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Post by urwi on Jul 28, 2014 15:59:46 GMT -5
Rush - absolutely fantastic musicians and I really like their music but how their recordings sounded has always been absolutely awful. Certainly no recordings to test the quality of a system with. Any Owl CIty recording is better suited (listen to the bass lines headphones vs. speaker playback!). There's no defying of physics; SPL is SPL, waves are waves. He has a lot of reflective surfaces, and so do I. That's why I don't have Klipsch (other than I can't stand them in a good room); very, very bright. When you have "bright" speakers in a "bright" room you can just forget about bass. His subs are likely canceling themselves out because of room nodes created by placement and room characteristics in relationship to his seating position. Going to his Paradigms will help quite a bit as they are "darker" than his Klipsch. Taming his room a bit, along with better sub and seating placement will help his HSUs. If he were to replace his Paradigms with Phase Tech PCs (which are bassy to begin with) he'd even have more bass to dial in. By way of comparison: just finished playing songs from the new Rush album for a friend. He complimented me on how well I had my sub tuned. I told him I didn't have the sub on. I had to pull the sub back to show him that the amp was off. ;D |
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jiml
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Post by jiml on Oct 18, 2015 13:53:57 GMT -5
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Post by leonski on Oct 18, 2015 16:21:06 GMT -5
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Post by highfihoney on Oct 18, 2015 18:39:02 GMT -5
I read that set up guide & overall its spot on , where i disagree is with the reviewers stance on bass below 80hz being omni directional & the subs placement does not effect stereo imaging . |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2015 6:35:24 GMT -5
I read that set up guide & overall its spot on , where i disagree is with the reviewers stance on bass below 80hz being omni directional & the subs placement does not effect stereo imaging . Could perhaps you be mistaking the fundamental tone (first harmonic) of an instrument while you are also hearing the second harmonic (first overtone)? For example, if you have a 5.1 system and you hear a 50 Hz tone from an instrument played thru the sub then that should be omni-directional and usually you would not be able to locate it regardless of the location of the sub. Let's say the instrument was on the left side of the stage in the recording. However, there is also the second harmonic at 100Hz which will be played thru the left speaker. The third hamonic (second overtone) at 150Hz would also come thru the left speaker. So your mind says oh that instrument sound is coming from the left speaker and therefore not omni-directional. But you are really hearing from the left the 100Hz and 150Hz tones while the fundamental 50Hz tone is coming from the sub (for this example on the left). Let's say you then move the sub to the right you will still hear exactly the same effect that the instrument is on the left. In other words you are thinking the sub is not omni-directional because of the second and third hamonic, etc. which give you the directional clues as to the origin of the tone. But if you were able to eliminate the harmonics and only play back the 50Hz fundamental tone like from a test CD then you could move the sub around and then without the higher harmonics you would not be able to locate the sub's/tone's location in the soundstage. This also why the frequencies below 80Hz do not affect the stereo imaging, but the harmonic tones above 80Hz do affect the stereo image and allow you to locate the source of the sound. If you change the location of the sub the stereo image should not change if you have your bass management properly set up, surprisingly many folks do not. Some folks run their sub high like above 80Hz (especially if they have small bookshelf speakers) or they don't filter/low pass at 80Hz or below, Now in this case the sub might be itself reproducing some of those tones above 80Hz and then yes you can locate the position of the sub. So the rule about 80Hz and below being non-locatable is dependent on having quality towers or bookshelf speakers that have response well below 80Hz and a good sub that goes above 80Hz and then you have the sub and mains crossed over at 80Hz or slightly slower. Generally it is accepted that frequencies below about 80Hz can be heard but not located. Frequencies below about 20Hz cannot be heard but only felt. The 80Hz effect is why we usually recommend feeding the sub the frequencies from 80Hz and down to the sub which thus can be placed in a number of locations for the best low bass performance. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Oct 19, 2015 15:26:31 GMT -5
I would like to place my sub in my Home Theater instead of in a UPS Shipping Center, but alas - that is not possible until Wednesday. After that, I will worry about where to place the sub within my theater following advice within this thread!
Mark
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Post by leonski on Oct 19, 2015 20:30:08 GMT -5
ChuckieNut is spot on. A sine wave without harmonic would be VERY difficult to localize with a fundament under 80hz or so. In a NORMAL size room which is less than 1 wavelength of the frequency. 80hz has a wavelength of about 13+ feet. The human head is NOT large enough to provide the physics necessary to do so. Elephants? Yes, with their HUGE ears and ability to generate near-infrasonics.
