Hope so Jam. ... So easy to misinterpret someone's real meaning when they aren't around you and talking over a nice bottle of French wine and with some great Russian caviar, and Swiss Camembert cheeze.
So your preference was based solely from what you've read and from experience - not by comparison? I know it's hard to be able to own 2 systems at one time.
All my thoughts, ideas, believes, experiences in my own life are from a combination of: personal experience, various readings from over the last forty years (articles, essays, reviews, Audio & Video magazines, books, technical writings, etc.), discussions with enthusiasts and professional experts, and all that Jazz ...
I never compared two systems of these sorts side by side personally; but I did one at a time at various different times. And I did experiment extensively with various techniques in my approaches to loudspeakers' positioning, microphone's positioning, furnitute rearranging, and all that Blues ...
And it is way too limited to have real value for most people, I think. But then, that wouldn't be the first time in my life that I'm wrong.
Post by The Mad Norseman on May 19, 2012 16:30:20 GMT -5
An interesting thing with my Yamaha AVR's room correction (running Yamaha's YPAO system). I had it set up with only one position measured and was happy as a little clam for over a year with that (it can measure up to 8 positions). Then about a year after that initial set up, I had an afternoon free, and thought "why not!", lets save the original to memory and run it again, but measure from 3 positions this time, then save that to memory (on the remote), and compare. WOW! - what an improvement the 3 measured positions made! I love how you can just toggle back and forth between them on the remote to compare while listening, but the soundstage became huge, and the imaging was excellent with the three position memory. Also the highs and lows seemed improved too. Needless to say, I'm keeping it on 'memory setting 2' now! So the moral of the story is don't be afraid to experiment, it often yields some surprisingly different and improved sound! (Oh, one last thing, also don't be afriad to go in and check the measured distances and correct those if needed - that won't affect the other settings). Enjoy! ;D
I was reading that Trinnov (even the scaled down version in the Sherwood Newcastle R-972) works in 2.0, and 2.1. I didn't know any room correction technologies did this? My HK's do not. Does Audyssey work in 2.0, 2.1 as well?
By now the marriage has been consummated (with the rabble rousing Blu-ray movie "Real Steel" to give the new system a real work out. Got use to that and ran some music through too (see previous entries). So after living with it for a while, I thought it was time to set up the Audyssey room correction system.
Now I'm no room acoustics, or room correction software expert. All my previous experience has been with Yamaha's own proprietary YPAO system which has always yielded pretty good results for me. First with an RX-V863 (a terrible amplifier section, so got rid of it), then shortly after that with their more upscale line, a RX-V1900 (a MUCH better amplifier in that one!). The Audyssey system used in Marantz's AV8801 is the MultEQ XT32 version, and SubEQ. The SubEQ is for integrating TWO subwoofers instead of the usual one, or one that's 'summed'. So I had no experience with this one. Plugging in the set up mic wire instantly brings up the Audyssey set up and clearly walked me through the process - along with neat graphics (in case I got bored and fell asleep along the way…). First it asks me to set the levels on my two subwoofers to a 75db output. It does this by putting out a bass signal from each subwoofer individually in turn, and the db level is shown on the TV. Both registered too high, and asked me to adjust the level on the subwoofer itself while checking the changing db level on the screen as I did so - while putting out a continuous signal. It asks you to adjust to 75db +/- about 2db. Then the read out turns green, and we're on to subwoofer #2 for the same treatment.
One the subwoofer levels are set, it moves you to the part where you run all the speakers through. That’s part 4b - see next so each part doesn’t get too long!
After setting the two subwoofer levels, it was time to run the Audyssey XT32 room correction software. Like I typed, I'm no expert, and have only run Yamaha's YPAO before (which I thought gave very good results), but XT32 was said to be the gold standard in room acoustic correction software, so was really looking forward to running this and seeing the differences it might make.
