I will get that first. Thanks for the tip, Bob! I have a few CD's from Sting, but I find only "If On A Winter's Night..." truly outstanding and entertaining. He's a real professional though.

Edit: Did some more research on Sting and "formats". He brought us a few SACD in the past, but to prove that SACD is not going anywhere interesting, he did three formats for "If On A Winter's Night" (2009). CD, DVD (video) and... LP. No SACD.

[geebo]

Jan 3, 2011 23:42:01 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Thank you very much George, this is most helpful, and I do realise your situation.
Compromises have to be made, and it's about finding the best ones.

George, you did try both subs at 0 degree (the Polk too), and it didn't provide good results?
Then you might have to live with that two feet difference as the main compromise.
The thing I ain't so sure about is the phase differences. But, you know best, as I'm not in your room to listen to your system setup.

I rest my case for now. And if ever I can think of or find another solution that could perhaps improve things I sure will let you know. For now you are the master of your own domain!

This is a great thread George and you never know who might come up with another idea (perhaps yourself) and get that little extra performance in the spice of your life...

Thanks, Bob
I did play with the phasing and levels of each sub quite a bit before starting the EQ process and really believe I have it sounding pretty darn good. Certainly better than 1 sub alone...

George

[NorthStar]

Jan 4, 2011 8:09:21 GMT -5 Erwin.BE said:

Jan 3, 2011 15:23:40 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Wow guys you are getting me into this stuff fo sur! Cool!

As in aside, there is a CD by Sting called "A brand New Day", and the first song "A Thousand Years" has some good low bass surprises in it (check the first 37 seconds). And the entire CD is very well recorded, no doubt because of Sting's perfectionism at perfect audio quality and bass as well. {And check the last 59 seconds of the last song.}
I don't know if you guys have that CD, but if you don't I highly recommend it.
But get the SACD if you have an SACD player.

SACD a bit pricy...
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B00022LI52/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1294146447&sr=1-1&condition=used

Review here:
www.sa-cd.net/showreviews/2034

BTW, there's a multichanel DVD-Audio version also. Only €19 new. As good as the SACD? I read a German listener comment and he said it was "only" 24/48 as in standard DVD, not 24/96 as in proper DVD-Audio... He also wrote that the multichannel was real good. I would order it, but it's not in stock. I see my local library has the CD,I will get that first. Thanks for the tip, Bob! I have a few CD's from Sting, but I find only "If On A Winter's Night..." truly outstanding and entertaining. He's a real professional though.

Edit: Did some more research on Sting and "formats". He brought us a few SACD in the past, but to prove that SACD is not going anywhere interesting, he did three formats for "If On A Winter's Night" (2009). CD, DVD (video) and... LP. No SACD.

Erwin, just get the CD. I got both versions, and the CD is very good. Good stuff for your sub.

* And the price for the SACD (about $500 CAN), forget it!

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2011 22:29:44 GMT -5 geebo said:

Just to the left of the left front speaker is the front door which makes it impossible to move things left.

Where the hell are your priorities? Make your guests use the garage door, the back door or the French doors.

I see your cabinet in the right front corner is made in China. What's this world coming to? I remember the good old days when cabinets were made in Ohio by the Amish or Vermont by Ethan Allen.

[geebo]

Jan 4, 2011 22:08:34 GMT -5 @chuckienut said:

Jan 3, 2011 22:29:44 GMT -5 geebo said:

Just to the left of the left front speaker is the front door which makes it impossible to move things left.

Where the hell are your priorities? Make your guests use the garage door, the back door or the French doors.

I see your cabinet in the right front corner is made in China. What's this world coming to? I remember the good old days when cabinets were made in Ohio by the Amish or Vermont by Ethan Allen.

Hey, my priorities are in the correct order. My better half, however, insists on a useable front door...go figure.
And that China cabinet? Its filled with trinkets from Japan!!!

[Deleted]

Oh, what a coincidence. My wife was made in Japan too, but I don't keep her in a cabinet.