So? Why does a sub effect imaging? As Chuckienut said, it's the Harmonics. When I cycle my sub on/off while listening to stuff with normal bass content, the image opens up some with the sub ON.
One disagreement with Chuckienut? I have a recording of Saint Sans Symphony No.3 (With Organ) and it has a FUNDAMENTAL 16 2/3hz tone which I can not only hear but FEEL. Too lound and it may damage something. And I KNOW it is not a doubled frequency that I'm hearing since it it noticable lower in pitch than a 20hz test tone AND anything else my stereo has EVER made. Cone woofers can 'double' the frequency applied if it is below the fundamental ability to reproduce. My sub is No Less than 6db down at that point and more likely 12db or more.
Also, don't forget that MOST recordings and rock in particular mix the bass to mono below 80hz AnyWay. Another reason that 80hz was 'chosen' as the 'stadard'.
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Post by deltadube on Oct 19, 2015 20:51:27 GMT -5
I would like to place my sub in my Home Theater instead of in a UPS Shipping Center, but alas - that is not possible until Wednesday. After that, I will worry about where to place the sub within my theater following advice within this thread! Mark just 1 sub a pair is nicer! sub woofer crawl is a good start.. db meters are a must for setting up subs well... |
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Post by highfihoney on Oct 19, 2015 23:46:11 GMT -5
I read that set up guide & overall its spot on , where i disagree is with the reviewers stance on bass below 80hz being omni directional & the subs placement does not effect stereo imaging . Could perhaps you be mistaking the fundamental tone (first harmonic) of an instrument while you are also hearing the second harmonic (first overtone)? For example, if you have a 5.1 system and you hear a 50 Hz tone from an instrument played thru the sub then that should be omni-directional and usually you would not be able to locate it regardless of the location of the sub. Let's say the instrument was on the left side of the stage in the recording. However, there is also the second harmonic at 100Hz which will be played thru the left speaker. The third hamonic (second overtone) at 150Hz would also come thru the left speaker. So your mind says oh that instrument sound is coming from the left speaker and therefore not omni-directional. But you are really hearing from the left the 100Hz and 150Hz tones while the fundamental 50Hz tone is coming from the sub (for this example on the left). Let's say you then move the sub to the right you will still hear exactly the same effect that the instrument is on the left. In other words you are thinking the sub is not omni-directional because of the second and third hamonic, etc. which give you the directional clues as to the origin of the tone. But if you were able to eliminate the harmonics and only play back the 50Hz fundamental tone like from a test CD then you could move the sub around and then without the higher harmonics you would not be able to locate the sub's/tone's location in the soundstage. This also why the frequencies below 80Hz do not affect the stereo imaging, but the harmonic tones above 80Hz do affect the stereo image and allow you to locate the source of the sound. If you change the location of the sub the stereo image should not change if you have your bass management properly set up, surprisingly many folks do not. Some folks run their sub high like above 80Hz (especially if they have small bookshelf speakers) or they don't filter/low pass at 80Hz or below, Now in this case the sub might be itself reproducing some of those tones above 80Hz and then yes you can locate the position of the sub. So the rule about 80Hz and below being non-locatable is dependent on having quality towers or bookshelf speakers that have response well below 80Hz and a good sub that goes above 80Hz and then you have the sub and mains crossed over at 80Hz or slightly slower. Generally it is accepted that frequencies below about 80Hz can be heard but not located. Frequencies below about 20Hz cannot be heard but only felt. The 80Hz effect is why we usually recommend feeding the sub the frequencies from 80Hz and down to the sub which thus can be placed in a number of locations for the best low bass performance. Your missing some serious issues with subs for stereo, 1st is the loss of accuracy & imaging when relying on subs for low bass ,many sub users claim bass is not directional & this is false, especially with the 80hz setting because 70 hz is the true point where it becomes very difficult to locate bass direction easily , when relying on a sub for low bass directional cues are spread out over a large area smearing the stereo image , also arrival times from the mid and tweeter are advanced relative to the woofer instead of being delayed, causing further loss in accuracy, these effects are proven. Then we have the issue of a single subwoofer trying to cope with & properly seperate left & right low bass notes , this further adds to loss of directional cues from low bass ,smearing the imaging even further & more problems with imaging due to arrival times at the ear, for ht subs & monitors are sufficient but for the