The AV8801's menu walked me through it very easily. You can measure up to eight positions, starting with the main position 1st – which the speaker distances are derived from. So starting with the main sweet spot I began. The usual 'chirps' started, and Audyssey also measures the room acoustics before and after each set of chirps has sounded as well – not just during, which I was unaware of. I measured six positions – at all six viewing positions in my living room 'Home Theater'. (Audyssey recommends measuring at least six positions). After the last one, you select calibration, and then it computes everything for a minute or so before asking you to save the results.
My results came out well except for a few anomalies: 1) It set my surrounds as "large", and with no bass management crossover, and with a -3.0db level drop. 2) It set my center speaker as "small", but with a 40Hz cross over, and a -4.5db level drop. 3) It set my front L & R also as "large", but dropped their output by -8.0db. 4) My two subwoofers were set at -8.0db, and -8.5db respectively.
The problems with this included: surround speakers were much too loud and prominent. Front main speakers were too low in output, and the center a bit too much in output. Playing the Blu-ray movie "Real Steel", the audio sounded GLORIOUS! - but it was obvious to me (but not to Mrs. Mad Norseman!), that the surrounds levels were too high, and the fronts too low. Women. So since then, I've dropped the surrounds output by 2db, boosted the fronts output by 2db, and the center by 0.5db, and each of the subwoofers by 0.5db each. Now it sounds properly balanced while preserving the frequency filters determined during set up.
I also reset all speakers to "small", and set the crossovers for the fronts at 40Hz, and the center & surrounds to 80Hz.
I'm posting a photo of the correction results for each speaker set for the benefit of forum members who may be unfamiliar with what Audyssey does as far as correcting speaker frequency outputs, given specific room acoustic problems. It's obvious that it detected my rooms mid-bass 'bloom' around 70Hz to 90Hz and corrected for that, as well as individual speaker placement treble range anomalies. Fascinating stuff!
I'll re-run it again later after I educate myself a bit more, and convince Mrs. Mad Norseman of the need for those corner bass traps I want,…she’s resisting so far,…
I have owned the Sherwood R-972 with Trinnov now for about a year, and I still keep discovering new things about it. I thought I would share a thing or two that might be of interest to us audiophile types, lol. In retrospect, there is no way a reviewer could have this processor for a short while, and know very much about it, especially concerning Trinnov. It’s really not their fault in a way. For one reason, the R-972's manual is not nearly as comprehensive, and explicative as it needs to be. There are things that one will discover the R-972/Trinnov does by accident, or by reading somewhere like in Curt Hoyt’s (from Trinnov) ongoing AVS articles for R-972 owners concerning Trinnov. Secondly, Audyssey is probably the room correction technology that most reviewers are familiar with, but this ain’t Audyssey. I doubt any knowledge of Audyssey will help them understand how Trinnov works in this processor. So, I believe there are many things not mentioned about Trinnov that would have been enlightening about this unit to people, but the reviewers do not have the time they need to find out all about how it works in the time they are allowed for a review.
The one thing that I want to focus on here, and that I don’t remember reading in any of the reviews on this unit, is how that 2 channel stereo works with “Remastering”, “Pure Audio” and Trinnov.
When using two channel RCA stereo L/R “out” from my old Philips CD-50 CD player into RCA L/R “in” on the Sherwood some magic can happen:
1) Remastering - Remastering is a feature that only works with 2 channel stereo. I’ve tried both HDMI and analog, and it definitely works better with analog. When engaged, Remastering upsamples the source material by 2x. If you have a CD that is 16/44.1khz it will be “remastered” or upsampled to 24/88.2. If your source material is 88.2, it will be up-sampled to 176.4. Resolution max’s out at 24/192. The sound is pretty amazing with Remastering engaged. There is a noticeable improvement in sound.
2) Pure Audio - When engaged, it turns off all video circuitry and this supposedly enhances audio quality by eliminating any potential degradation of sound by having video processing circuitry on at the same time . I’ve read mixed reviews on whether Pure Audio mode really affects the sound, but with the R-972 it is definitely unmistakable. This took the audio to another level. Having “Remastering” + “Pure Audio” on at the same time is a game changer. Thinner sounding CD’s got fatter. More high frequency sparkle. More defined bass. Better separation and localization of instruments within the sound stage.