best 2 channel set up true full range speakers are superior over subs for more precise imaging & stereo seperation , using stereo subs will only eleminate smearing & loss of directional cues if both subs are placed near ,or preferably right next to the L & R speakers , this will counteract the advanced arrival times of the mid & highs for proper stereo imagimg but in all likelyhood will make ht useage sound like hell . Ive been at this over 40 yrs , did all the sub locations , room eq & accoustic treatments to try & get subs to image properly & at the same time give a decent response for ht & you cant have perfect performance both in stereo & ht with subs , stereo imaging is lessoned every time, i much prefer true full range speakers for fronts & rears in my ht because stereo is my focus , seperation & imaging are superior with full range vs subs for 2 channel , now ht is a different story all together but im willing to have less bass slam watching movies so as not to give up seperation & imaging in 2 channel . |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2015 0:48:04 GMT -5
Well I have been into this for 46 years but that is close enough. OK, 70Hz versus 80Hz can be arguable. I said generally so that the 80Hz can vary depending on the sub, the room and your head. 80Hz is generally considered by most experts in this field as to which frequency the low bass becomes difficult to locate. You don't seem to know that using full range towers can have severe bass issues depending on where they are placed in the room. If you have done so much experimenting with different sub locations then you would know that the sub performance can change drastically when moved. Almost never is it practical to move a tower to improve poor bass response, That is one huge reason to use sub(s) and not rely on full range towers or especially ones with built in subs (very bad idea but nice for wives who don't want those big subs in their room). Bass signals below 80Hz (or 70Hz for you) are mono so there is no affect on stereo imaging (the overtones are a different story as I mentioned above). For a long time 5.1 (one sub) was standard. Now many realize the output level and low bass performance can be improved by using multiple subs. Stereo imaging and separation above 80Hz is generally a function of the main speakers, true for both 2 channel and mutli channel sound. If you have properly set up a tower/sub 2.1 or 5.1+ system by re-directing the bass below 80Hz from all speakers to the sub(s) and it is mixed with the LFE signal if present and you have all speakers set to "small" you will be approaching a properly set up system. Of course using appropriate high and low filters and steep slopes will keep the low bass in the sub(s) and out of the mains and keep the tones above 80Hz in the mains and out of the subs. I am presuming here we are talking about reasonably high quality mains and subs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2015 1:14:30 GMT -5
ChuckieNut is spot on. A sine wave without harmonic would be VERY difficult to localize with a fundament under 80hz or so. In a NORMAL size room which is less than 1 wavelength of the frequency. 80hz has a wavelength of about 13+ feet. The human head is NOT large enough to provide the physics necessary to do so. Elephants? Yes, with their HUGE ears and ability to generate near-infrasonics. So? Why does a sub effect imaging? As Chuckienut said, it's the Harmonics. When I cycle my sub on/off while listening to stuff with normal bass content, the image opens up some with the sub ON. One disagreement with Chuckienut? I have a recording of Saint Sans Symphony No.3 (With Organ) and it has a FUNDAMENTAL 16 2/3hz tone which I can not only hear but FEEL. Too lound and it may damage something. And I KNOW it is not a doubled frequency that I'm hearing since it it noticable lower in pitch than a 20hz test tone AND anything else my stereo has EVER made. Cone woofers can 'double' the frequency applied if it is below the fundamental ability to reproduce. My sub is No Less than 6db down at that point and more likely 12db or more. Also, don't forget that MOST recordings and rock in particular mix the bass to mono below 80hz AnyWay. Another reason that 80hz was 'chosen' as the 'stadard'. Leonski, thanks for the feedback and correct me if I'm wrong here as I love organ music too. When you are playing back an organ fundamental tone at about 16Hz aren't you also reproducing an overtone of 32Hz which you can hear. Maybe you are only feeling the 16Hz while hearing the 32Hz. I was always under the impression that you generally only feel the tones below 20Hz but I have also read other comments that 16Hz is the hear/feel level. Wiki/Audio (not necessarily the definitive expert) says: Frequencies below 20 Hz are generally felt rather than heard.Maybe 16Hz and 20Hz are close enough for government work and your pitch in that area is great .  |
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Post by leonski on Oct 20, 2015 2:41:10 GMT -5
I guess I'm OK, than. My lowcut is about 60hz @12db/oct which cuts some low energy from the mains AND my sub is set for about 45hz, @24db/oct. This give a flat response THRU the crossover area. Thou phase, is of course, iffy.
70hz / 80hz? What's the difference? Fact is the standard was set at 80hz. Maybe they were planning on speakers utterly incapable of the lowest 2 octaves? And don't forget that we are still talking MUSIC so, a pure note at 80hz is NOT going to happen but whatever is making that as
a musical note will ALSO be making harmonics which will come from the appropriate speaker, giving that 'image' to the sound. And let's say, just for the sake of being complete, that the sub IS crossed over at 80hz as are the mains. That means the 'knee' frequency will be below the crossover over the Sub and ABOVE for the mains. This SHOULD sum FLAT at the 'crossover' POINT. So, while the sub MAY be localizable @80hz, the mains respons is at least EQUAL to the subs. At that frequency. I don't get the problem.
And yes, GENERALLY is true, as near as I know. But speakers also DO, as you note, produce the first harmonic of a low tone. Or CAN, anyway. This is called 'doubling'. While my sub is WAY down at 16hz, it DOES produce the fundamental. A 20hz test tone is audibly higher in frequency.
If you listen to the soundtrack of 2001 you'll hear 'Also Sprach Zarathustra' which has a low, sustained 32hz pedal tone. My system reproduces THAT at a pretty good output and annoys EVERYBODY. The Pedal Tone from the Saint Sans piece is LOWER by far and rattles EVERYTHING in the house not firmly padded or nailed down. Even the largest window glass has a visible reflection artifact. An immediate COMPARISON is what tells the tale.
Want to have some FUN? Get a recording of either the '1812 Overture' OR Beethoven's take on 'Wellington's Victory'. Both can be had with REAL black powder cannon shots and played AS SCORED. Wellington's Victory does NOT celebrate any battle with Napoleon, as you might suspect. The piece was ALSO originally composed for a Mechanical Orchestra which never quite got it right, if it was ever play at all by that means. APPROACH MAX LEVELS CAREFULLY
I have a VERY good room for bass. 8 sides NOT counting the peaked ceiling. Very asymmetric. The 2nd place I put my sub yielded very good results while the FIRST place I tried it turned my den into a one-note Helmholtz.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2015 3:38:35 GMT -5
I'm very familiar with all the music you mentioned and one of the reasons a good sub is so nice to have. I wish I had one that even went lower but mine is not bad in my room. I've heard a very large pipe organ in a huge cathedral and also heard and felt 122mm Russian rockets that the VC sent in at night going off not many meter away in Vietnam. The impact of those sounds thru ones system can be quite realistic.  |
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Post by leonski on Oct 20, 2015 14:41:32 GMT -5
I live in SanDiego which might be the LAST city on the planet with an OUTDOOR Municipal Pipe Organ. It can be heard in concert every Sunday for 1 hour. The city and the Spreckels Organ Society employ Carol Williams as the Municipal Organist. spreckelsorgan.orgNote the playlist for the 18th, which while past, is a good representitive of the programs played. Stay after for the tour! I heard the Organ at St. Bavo Church in Haarlem played for a few minutes in practice. No system I've ever heard could possibly do THAT justice. Between the feeling of space and immense Power of the instrument, I was gobsmacked. I 'shhhhd' people. The organist turned it up and finally played a tune. WOW! |
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Post by jmilton on Oct 20, 2015 14:58:43 GMT -5
I live in SanDiego which might be the LAST city on the planet with an OUTDOOR Municipal Pipe Organ. It can be heard in concert every Sunday for 1 hour. The city and the Spreckels Organ Society employ Carol Williams as the Municipal Organist. spreckelsorgan.orgNote the playlist for the 18th, which while past, is a good representitive of the programs played. Stay after for the tour! I heard the Organ at St. Bavo Church in Haarlem played for a few minutes in practice. No system I've ever heard could possibly do THAT justice. Between the feeling of space and immense Power of the instrument, I was gobsmacked. I 'shhhhd' people. The organist turned it up and finally played a tune. WOW! ![]() ![]()  A wonderful organ, which GF Handel actually played. I have a recording with the organist E. Power Biggs that comes close to doing it justice. A well recorded organ is a great test for a subwoofer! I heard the Spreckels' in Balboa Park a few years back...a rare treat, as I live in NE. By the way, St. Bavo is the patron saint of BASS. |
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Post by highfihoney on Oct 20, 2015 16:34:13 GMT -5