3) Trinnov - Initially, I thought that it only worked using HDMI. But, Trinnov also works in 2 channel analog stereo as well! Not only can you apply a number of Trinnov presets to change to the EQ of your choice, but more importantly to me is that Trinnov takes over total bass management/EQ of your sub(s) as if you were running via HDMI, but again, this is 2 channel analog RCA ins I’m talking about! The sound is already amazing with my 15 year old CD player. I can’t imagine using an Oppo BDP-105‘s dedicated stereo outs with this setup. I’m sure it would be nothing short of amazing. “Remastering” my redbook CD's from 16/44.1 to 24/88.2 + ”Pure Audio” + Trinnov in analog stereo mode is a combination that has an fantastic sound.
I don’t know enough about Audyssey to know if it does any upsampling plus room correction in 2 channel stereo via RCA? Maybe someone could chime in about that. I would like to know. All I know is that now that I am spoiled by this 2 channel sonic “nirvana” and I hope that when the XMC-1 comes out that it will have something comparable to this feature because, man......I am hooked!
I intend to hang onto my 40% off card until the XMC-1 arrives. I am looking forward to comparing Tact with Trinnov!
Yamaha is stating about their RX-A820 model that seems at first glance to have Room Control that sounds similar to Trinnov. It also states that is has a feature called "center lift" which in a unique feature of Trinnov lifting the center speaker sound to the center of your TV screen:
"CINEMA DSP 3D provides a wide, high and dense sound field. HD Audio format decoding lets you enjoy HD Audio sources. Virtual Presence Speaker delivers 3-dimensional sound without actual use of Presence speakers. "
Curt from Trinnov reponds:
There are several 3D algorithms on the market that have real benefits to users- the discussion above indicates that Yamaha may have such a system and that it performs well. There are others that add wide channels, etc as a static choice (meaning that it's a fixed system). These implementations differ greatly from Trinnov Remapping, as Remapping is an active, automated process that takes place in your listening environment based on your physical arrangement.
Allow me to help clarify 3D Remapping, as implemented by Trinnov, vs what you may find in other units. As Jeff has indicated above, the real distinction to the very specific term coined by Trinnov, "2d or 3d Remapping" refers to the ability to locate speakers in a listening environment, and correctly position the acoustic image spatially, regardless of speaker placement. This capability is both unique and covered by international patents. The math involved requires the use of a Fourier Bessel transform, which required years of development to get right. The definition of 3D remapping applies to this process which differs from all other 3D solutions because, unlike all other systems, it's not static, and it truly separates the input channels from the speakers. Sounds become objects that are properly steered to their correct spatial orientation, regardless of speaker placement.
Center Channel Imaging Example
Let's take the case of the low center and add an additional variable that can happen in many systems: the L/R can't be symmetrically placed, such as a widely placed right speaker. The static system (ie Yamaha's) may be able to have an adjustment to "elevate the center," but the listener would then still have a image/spatial error of a wide image smear on the right side. As as more center elevation is added, the center image will shift to the right, pulled by the widely placed right speaker. Actually all information coming from the center an right speaker in this example would be smeared right and spatially distorted. Such errors do not occur with Trinnov Remapping, regardless of placement.
As for those of you trying to elevate the center image using Trinnov, the horizontal plane of the microphone combined with the height of the surrounding speakers will determine the image elevation. Remember that 2D does not correct height, only angle. Cinema = +/- 24 degrees L/R, Music = +/- 30 degrees (a wider frontal image). Music remapping is to the ITU standard, providing very accurate spatial reproduction for surround music content. BTW, my favorite 7.1 configuration for rooms that are wider then deep, with seating not far from the rear wall is to setup a traditional 5.1 placement, then add two wide speakers at about 50-60 degrees. With remapping, really fills in the front hole between the fronts and backs. Again, no need to have the wide speakers exactly symmetrically placed (doors, openings, windows, get in thre way of this), as Remapping will account for this.
I hope this helps clarify the important distinction of what Remapping is.