Well I have been into this for 46 years but that is close enough. OK, 70Hz versus 80Hz can be arguable. I said generally so that the 80Hz can vary depending on the sub, the room and your head. 80Hz is generally considered by most experts in this field as to which frequency the low bass becomes difficult to locate. You don't seem to know that using full range towers can have severe bass issues depending on where they are placed in the room. If you have done so much experimenting with different sub locations then you would know that the sub performance can change drastically when moved. Almost never is it practical to move a tower to improve poor bass response, That is one huge reason to use sub(s) and not rely on full range towers or especially ones with built in subs (very bad idea but nice for wives who don't want those big subs in their room). Bass signals below 80Hz (or 70Hz for you) are mono so there is no affect on stereo imaging (the overtones are a different story as I mentioned above). For a long time 5.1 (one sub) was standard. Now many realize the output level and low bass performance can be improved by using multiple subs. Stereo imaging and separation above 80Hz is generally a function of the main speakers, true for both 2 channel and mutli channel sound. If you have properly set up a tower/sub 2.1 or 5.1+ system by re-directing the bass below 80Hz from all speakers to the sub(s) and it is mixed with the LFE signal if present and you have all speakers set to "small" you will be approaching a properly set up system. Of course using appropriate high and low filters and steep slopes will keep the low bass in the sub(s) and out of the mains and keep the tones above 80Hz in the mains and out of the subs. I am presuming here we are talking about reasonably high quality mains and subs. Im very aware of how speaker placement can effect bass ,for some reason you seem stuck on thx values vs AES proven stereo reproduction values pioneered by floyd toole , theil ect , apparently to somehow magicaly show the use of subs & monitors is superior to full range stereo reproduction , which it is not . Everything you posted relates to subwoofer performance & totally ignores hugely important factors which no omni directional sub can ever correct, i will address several issues you didnt . 1 Low bass is not mono as a standard , it can be mono on some recordings & stereo on other recordings & all dependant on mic locations ,there is no universal standard in the studio, the factor of low bass response being mono or stereo occurs in the studio durring recording , not in the home ,in a two or three mic stereo recording bass information can arrive at different times at each microphone , arrival times at each microphone variate where at low frequencies the sound is 180 degrees out of phase ,when a sub combines these frequencies into mono the result is zero output at those frequencies ,which means if you have a low bass note that has a phase difference of 180 degrees between channels durring recording you will get zero bass response for that particular passage using a mono bass signal , recording methods have a huge impact on bass response so saying all low bass is mono is completely false from the start . A quick way to prove all bass is not mono is by flipping your preamp from stereo to mono , if all the bass on that recording is in mono then no difference in low bass will be heard , if the recordings bass isnt mono you'll notice a sharp reduction in low bass , atleast half my recordings are affected in low bass by switching from stereo to mono , differences that come from the recording method not the listening system or room conditions. 2 Smearing was also left out , just because the crossover is set at 80hz does not mean the subs response magically stops at 81hz , the sub can radiate as high as 100hz & above causing an overlap between the mains & end up smearing the image . 3 Arrival times , omni directional low bass advances the arrival times of mid bass & tweeter response , radiated bass does not arrive at the ear the same way point source bass does,this is not personal opion but fact , if radiated sound was unpercievable then bose 901's would be far superior vs front baffel designs which we all know isnt the case . 4 Low bass is full of musical cues when produced by a full range system which allows listeners to seperate l from r on low bass , with omni directional bass all musical clues are lost . If you dont agree what sounds best thats fine but dont post all low bass is mono as a fact when it is not , or that running a single sub crossed over at 80hz corrects the lack of bass without introducing a whole new series of sonic problems . |
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Post by leonski on Oct 21, 2015 2:06:36 GMT -5
It's LATE so i'll just respond to your point #2. You do NOT set the sub crossover to 80hz and the SAME setting for the mains. I point to THX because their must be a REASON they went with that.
So, in short I set my sub to say 45hz and the mains higher. This means that the mains are 6db or MORE down at the crossover as is the sub. Sub is 24db/oct. and mains are 12db/oct. This is itended to produce a flat response thru the crossover region.
ALL crossovers murder phase. You should really also be looking at mid/tweet crossover and the Frequency as well as low/mid. If you have a 3-way w/Sub which is in effect a 4-way system, that's ANOTHER crossover to worry about.
I don't remember the critical frequencies. It would appear the intelligable frequencies are between maybe 300hz and 6khz or some such. This is the ATT standard for Telephony. And it matters.
Oh well!
Point #4: Low bass is low bass. However, the instrument does produce harmonics. Those are addressed by the main speakers which gives the 'spatial' cues. Pure bass is not localizable by the human ear. This is at least in part because of the physics of most listening areas being very SMALL in comparison to the wavelenght of the lower frequencies. 28hz, a low note on the Piano is nearly 40 foot wavelength at 1100 ft/sec.
Point #3: What do Bose 901s have to do with Anything? Fact is that the ear is poor at distinguishing arrival times of sound. My panels SHOULD be over 5 feet from the wall so the back wave is 10miliseconds behind the first, main wave and does NOT smear it as a result. Sound perception of humans is mainly based on being hunter/gatherers so we are best, maybe, in a semi-anachoicic environment. That's up for grabs, maybe. DSP systens offer correction for time delay.
You sure are good at making stuff up. WHERE was it said that 80hz was the be-all / end all of sub crossover frequencies? It is used by THX for a REASON which is as much practical equipment oriented as physics as physiology. Since I have ZERO interest in HT, I must as what the effect is of setting the main speakers to 'small'? Does this attenuate the bass TO those speakers? Does the setting to 'large' leave them run full-range?
Who said a sat/sub was 'superior' to other or full-range speakers? Finding a musical sub is easy if you've got plenty of $$$, but more difficult as budget diminishes. The very lowest tier are non-musical boomers best for movie effects.
Please read the Harman White Paper on sub placement. Good stuff which will reinforce some things you already know and maybe challenge some things you THINK you know. Always a nugget or two in a article like that.
And I too have been at this around 40+ years. And have heard more than my fair share.
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Post by vneal on Oct 21, 2015 7:13:54 GMT -5
First I am opinionated on this subject & don't mind discussing my beliefs. Every room is different. Two subs are better than one. My personal tests do not favor a sub behind the listing position ever. Others may have other findings. For one sub I think the preferred location is centered between the front speakers. Sometimes this is not possible then usually to the left or right(experiment) in and out from the corners near the speaker with the subs front woofer lined up with the front speaker. Some rooms the sub sounds better half way down one of the walls. If you do nothing else set front monitors for small and the sub for 80 HZ, But there is so much more...
Your listening room or theater is an integral part of your sound reproduction system. The physical dimensions of the room and its furnishings, materials,doors and windows play an important role in defining how your system sounds .When you place a sound source in an enclosed rectangular space, “standing waves" are created. These are basically sound waves trapped in a room that bounce back and forth. his is why a bass trap in the corners help so much in that they help deaden these waves where two walls meet. Experiment is the key word. My personal room has tile & rug placed over it. A heavy fabric couch on 1side and leather chairs in the center listening position with two bass traps in each corner. It works well for me.The moral of the story is to avoid any listening seated positions near wave peak or dip regions. As odd as this sounds I find the BEST LISTENING POSITION not near the EXACT CENTER position but of a little off to the side a foot usually.This is a game of inches. And never have a listening position near a wall.
Buy a named brand sub---and experiment with its placement as well as your listening position.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2015 7:36:58 GMT -5
2 is better than one only if they are setup properly with positioning, phase and volume...(even thought the below video theorizes otherwise...I dont agree with everythgin he says...especially room gain)
however 3 is the golden nugget!
you basically can place three wherever the heck you want and the response will be pretty good for all spots...there is a great vid to watch
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Post by leonski on Oct 21, 2015 12:06:12 GMT -5
I wish I had an HOUR to listen to this guy. In the first 4 minutes he was pretty good, but even at that, I'm not in 100% agreement.
His idea of good bass slightly rising? Good idea and exactly what panels do by nature. So, even though they are NOT extended bass into the lowest reaches, they DO sound nice, even without a sub.
Again, virtually all of the sub advice seen in the other links and vids can be seen in the Harmon White Paper I linked a couple posts back.
I wish I DID have the 2large it'd take for (2) more subs. At that point, I'm looking for a place to sit. And Yes, you CAN screw up a multiple sub setup. I'll placment would do the trick nicely or 'stacking', which I've seen suggested.
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There's no defying of physics; SPL is SPL, waves are waves. He has a lot of reflective surfaces, and so do I. That's why I don't have Klipsch (other than I can't stand them in a good room); very, very bright. When you have "bright" speakers in a "bright" room you can just forget about bass. His subs are likely canceling themselves out because of room nodes created by placement and room characteristics in relationship to his seating position. Going to his Paradigms will help quite a bit as they are "darker" than his Klipsch. Taming his room a bit, along with better sub and seating placement will help his HSUs. If he were to replace his Paradigms with Phase Tech PCs (which are bassy to begin with) he'd even have more bass to dial in.
